La Ralph shows up at Al Gore book signing.

[ronnykmarshall]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ8xOOm7aRg&search=al%20gore

I hope that they charged that asshole double.

[bahrbearian]

1. Yeah Blame it on Nader

To bad he tells the truth.

[ComerPerro]

2. He does. Bush and Gore are exactly the same, no?

:puke:

[Yollam]

41. They campaigned exactly the same.

Bush pretended to be a moderate, and Gore was a DLC guy going way back and played that up so that they almost seemed to meet at the middle.

Given his dad's more moderate governing style, I never would have figured POS Bush for such an ultra-right-winger. But I guess the folks in Texas expected it.

[texasleo]

45. So..... DLC 2, Bush family 0

interesting

[Yollam]

47. I'm not sure what you're saying here at all.

The DLC never won anything. Bill Clinton won in 92 and 96 strictly on his own merits. If anything, being DLC hurt Gore in 2000, especially the choice of Lieberman as VP. We can say Gore won all we want, but he needed a DECISIVE win to overcome fraud in Florida. Who would think picking a nebbishy right-wing Jewish guy would help the ticket? Lieberman's being Jewish hurt Gore in the conservative south, and Lieberman's being so right-wing hurt him in more liberal cities (with the possible exception of the Jewish enclaves in S. Florida).

[texasleo]

50. DLC is code around here for "centrist"

it's been expanded to include all ideology to the right of Ralph Nader and to the right of post-2004 Howard Dean. Nobody has ever run to the left of Al Gore and come close to winning nationwide. Nobody.

[Yollam]

53. Which Al Gore?

2006 Al Gore seems significantly to the left of 2000 AL Gore.


LBJ was to the left of Gore, and he beat right-winger Goldwater. What are you talking about?


DLC is not code for centrist - it's code for republican. It's CONSTRUED as "centrist", but there is nothing centrist about supporting illegal wars, tax cuts for the rich, deregulation of business and union-busting, and THAT is what the DLC is about.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

49. That's not the conventional wisdom.

The prevailing view (with which I agree) is that Gore ran away from the DLC in 2000. Here is one sample:

2. A Strong Indication that Gore parted ways with the DLC

Let us also look at this: no mention of Gore was made (but Clinton is mentioned) in this August 2000 "Hyde park
declaration": ...

supposedly DLC's scripture for their Appease/Calculate/Triangulate (ACT) philosophy of politics. They also opposed Gore's
populist "People, not the powerful" campaign in 2000.

Given that Gore was the party's nominee by then, not mentioning his name in their major "vision" document begs the question:
did the DLC brass (Al From etal) actually want Gore to win in 2000?

Remember that Gore endorsed Dean, the un-DLC, in 2004 over Lieberman. It may look like a mistake, but remember that Dean fell in 2004 precisely from DLC and rightwing attacks, and that the baseless smears that he was an "elitist Northeast liberal" and that "he is unelectable" came before his post-Iowa scream. The latter was essentially self-fulfilling prophesy. Yes, even after the scream (even which gained such notoriety only because it was taken out of context, played without the
background noise, and was played 700+ times in a span of a day or two, to make Dean seem to be something he isn't), there
are ways by which Howard could one day get elected as President, and he would make one hell of a President (as would Al
Gore, of course).

http://www.mydd.com/story/2006/6/15/125046/110

[Yollam]

55. Yes, he took on a populist tone...

But in my mind, he rejected the parts of the DLC that he should have embraced - namely Clinton. He should have used Clinton a LOT more. Any president who could have 70% approval during an IMPEACHMENT could only be an asset. I did not agree with a lot of Clinton's right-leaning policies, but he was a hell of a politician, and Gore should have used him.


And the one thing he should have rejected most of the DLC - Lieberman - he decided to pick for a running mate! Insanity.



Gore was a founding member of the DLC. He was pretty strongly linked to them still by the time of the 2000 campaign. And he hardly ran as a liberal. That and the fact that Bush completely masqueraded as a moderate made them look awfully similar on paper.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

63. My last on this.

He should have used Clinton a LOT more. Any president who could have 70% approval during an IMPEACHMENT could only be an asset.

I don't agree. Clinton's job approval remained high because the economy was roaring. But his personal approval rating was much lower. He reminded many swing voters of not only Monica, but the partisanship she exacerbated, which amazingly redounded to Bush's advantage because he was self-styled as a "different kind of Republican." There is poliing data showing Gore's limited use of Clinton was well-advised. I don't have it at my fingertips, but I have seen it.

