an observation of DU. Most here have no problems with each

[madokie]

of our own different ideas of religion or sexuality. Where else can you be in the company of others where these two topics won't turn nasty and cause a lot of flame wars. Even a lot of respect for the different concepts of politics displayed here. DU :yourock:

[patrice]

1. I like the diversity here. It's interesting.

[madokie]

2. That is why it is so informative. a persons race, gender or income

levels are never a subject of discussion with the exception of the ultra rich but they don't come here anyways so they don't matter. It's a great big family. The DU family, ahh that just rows off the ole tongue so fluid like.

[annabanana]

3. of course there are topics that get us all

hot under the collar.

~keeps things lively~

[madokie]

4. Oh yeah, but that adds the the entertainment factor

[patrice]

88. Family is also a verb here, in addition to being a noun.

I hope you'll pardon my neo-logism here, but Families family. It's what a thing does that makes it what it is.

I like thinking of the DU as a verb too, since it can be family too. This is a very active place.

[smoogatz]

5. It's just everything else.

From what kind of car you drive, what kind of food you eat, where you shop and what kind of house you live in--and whether you refer to it as "vote fraud" or "election fraud," and how dare you suggest that DLCers aren't REAL Democrats, and if you don't believe that MISSILES hite the WTC you must be some kind of government SHILL...!!!!

[seabeyond]

12. if you smoke, drink, use an ipod in public, talk on cell phones in public

kids, don't have kids, are a kid.... bah hahhahaha. put sunscreen on a kid, go to a private school, register a pet, are a southerner, live in texas, have family that is repug suppose to hate them, spank, helmets, seatbelts, own a house to big, are an employer, drive an suv, own a gun,

[smtpgirl]

6. Because this website is Democratic Undreground, NOT

Free Republic, maybe we can tolerate each other without flame wars.

I like the conversations here, I know I would not be welcomed at Free Republic or any of those other right-leaning websites.

This place is cool and mature.

[ladjf]

7. I can handle any amount of disagreement on the political issue

as long at the writers are amateur bloggers in search of the best thing for America and Americans. What I can't deal with are those certain, may I say , professional posters, who have an agenda that has nothing to do with either the truth or America's best interests. Their hallmark style is to respond to posts with cutting, insults about the mental capabilities of the poster. They rarely attack on the basis of regular debate of the issues. They will often say things like, "Well, it's obvious that you are more of an expert than , bla, bla,...". Or, one of their favorite techniques is to demand that you give about 50 sites to back up your opinion. If you are crazy enough to do the assignment that they gave you, they will say, "all of those sites are known to be bogus." They don't want the truth, they simply want to discredit your post. The best response to those kinds is to do nothing.

[Ezra the Prankster]

8. I just joined in the past week and...

...It seems like a good place to come to find out what Democrats are thinking about, and, more importantly, trying to find solutions to. Most sites I join are just a waste of time because the people there are more concerned with proving they're right and anyone who thinks they know important things that most people don't must be wrong. As if independant thought has stopped being a useful tool and has become a f*cking fashion statement. Life sure ain't easy when you're a pioneer in the most controversial field of study in history, the government is under the control of people who consider your occupation a sign of the immanent arrival of the Antichrist, and so many of the people who oppose them try to force everyone to live at equally low intellectual levels to try to make everyone feel equally important.

(And incidentally, I'm not a Democrat, I'm a Conscientious Citizen of Earth. There are no previously existing political systems or political parties that can adequately serve humanity, because every political system that has ever worked has worked because its founders figured out how to apply laws of human behavior to the people's living conditions well enough that enough people were willing to cooperate with the artificial laws of the society to make the society function. But no one has ever realized this before, so as the living conditions change, the artificial laws become less and less applicable to the living conditions, and conflict with human behavior more and more under those conditions. That means that more and more people will start breaking the law, which will only make the dysfunctional government seem ever more necessary to protect the public. The only way to construct a political system that could serve the needs of its people and adapt to the changing world would be to construct it on a universal understanding of the evolutionary origins of human behavior. That universal understanding of human behavior exists, but is only a few years old-- I know this because I helped discover it myself. A lot of Democrats and other people are figuring this out little by little, while a lot of Democratic leaders and Republicans in general aren't even trying. But President You-Know-Who is doing a lot to prevent the public from learning enough about the origins of human behavior to ever be able to build a functional political system. So although I'm not a Democrat, finding this site has been like sighting an island from a lifeboat adrift on the high seas.)