And the one thing he should have rejected most of the DLC - Lieberman - he decided to pick for a running mate! Insanity.

Lieberman didn't have the extremely high negatives then that he has now. Due to Iraq, etc., Lieberman is now radioactive for progressives. That wasn't the case then and in fact the Lieberman nomination was well received, as indicated by the big bounce Gore got coming out of the convention. Of course, Gore and Lieberman have since parted ways.

He was pretty strongly linked to them still by the time of the 2000 campaign. And he hardly ran as a liberal.

I think that's pretty far off the mark. Here's another sample of quotes from David Sirota:

DLC ATTACKS DEMOCRATS FOR WAGING "CLASS WARFARE"

"DLC members complained Gore in 2000 reverted to a tired class warfare message, and at the 2002 DLC meeting, Lieberman triggered an ugly split when he accused Gore of ignoring the DLC message."
- Hartford Courant, 5/7/04

"Angry DLC leaders ganged up on Al Gore, charging that his leftist, class-warfare, anticorporate message in the 2000 election turned off millions of middle-of-the-road, investor-class voters. It was bad enough the founder of the centrist-leaning DLC, Al From, and its national chairman, Indiana Sen. Evan Bayh, both attacked the former Democratic presidential nominee. But, Mr. Gore's former running mate, Connecticut's Sen. Joe Lieberman, also stuck the knife into the man who put him on the ticket."
- Washington Times, 8/5/02

DLC ATTACKS DEMOCRATS FOR BEING "ANTI-CORPORATE" DURING ENRON SCANDAL IN SUMMER OF 2002

"Angry DLC leaders ganged up on Al Gore, charging that his leftist, class-warfare, anticorporate message in the 2000 election turned off millions of middle-of-the-road, investor-class voters."
- Washington Times, 8/5/02

"Lieberman went out of his way several times in the course of his speech to urge Democrats not to appear anti-business."
- Fox News, 7/29/02

"'You can't be pro-jobs and anti-business,' said Sen. Joseph Lieberman, D-Conn., chairman of the Senate Governmental Affairs Committee. Lieberman, a potential 2004 presidential contender, warned of 'the twin dangers of doing too little and doing too much.'
– AP, 7/11/02

http://www.davidsirota.com/2004/12/debunking-centrism.html

There are also several quotes indicating Al Form was extremely upset in real time with Gore's 2000 populism and that Gore was ignoring him. I apologize that I can't find them quickly. Gore did not sign the August 2000 DLC Hyde Park Declaration, a significant indication he had split completely.

Finally, I disagree about Bush campaigning as a moderate. He famously called himself a "compassionate consevative."

While there is some legitimate criticism of Gore's 2000 campaign (I've never seen a perfect one), I don't believe yours are on the money. Most criticism of Gore in 2000 has been wildly exaggerated by the MSM, which decided he was the villain of that cycle. See dailyhowler.com for details.

Many people, including Dems, have bought those inaccurate criticisms, because there has been hardly any fair, sympathetic or accurate reporting about Gore, with the exception of liberal bloggers. Perhaps that pattern is changing now that Gore is a movie star, but that remains to be seen.

Anyway, my bottom line is that an incumbent VP (strong historical disadvantage in presidential campaigns) who started out down about 20 points to Bush in March 1999 (when Bush seemed invincible) and actually came back to win, actually ran an excellent campaign. If he should have won handily, why did he start out with an almost impossible deficit in the polls in March, 1999?

The important thing to me (as I imagine it is to you) is not 2000, but 2006 and 2008. I think Gore is the best campaigner for congressional candidates in 2006 and the best candidate in 2008. I just thought this interchange was relevant for purposes of providing my view of what really happened in 2000. This is my last on this subthread, but I certainly won't be offended if you have further thoughts. See you around the forum!

[Yollam]

65. Thanks for your reply.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think Gore ran a bad campaign. I thought it could have been better on some points, but it was not bad. Citing the DLC's complaints about Gore doesn't indicate to me that he ran to the left, he just ran to the left of where they wanted. Look at their rhetoric.

"CLASS WARFARE"

leftist, class-warfare, anticorporate messag

turned off ...investor-class voters.

Lieberman ... urge(d) Democrats not to appear anti-business."

All of this is straight GOP rhetoric - simply more evidence that the DLC is a right-wing trojan horse, and not even remotely "centrist"


As for Lieberman, I agree with your characterization of his not being kryptonite as he is now. However, he was known to be very conservative - not good in many cities, and he was Jewish, which sadly, is a huge handicap in the south. I firmly believe that if Gore had picked someone else, he could have done better in the south and won his own state, which he lost narrowly, which would have been enough for him to win the electoral college.