[ConsAreLiars]

28. Your views are very well developed and worth reading, but, bear in mind

that forums like this are case studies in Attention Deficit Disorder, and the fewer words you need to make your point the greater the likelihood that more a than a few readers will get it.

[annabanana]

86. Nailed it in a nutshell! (May I steal it?)

"As if independent thought has stopped being a useful tool and has become a f*cking fashion statement."

This is precisely the attitude I've encountered.

[Generic Brad]

9. I'm not fully convinced

I have been called a Freeper and a Republican on this site because I forgot to add the sarcasm :sarcasm: icon to at least one post. Had it not been for the astute deletion of my un intendedly offensive post by a moderator I would no longer be contributing here. Unless a person has at least 1000 posts attached to their names I see them routinely driven away by DU'ers with more than 1000 posts.

I acknowledge that we all have to make our bones before we are fully accepted into this community. And I fully intend to earn my stripes. Since I have been a lurker for the past five years and have finally became brave enough to speak my mind and donate to DU, I finally feel comfortable posting here. I fully agree that religion and sexual orientation is not attacked here, but I cannot say the same for political comments that do not appear to tow the official Democratic party line.

Again, I am not trying to make myself a pariah in this community. This is the one web site in the whole blogosphere where I feel comfortable enough to post and feel at home. But I have seen many newbies driven away merely because they presented a conservative concern or one Republican talking point. If someone decides this is the site they want to call home, they are neither a freeper or Republican at heart. Not everyone new here is a Karl Rove plant!

[DefenseLawyer]

10. Freeper!

Just kidding.

[Generic Brad]

11. Thanks for just kidding

I have paid a personal price to be here. My freeper family has permanently kicked me out of their lives because I could no longer follow the family stance on gay and interracial marriage and the Republican party line. I was too much of an embarrassment to them :sarcasm:.

Plus they demanded that I no longer post at DU! Screw them!

I confess I feel more at home at DU than any other place. But I do feel for newbies who get driven out of here because they come off as being too Libertarian or as socially conscientious Republicans.

[FairVotes4all]

15. Wow, thats sad.

A good third of my mother's side of my family has semi-disowned me ever since they easedropped on a conversation that was extremely critical of Shrubya.

[Erika]

18. I thought GOP liked the first amendment

So how do they defend their action against free speech?

[sylva]

33. Probably the same way DU does.

[sylva]

14. Thank you!

Just because we don't have a thousand posts, doesn't mean we arent experienced politically. If John Kerry posted one post today, he'd have less than I do--but HE'S hardly a 'newbie'.

I appreciate that DU doesn't exist to build the party base--they've said that a MILLION times--BUT I wish it wouldn't work so hard at ALIENATING LOYAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY MEMBERS.

So many here want to 'tell the teacher' on those they 'don't like'--which is pretty chickenhearted, really--and to what end? What do they 'win' or accomplish if they convince some moderator friend to banish someone? EVERY clique can do THAT--IT'S CHILDISH.

It's hurt the Democratic party more than you know.

[Erika]

17. Give an example

on alienating the base. Thank you.

I see no posts on banning other than yours, what are you talking about?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sylva]

47. YOOHOO! HERE'S AN EXAMPLE!

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

20. No response? n/t

[sylva]

27. Have patience--I have other people to talk to.

[Erika]

30. Ok. Yeah sure.

[Random_Australian]

16. For the 1000+ crowd, enough emotional investment means that

many would be vulnerable if they did not suspect those with few posts, but that does not make it fair. Sometimes, especially when someone puts forward a RW talking point, people out to calmly set out what is wrong with it, because, after all, there are many skilled talkers, so it is invetible that sometimes they sound ok, when in fact talking crap.

Sad to see.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sylva]

29. Um...if I give an example, I'll get kicked off, too....duh!

[Erika]

34. And, if so, would you shrivel up and die

about getting kicked off a political board? Just imagine what our troops in Iraq face in W's war.

[sylva]

39. Of course not--but then we couldn't finish our conversation.

[Erika]

41. I don't wish a conversation

Just an example.

[sylva]

43. LOL! Then stop posting to me!

[Erika]

48. Just drawing you in

slowly and steadily.

[sylva]

50. LOL! Um...not quite!

I'M ALWAYS HERE, ERIKA!

[sylva]

54. I THINK...I'll go post in my OTHER SEVERAL NAMES NOW!

And I have a secret decoder ring from Secret Squirrel Program Inc.!