I agree that Gore would be a good candidate in 2008. I'm going to wait a while before I decide who I think is "best", as there are a number of promising people, and we can't be sure he will run again.

[montana500]

81. You nailed it.

Without Nader's lies, Gore wins Florida.

[marmar]

5. I agree that Ralph Nader has been an important voice...

and a fighter for Joe Public. But his arrogance and self-aggrandizing during the 2000 election really diminished his rep with me. I don't think you can blame him for the election result - we can blame a corrupted voting system and the partisan Supreme Court for that - but I think his legacy has been tarnished by his hubris.

[bahrbearian]

6. Yes he does have Hubris

but he also has a legacy of fighting the Corporate Fascism.

[ronnykmarshall]

8. His legacy will be helping install Bush.

For all the good he's done, he pissed it all away in 2000.

Arrogant bastard.

[Jara sang]

44. I'm going to have to agree with this.

I like Ralph, but he fucked up royally in 2000.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

67. I disagree with you

and could get nasty in my argument, but I can't bring myself to do it to someone with such a cool and cute donkey sig.

[Kahuna]

11. Where is he fighting that corporate fascism now? Oops! I forgot..

with all repuke rule he is powerless just like the rest of us to get our voices heard. Good going Ralphie. :sarcasm:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

18. Except where his own employees are concerned..then he is

anti-union and anti- living wage

[ronnykmarshall]

31. Fo' real?

I never heard that.

[Demoiselle]

23. In this fight, what battles has Nader won? eom

[Admiral Loinpresser]

Ralph, like Bob Woodward, is a former hero,

someone (like William Jennings Bryan) whose career went too long, tarnishing his legacy.

I voted for him in '96. Today, I wouldn't piss down his throat if his heart was on fire.

[fujiyama]

76. Good post

Some actions have larger consequences than others.

Nader's ultimate legacy will be in helping turn the '00 election to Bush. No, it wasn't soley his fault but at this point, whatever he fought for is in great jeapordy (if not already destroyed) and will continue to be for many years to come.

His arrogance got the best of him. I had read even back in the day he was a difficult person to work with. His cult of personality will however always live on.

[ronnykmarshall]

7. Yeah ....

Like there's not difference between Bush and Gore.

Try again.

[bahrbearian]

10. Gore is my man

but to blame Nader for a stolen election is just pouting.

[ronnykmarshall]

15. Oh boo fucking hoo!

You can't tell me that if La Ralph wasn't on the ballot that Gore would have won by the percentage that could NOT be stolen.

Cry me a fucking river over St. :puke: Ralph.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

19. OK let's review

He ran heavily in swing states in 00 and o4. He certainly didn't put up a fight in safe Repub states, only swing states and safe DEM states. In 04 he did the same thing and hired the dirt bucket registration firm known as Nathan Sproul and Associates, a firm that was caught trashing Dem voter registrations

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Yeah, but he did it with righteous intentions!

:sarcasm:

[Kahuna]

9. He told the truth so well that we have a fuckin dictatorship in the

good ole USA? Think we would have had that under Democrats?

[Warpy]

16. Yeah, if Gore had kicked the DLC to the curb and adopted

the best parts of Nader's platform he'd have been unbeatable.

Stupid offered the illusion of tax cuts. The DLC offered working stiffs absolutely nothing but business as usual.

The only wonder is that the race was close enough for Stupid's cabal to steal.

[texasleo]

46. right, the far left always wins

:nopity:

[Warpy]

48. False choice.

Spare me

[texasleo]

51. spare yourself

the left has never won.
Never.

Not the left that's represented in the Nader and Neo-Dean camps.

[ulysses]

56. maybe they

buy the wrong shoes. :shrug:

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

69. um......FDR?

He won some kind of big office 4 times, last I checked

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

80. Wow, you wrote that with gusto.

"The left has never won. Never."

Did you hear the Star-Spangled banner playing in the background as you wrote that? Did tears come to your eyes?

(By the way, I don't think Gore had to emulate Nader. Steering clear of Lieberman would be enough.)

[Admiral Loinpresser]

52. Gore did precisely that in 2000.

I.e. kicking the DLC to the curb. See my post #49 above for the quote and link.

Al From hated the way Gore campaigned in 2000, attacking the pharmaceuticals and insurance companies and appealing to the people directly.

Gore ran a helluva campaign, coming from 20 points back in March 1999 to win. All that in spite of a strong head wind composed of Ralph, Monica, GOP big money and the worst MSM attacks against any candidate ever. Not to mention FelonGate in Florida and other illegal campaign tactics of BushCo. The fact that he won is still amazing to me.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

68. the one time gore talked left (the convention) he pulled ahead

then, after he went right again during the debates (agreeing with bush 41 times in one, as michael moore observed), he saw his lead vanish. if the country was going to vote for a rw-er they would go with the real thing

[Uncle Joe]

83. If Bush said the sun rises in the east, and you did not agree,

who looks like the idiot.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

17. Too bad Ralph is insulated enough financially to weather things

getting worse before they get better.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

70. right and al is penniless?

ad hominem stupidity

[Lusted4]

21. Nader would not have signed NAFTA . n/t

[fujiyama]

77. Ralph would never have had the chance

to sign OR veto NAFTA because he was never and never will be elected president.

[DefenseLawyer]

28. Ralph definitely told the truth

when he said he wouldn't give back all the Republican cash he got to finance his ridiculous 2004 campaign.

[Warren DeMontague]

29. How about telling the truth about the GOP right-wingers he had running his

state campaigns in 2004?

Or the Republican "spoiler" money he took?

Nader is a self-serving prick who only cares about his inflated ego. Whatever good he did in his life has been negated by the fact that he hasn't been able to see past his own head for the past seven years.

Fuck him.

[bahrbearian]

58. Can ,We say the same about Hilliary?

[Warren DeMontague]

64. Something Hillary and Ralph Nader both have in common:

I liked and respected them a shitload more about seven years ago.

[Admiral Loinpresser]

43. You mean like

1. saying Gore was an environmental "poseur?"

2. saying there was no difference between the parties?

3. saying he (Nader) wouldn't campaign in swing states?

There were three candidates in 2000 but only one truth teller:

Al Gore

[liberalhistorian]

54. Yeah, especially his alliance

with that fat ignoramus, Grover Norquist. When are Naderites gonna get their heads out of the sand and get a fucking clue that their guy ain't who he claims to be and that he cost us the 2000 election and he KNEW there was a strong possibility he would do so?

[MADem]

3. That bastard is a media whore, an attention freak

I hope they charged him TRIPLE, the putz!

[Minnesota Libra]

4. Nader surfaces again - must be an election coming nt

[Old and In the Way]

12. Poor Ralph...no one's paying attention to him anymore.

It takes a lot of chutzpah to crash Al's event. C'mon Ralph, you have no better way of getting attention? Ask your Republican buddies, I'm sure they can arrange some facetime on one of their corporate talking heads shows.

[90-percent]

13. Michael Moore

Mike had suggested to Nader late in the 2000 election that he should ask his "base" to not vote for him, but vote for Gore instead.

This would have given Gore the Election and Nader would have held a great influence in Gore's admin.

Ralph wouldn't entertain the thought, as he felt he would have betrayed his supporters.

In hindsight, Ralph BLEW IT!

Yeah, I know Gore really won and I'm not GETTING OVER IT!

-85% Jimmy

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

71. that's one thing michael moore flat out lies about

i was at the nader superrally in d.c. two days before the election and mike campaigned hard for ralph and blasted gore

it wasn't until '04 that mike started telling this story. i guess it worked and got him a seat at the DNC

[Uncle Joe]

14. Well at least today Ralph knows a good book when he sees one.

Some people will still be bitter with him and for good reason, however I still believe this to be a good development. If we are to stop global warming and or put Al in the White House to do it, we need to be united.

Kicked and recommended

:kick:

[ronnykmarshall]

20. Good point Uncle J.

La Ralph still have to swim through shark infested waters wearing his "good luck ham" before I forgive him.

On a light note here's clips of Al Gore from Letterman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FxVi2-M4fc&search=al%20gore

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf7s0kTlftg&search=al%20gore

[renate]

26. no light note needed

... after your "good luck ham" comment! :spray:

:rofl:

[ronnykmarshall]

33. Doncha love that one?

It's from an old Carol Burnett skit. Tim Conway said it when they did a "Jaws" spoof. Harvey and Vicki tried REAL hard not to lose it.

[fujiyama]

78. Perhaps

but I see it more as a man that has lost all friends and allies trying to gain media spotlight and attention once again.

Nader's fault wasn't in running in '00. It was that he lied and has never recanted them. Many of his apologists will frequently bash the media for their lies, but Nader was even more blatant. He claimed Bush and Gore would be the same. He even claimed that we would be at war weeks after Gore spoke out against it.

At this point, Al Gore doesn't need Ralph Nader. Al Gore will cement his legacy as a great vice president, a man robbed of the presidency, and as a strong advocate of the environment. Ralph Nader will simply go down in history as a man that helped George Bush win one of the closest elections in US history. His previous legacy, destroyed by his own ego.

[Uncle Joe]

79. I agree with just about your entire post fujiyama,

however I also believe it's not over yet and while Al Gore does not need Nader to cement his legacy, Al will nonetheless accept Nader's help with grace because this is who Al is. This is just one more of many reasons as to why I believe Al Gore is THE leader of our times.

[Hubert Flottz]

22. Al should have punched him in the big old snout!

Ralph helped Bin Laden more than Saddam did! If Al Gore had been president like America wanted, 9/11 probably would have never happened.

[mavoix]

32. If Al Gore had been president like America wanted, 9/11 probably would hav

Them's my words exactly...glad someone agrees with me. I've been convinced since 9/12/01 that it happened because this arrogant administration added fuel to the fire that was already burning in the Islamic world against US imperialism.

[Hubert Flottz]

57. That...and the fact that Bush stopped the FBI and CIA from...

investigating anything about any Saudis in the summer of 01!(15 of the 19 attackers were Saudis) The feds were bringing too much heat on Poppy Bush's Saudi bidness partners, so junior put the brakes on our Intel guys, who might have nabbed some of Benny's boys before 9/11. I remember the FBI guys were leaking info to the media, about being ordered to stop looking into Saudi activity such as international money transactions, early in the summer of 01.(June of July) I have, since 9/11, looked for the info about this, which I saw in at least two places on the internet and FOR SOME STRANGE REASON, it seems to have vanished into thin air.

[ulysses]

24. LOL

[bahrbearian]

25. good one

[ulysses]

27. I'm just still amused

at how we're supposed to pay attention to every public appearance by someone who, we're told, is so irrelevant. :D

[conflictgirl]

34. The reaction to this one oughta be good

:popcorn:

[ronnykmarshall]

36. Why do you think I posted it?

Here's a nice co-cola.

[mdmc]

35. Gore Nader 2008!

:patriot:

[d_b]

38. That sounds good!

[seabeyond]

40. nader took money from repugs in 2004. like running lieberman

as vp

[mdmc]

60. lol

maybe Kucinich as veep :)

[seabeyond]

61. mdmc

i will support anyone over the repugs. but i will support anyone enthusiastically without nader, wink.

and that isnt the only reason. i wasnt bothered by nader until 2004. and a lot had to do with listening to him that discouraged me so much with him

[mdmc]

62. I hear that

the poor man is getting old. I hope someone new can come along and pick up the banner. I am a Dem, but there needs to be someone talkin progressive... Someone...

[AtomicKitten]

37. Those some 97,000 Nader votes in Florida would have come in handy in 2000.

Thanks, Ralph.

[ronnykmarshall]

42. Damn right.

Not to mention the ones in NH as well.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

75. yeah, but like I said, some of those 97,000 votes might have come in handy

and made the election a little harder to steal in Florida in 2000.

A pretty innocuous comment, dude, particularly in retrospect.

But thanks for taking it upon yourself to extrapolate and getting all Nader-is-god on us.

[seabeyond]

39. ralph the ass that says no difference between dem and repug

that ralph,.... had the audacity to jump into gore global warming, like bushie boy is doing anything about the issue. the one that says nothing different between gore and bush

asshole

[NYCGirl]

59. I'd like to see Al do to Nader what he does to his co-star here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BjrOi4vF24&feature=Views&page=1&t=t&f=b

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

66. Ralph and Al have been talking for quite some time now

Who knows? Had Al been more receptive to consumer/populist initiatives while V-P, Ralph may not have been compelled to run in 2000. Gore earned a third party opponent that time.

But that's all in the past. Al has impressed me and won my respect beyond words post 9-11. The back to his-roots Gore has my vote locked up.

So quit screwing around Al and fucking run!!!

[johnaries]

72. Whatever happened in the past, they are on the same side.

I distinctly heard Al say "it's really great to see you again" and "thank you very much" after Al signed a copy of his book for Ralph.

If Ralph knew then what he knows now, who knows what he would have done. But they are definitely on the same side of Global Warming and the Environment. Please, can we stop the fighting and get the Repukes out of office?

[Terran1212]

73. One justice advocate to another DON'T DEMONIZE RALPH!!!

He's done about as much as Gore for the people and a hell of a lot more than Kerry.

[ronnykmarshall]

82. If the pitch fork fits .......