[Erika]

55. Cluckers are that way

I expected it totally.

[sylva]

31. Read number 9, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Random_Australian]

35. Hmmmm, there are some things that have been found to be simply

too controversial to be discussed rationally here, that is the price for such a big umbrella. Enjoy your stay here, but remember, if there is something that you are banned from talking about here, then it is something you are only going to be able to discuss with like minded people anyway.

My $0.05

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Random_Australian]

56. Learn to phrase, and get to know some clever DUers well, and you can

have all questions answered. A little patience is goes a long way.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Random_Australian]

64. Might I introduce you to the effects of mediated cognition, ie. the

possibility that there is some difference to how you percieve reality, and how it really is.

eg. Phrasing needs careful attention, because while in other contexts something might be fine, this community has some things that must be spoken of correctly to actually get your point across.

Don't laugh at the admins, it is most unbecoming of you.

[Erika]

66. You Aussies are so diplomatic! Good for you!

[Random_Australian]

68. Just me. I prefer it when DU is nice and calm, and we can chat pretty

freely, so I do what I can. :)

[Erika]

72. Me too.

So be it. America is not a calm or cohesive place right now.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

69. Personal attacks are against the rules

Got under your skin, huh?

[sylva]

71. Then don't do them! LOL!

[sylva]

74. Weren't you TRYING to be funny???

Oopsie-doodle! You're too easy Erika! LOL!

[Random_Australian]

73. You know, given that Erika is not included in "the banners" , I am forced

to conclude things.

As for her saying they are afraid, I would like to point out a technique of communication I have found most useful thus far, letting them speak for themselves and attempting to determine more about the poster in question. More precisely, I would regard such a short time as from the 17th of June is insufficient to properly come to grips with what someone dissimilar to oneself thinks.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Random_Australian]

78. Only if they do something reminiscent of the FReeps.

You see, we get them on a regular basis, people using such lines as "I am just a confused dem" or "I have this concern" as a launching platform for all sorts of evil, and when attacked, claim that people are alienating ordinary dems.

If someone posts stuff similar to that, then they will be banned, though it is possible that they are no troll, of course, it is not really worth it to take the time, when we have such a broad spectrum of agreement here on DU, from so many different systems of belief.

That is why phrasing is so important.

[ConsAreLiars]

21. A hint

Posting dittohead slogans, even if meant "sarcastically," only shows the extent of your indoctrination. Everyone has heard that crap, and 99% here have no desire to hear it repeated. Instead of repeating the official line, ask questions or add new content. IPost numbers have little to do with it.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

19. This isn't a board for right wingers. Read the rules

I doubt if there is a DU member who hasn't been kicked off at least one right wing site for a progressive post.

[sylva]

22. I SAID that...

Just because this isn't a board for right wingers doesn't mean you have to work so hard at alienating left wingers.

And, it's fine to keep people out if you can't handle them being here--but don't then pat yourself on the back that we're SO tolerant, don't march in lockstep, or that we all get along so great. If you don't allow people in with whom you DON'T get along, of COURSE it's gonna look easy--what clubhouse DOESN'T?

[Erika]

24. Can you give an example?

That's been repeatedly asked of you. Can you respond by giving an example?

[sylva]

32. And I've repeatedly posted logically why I can't.

When are you going to get it?

[Erika]

36. I guess I don't understand your fear of a political board

When are you going to "get it".

[sylva]

44. I don't understand your fear of people who post differently than you do.

People here are absolutely paranoid about a differing point of view.

[Erika]

46. Fear is a republican thing

They beat the drum all the time. It's not a democrat thing.

[sylva]

51. I see TONS of it here everyday! Every post!

[Erika]

53. But no examples

Fear of being banned on a political board?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sylva]

62. And you ignored them all!

I've seen you do that before.....

[Erika]

65. huh? n/t

[sylva]

76. A n d y o u i g n o r e d t h e m a l l (better?)

[hfojvt]

81. there is no logical reason for it to be about fear

There are two examples of bannable behaviour - disruption and non-progressivity. There is no good reason to allow the first. It would be like having a chess club and allowing people to come in and knock pieces over while other people are trying to play chess. Any sensible chess club would have rules banning such people.

As for the 2nd, clearly alot of non-progressivity is allowed since no one, not even Michael Moore or John Edwards is perfectly progressive (although I think DK is, but sadly, unelectable), even if you could find 5,000 DUers who agreed on what it means to be perfectly progressive. But there is a hugh difference between being imperfectly progressive and being Joe Lieberman - a person who claims to be a Democrat, but has nothing but criticism for Democrats and nothing but praise for Bush. Why allow such a person when they are pretending to be something they are clearly not.

I write from experience too as a red-state Democrat who is mostly economically progressive and kinda socially conservative that I have annoyed many a DUer and challenged what I would call the liberal conventional wisdom when I thought it was more conventional than it was wise. Of course it is a mystery and disappointment to some that I am still alive here. Maybe the bricks help :hide: or maybe quoting Somerby or sometimes talking about how much I hate the BFEE agenda helps too. One must take a break from being a gadfly when your fellows start preparing a cup of hemlock.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Erika]

38. Then why are you playing a game?

I asked for an example and you never gave it.

[sylva]

40. Of course I did--you don't choose to see it.

[Erika]

45. Sure

OK. We've had six years of this smoke and mirrors. The players are more pathetic than the administration who promotes the garbage.

[sylva]

49. YOOHOO! HERE'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE!

[hfojvt]

58. we certainly do not get along that great

Heck, the immigration wars are only now cooling down a little bit, but they could flare up again at any time. Anti illegal immigration people were called racists by pro-immigration people, or at least it was constantly stated something like "people are only against immigration because they are racist" or that "it's all about race". Plus the Rove indictment/Leopold-Truthout police action (okay it was more of a war than a police action) is still simmering, with hurt feelings on both sides.

So there are plenty of DUers who do not get along with other DUers and there are a variety of opinions on such issues as immigration, the death penalty, guns, etc. It isn't about people getting axed because the collective "we" do not get along with them. It is usually because "they" did not follow the rules - rules about posting flame-bait, RW talking points, or failing to maintain civil discourse.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sylva]

70. Don't complain when the Republicans make THEIR own rules, then.

Perfect answer.

[sylva]

77. Bye--eeeee (I'm ALWAYS here, tho!)

I hope you feel better one day!

[Erika]

79. huh? n/t

[NMMNG]

83. My thoughts exactly

:crazy:

[hfojvt]

82. can you name names?

Dookus, Whocountsthevotes, Chairone, Jiacinto, Nightrain, Jesus Saves, Kissmyashcroft?

Because all we have is your, or perhaps their, opinion as to why they got banned.

And DU being a Democratic forum specifically does not allow people to encourage voting 3rd party. It could easily be the way they touted the position and not the position they touted that did them in.

[Just Me]

80. Unfortunately, I've witnessed some pretty gross manipulation,...

,...on this forum: lost many humanitarians and passionate independents and progressives because THEY were punished rather than the culprits who intentionally pushed their buttons or there was a complete failure to mediate or remedy (I used to suggest a sort of "remedial forum" but that didn't happen). I'll withhold judgment, state my observations.

Yes. I am tolerant of differences until those differences become a means of division/confusion/manipulation/control. I've learned to basically ignore manipulative blow-hards to avoid being banned for open expression against such abuse. But, with respect to DU, I'll withhold judgment and wish it progression/improvement.

[hyphenate]

84. You are right

It's called "tolerance." And DU definitely has more than most other groups.

On an individual basis, I don't care one whit that everyone might have different beliefs in one way or another from my own. It's their choice. It's when I see preaching, pushing beliefs on others and proselytizing that I get pissed off.

People should have the right to believe in anything they please. Everyone comes from a different background, a different list of priorities in life and it's not difficult to understand why some people are the way they are. It's normal. But when someone tries to tell ME that I'm wrong in whatever I personally believe, and that I NEED to be "converted" that I take a very strong oppositional manner. I have as much right to believe in whatever I want to as well. Which is why I've come to hate the religious right so much. By their rantings, you would think that anyone other than themselves is completely wrong and as a result everyone but them is going to hell regardless of what we think, do or say.

I've shut that out of my mind and have condemned them as irrational, ignorant and completely without a clue. It's difficult sometimes to shut them out, but it's essential to well-being.

But back to DU: the point is that DUers are not as judgmental as a lot of others in our current world. Many have had enough encounters with the fundie mindset to know what it's like to be attacked for a belief system, and try to keep that in mind when dealing with others. That's the best part of humanity, and definitely worth becoming part of.

[triplementor]

85. Yes, that sure is nice around here...

... and I'm a newbie. :hippie:

[annabanana]

87. Welcome to DU!

:toast: