More on the lake that dried up. What the owners did in the 70s.

[madfloridian]

I wrote about this dried up lake previously. It has been closed off to the public for many years.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/150

But I did not know about this 70s event and had a modicum of sympathy. What they are going to try to do again now, which of course they will have to get state permission to do, is just overboard for a private lake. I saw red when I read this article. I had no idea all this was going on then. I had sympathy, but after reading this I lost it...at least for today.

They tapped into other water resources, they bought their own pump which ran 24 hours a day until they pumped their lake back again. I will fight them if they want to do this again. Our Florida underground system is too fragile to do this for a private lake that has now drained for the second time.



http://theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060624/NEWS/606240370/1039

Repair of Scott Lake May Use Old Remedy

Homeowners pumped well water into the lake after it was drained in the 1970s.

LAKELAND -- Scott Lake has sprung a leak, actually several leaks, and all the water has disappeared down what could be as many as four sinkholes. More than 30 years ago, homeowners on the lake faced a similar dilemma when the water mysteriously disappeared.

No one's sure of the exact date or why the water went away. Curry said he thinks it was sometime in 1974, but other residents said it could have been a year or two earlier. The Southwest Florida Water Management District could not fix the date, either.

What they did:

Swiftmud cut a small channel from Scott Lake, beneath Old Scott Lake Road, connecting to a nearby water source.

What water source? Another lake?

What else they did:

Rather than wait on Mother Nature, Curry, Miller and other neighbors spurred by the late Bernie Little, the beer distributor, came up with a novel idea to replenish the lake, which never dried up totally.

They split the cost of sinking a well and pumping groundwater into the lake, something that could never happen today without a state water-use permit, engineering studies and lots of time.

I doubt the public will be happy with their getting permission to do this again. But they are very wealthy, influential people, and they just might get it done.



"Swiftmud was not around, or we would not have been able to do it," Miller said."

So was the Southwest Florida Water Management District around then or not. I don't like the sound of the rest of the article, that a huge lake like this for private use only could use our public resources again.

[salvorhardin]

1. That's insane behavior

Truly insane.

[yardwork]

2. They should hang it up.

Their talk of "plugging the sinkholes" is laughable. They don't have lakefront property anymore. They've got a park.

I have zero sympathy. They should take a look at what Mother Nature did to New Orleans.

[FogerRox]

3. tending the pump........

Henry Stern, a retired physician who has lived on the lake for 38 years, said the pump was purchased for $30,000.

He recalls keeping watch daily as the water gradually inched back to its normal level.

"It took about a year," said Stern, 91. "It came up around a quarter-inch a week. It was slow going."

snip.....

After state water regulations became effective in 1976, Polk County became the first entity to apply for a water-use permit to keep the pump project active.

[madfloridian]

5. Good old Henry, I remember him.

I know a lot of the folks there, and I feel a sense of detachment to them now.

They are not even aware of their callous nature anymore.

[madfloridian]

8. " keep the pump project active"

Using our public resources for their private exclusive lake.

[ovidsen]

4. This is just bizarre

I hadn't read your Journal entry about the "lake" until just now. I might have a little sympathy for the people who had enjoyed it if they had only let people living outside their gated hideaway use it.

And now they're going to have one helluva mosquito problem.

Karma, man! Karma.

[opihimoimoi]

6. I think its a private lake and therefore a private prob

if it was open to the public...the State would be ob'd to fix it....but its not open to the Public...guess what?

Its the owners prob....

Next?

[BlueJazz]

10. No..It's actually a state lake...(I live in Florda) But these fuckers...

...have built fences on every square foot of the damn place to keep out
"The Scum" (regular folks) and NOW they want everybody to feel sorry for them and
also want the state engineers to help out.

I say Fuck-Um...Tear down all your steel fences and we'll talk..

[madfloridian]

12. Here are two letters to the editor that might explain it a little more.

http://theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060623/NEWS/606230311/1037/EDIT

It is state owned, but it is also private...someone forgot to renew some lease somehow somewhere.

The people there are not clued in to the real world of normal people, they really think they deserve their own lake. They are influential people.

[BlueJazz]

13. Ahh..I see Thanks!

[acmejack]

7. Bernie Miller and his yacht business, big money.

Ms Budweiser reknown also, he cut a wide swath in those parts back then
.

[dipsydoodle]

9. I'm totally amazed.

at the cheek of it. Tell them to line the lake and get a figure to fill it up using bottled water from a supermarket. Might just give them some sense of value. It's quite odd how some folk just take water abstraction, in volume, for granted - seems to be a function of how rich they are.

Might be better if they just left it be and have a park in front of their homes instead.:rofl:

[dipsydoodle]

11. I've had an idea !

Contact Walmart and tell them you know where there's some land on which they could build an
even bigger warehouse than the one on the deposed Urban Farm in LA.:)

[Generic Other]

14. Let them fill it with bottled water

that they buy at Costco!

[Joanne98]

22. Evian and Perrier!!!!! Don't forget the caviar!!!!!!

[lpbk2713]

15. I drove by there this morning.

It looks like a mud flat and you can smell dead fish long before you get there. I had to chuckle to myself.


Sure as hell they will expect Joe Sixpack to bail them out and the Jebster will be more than happy to do what he can for these influential taxpayers. Then after the lake is restored to its previous level the fences and the "No Trespassing" signs will go right back up just like it was before.

[elehhhhna]

27. Let's demand FEMA gets right on it.

[mom cat]

16. Don't worry. When the Greenland and Anartic ice sheets melt, the lake will

fill up as will all the houses with more than enough water for everyone. :sarcasm:

[madfloridian]

17. Paine's Prairie near Gainesville was once a lake...

I did not know that. Good article on sinkholes and lakes in Florida.

http://theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060624/NEWS/606240373/1039

What experts do know is that this is not the first time a lake has had a sinkhole. Alachua Lake, near Gainesville, once allowed steamers to haul fruit from Micanopy to Gainesville. But it drained 8 feet in 10 days in the 1800s -- leaving thousands of rotting fish, according to a Florida parks Web site.

The lake never returned. It is now known as Paynes Prairie Preserve State Park. It's home to wild horses, sandhill cranes and bison.

Scott Lake also could mimic Lake Jackson in Tallahassee.

Lake Jackson acts like a bathtub about every 25 years, when sinkholes open and drain portions of the lake, according to a Department of Environmental Protection webpage."

They need to leave it alone at Scott Lake.

[onethatcares]

18. I just came back from that area

and those people just don't think like we do. Sheesh, the houses are huge but have no sense of "home", they all think they're more important than anyone else on the planet and have a right to anything the taxpayers (not them) can ill afford to pay for for them. I kinda hope the land starts falling away under some of those homes so they can see what average people feel when a sinkhole opens up under a home.

BTW, I've been watching all this development since the 70s and where there once were orange groves weighing 1/10th the weight, there are now mcmansions and mansions and concrete and shizit everywhere. Looks like mother nature is gonna do what she wants to do.

[lpbk2713]

19. Isn't that something how Mother Nature always has the last word?

And it should be no other way.

[Joanne98]

23. Are you saying that the weight of development is causing the

sinkholes. How interesting.

[SoCalDem]

20. Looks like another golf course in the making:)

They BETTER not "borrow" OP water to refill their little pond..:)

[Joanne98]

24. It would be cool if the sinkholes swallowed golfers. LOL

[Joanne98]

21. Off to the Greatest. Can someone please post the link to the

first thread. I want to see that diagram of the aquifers again.

[madfloridian]

25. Here's the first one.

I think the link to the aquifers picture is in the comments, pick "discuss".

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/150

[Joanne98]

26. Thankyou madfloridian

[The Backlash Cometh]

28. Anytime you move water around, it affects something.

There will be sinkholes created in other places because they remove too much water in an unnatural way.

[immoderate]

29. I would think that the sinkholes are an indicator...

of the depletion of ground water in the area. Pumping out more of it might not be a cure.

--IMM

[madfloridian]

30. Agreed. The phosphate mining upset our whole environment here.

Much of the south of this city, where that lake is, are where the mines were in the past. Heck, they have left gypsum stacks for the county and state to decontaminate.

[immoderate]

31. I drive to work on the Turnpike Extension.

And I see an endless train of dumptrucks, and huge excavations on both sides of the road, and hideous green colored lagoons. Is that what this is about? Thanks for your insights, and I don't blame you for being mad.

--IMM

[madfloridian]

32. Some pictures of the Piney Point phosphogypsum stack...

Just to give you an idea. This is part of what they have been hauling out into the Gulf of Mexico, especially when it was about to overflow during the hurricanes. They used barges and dumped it offshore with Jeb's blessing.

http://www.dep.state.fl.us/secretary/news/2003/pp/pp_photos.htm

There are more places like this in our county. The companies are leaving all kind of toxic stuff behind, and some of the company owners live richly with no responsibility for it. Welcome to Jeb's world.

[kittenpants]

33. that does NOT look healthy

I was going to say that hopefully since there is more knowledge about the interconnected nature of ecosystems, etc these days, the 70's pumping program wouldn't be allowed anymore... however, after looking at these pictures...:scared:

[madfloridian]

34. The goal under Jeb is to give Florida to developers.

It started earlier, but he has hastened the procedure of handing it over. The state makes a big deal of buying land, like the Green Pond area, saying it will be for conservation to protect it from developers. But people are nervous just how long that will last before it becomes developed after all.

The bottom line is the taxes. Whatever brings the most tax base is welcomed. Funny how that citrus industry has almost disappeared here, with only a vague speculation now and then. One citrus grove owner, a big owner, said on TV that development brought more taxes to the state. He shrugged. They were in the process of destroying his grove because of citrus canker that was not even showing yet....just because it might.

And people let it happen.

[dipsydoodle]

45. At the risk of sounding naive

can't local pressure be applied so that when the State buys land for conservation a covenant is put on that land to protect it for at least 100 years ?

[madfloridian]

48. Our city and county commissioners are all developer friendly...

many of them are developers themselves. They are allowing the development of new condos and highrises in Central Florida even though we stay on water restriction.

They don't care what we think. You know how Bush and his cronies are? They don't care about the people of this country. Well, our leaders here don't care about our views. They just do not listen.

[immoderate]

36. Areas in South Florida look like that.

West of Miami, on the edge of the Everglades. The Turnpike down here is as much a road for hauling minerals as a commuter byway.

--IMM

[alarimer]

35. If they use public resources to do this

they should be required to allow public access. That is the only way this would be acceptable to be. Turn it into a public lake and I would not have as big a problem but to keep it a private lake and use public resources in the form of groundwater (which in my opinion belongs to everyone) is unacceptable. This sounds like typical Republican behavior, i.e. All those "self-made" millionaires who wouldn't be except for government contracts, student loans, etc.

[immoderate]

37. The problem with that.

If you pull up ground water, something has to take its place. Whatever that is will contaminate the groundwater. The lake would not drain, and sink holes would not appear, if the groundwater were not already depleted.

--IMM

[madfloridian]

38. Exactly. Doing the same thing over and over..

well you know what they say about that.

I think they will have a fight on their hands if they try it this time. Most of us never knew it was happening last time, but now we do.

[alarimer]

39. You are right

Groundwater supplies just about everywhere are being depleted faster than they can be replenished, so it isn't a good use of these resources. They should just plant trees and make it a forest.

Or it should just be dependent on rainwater to fill the lake. My point was that public resources should not be used for a private use UNLESS the public is allowed to participate.

They do this with beach renourishment. If a community (like Bellaire Beach, Florida) does not allow public access to their beaches, they are not allowed to use public funds for beach renourishment. Since it is very expensive, Belleaire Beach (the last time I saw it- a few years ago) has no real beach to speak of because of erosion. They refuse to allow the public to use "their" beach.

[immoderate]

42. It always bothered me that people could "close up the ocean."

I grew up near the beach in New York City, and although there were private clubs, they couldn't restrict access to the ocean. Neighboring Nassau County had some different rules (but as kids we always found a way in.:) )

--IMM

[alarimer]

47. beach access is a major issue these days

This is a bit OT but it seems each state has different rules. Texas has an amazingly progressive law that states that beaches (up to the vegetation line, or 100 yards from the high tide mark) are public property. No entity can restrict access to the beach, although many municipalities have tried. They have to provide plenty of parking if driving on the beach is restricted (it is in some areas for safety reasons but not on most of the North Padre island beach). This law was passed in 1959 and it constantly under attack by snooty homeowners who don't want the great unwashed on "their" beach. I fear it may go away given the current conservative, pro-development climate.

Florida has never had such a law, only Oregon comes close to it. Most states only allow public access to the "wet" portion of the beach (between high and low tide). Good luck getting there. Lakes are an entirely different matter. It mostly depends on whether they are public or private.

[madfloridian]

40. What is a "meandered" lake? And why does it matter?

I think all hell will break loose over this issue anyway, as the "owners and handlers" of our city live there in large part. I do not understand this op ed, as I don't know what a "meandered" lake is.

http://theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060625/COLUMNISTS03/606250423/1110/EDIT

Scott Lake May Be Public; Govt. Could Have Role

"The recent reports of a sinkhole in a portion of Scott Lake raises some interesting questions. Apparently, the county indicated that it would have no responsibility for dealing with the sinkhole, because it was asserted to be a private lake.

Whether it is a private lake a conclusion that could be correct, but may well not be. In fact, Scott Lake is what is known as a meandered lake, that is to say a lake that public surveyors were directed to survey, to include all lakes and deep ponds having an area of 25 acres or more as well as any and all navigable bayous. The meander line created by such a survey defines banks.

To a considerable extent, many of the Polk County lakes that are meandered have never had the actual lines established on the ground. The original surveyors' meander lines are contained within surveyor's notes, which are on file with the federal government, Those notes are obtainable. Local surveyors have, upon occasion, been required to obtain them to determine the precise lines between upland and lake waters in connection with disputes between upland owners and rights of the state in certain areas."

More at the link. I will bet they get their way.

[madfloridian]

41. And two more letters to the editors today.

http://theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060625/NEWS/606240470/1037/EDIT

"We continue building, even with scarcer potable water perhaps causing a greater problem. What do concrete, boards and infrastructure weigh for a house? Could it be that piling so much weight on our porous Florida limestone ridge causes the sinkholes, perhaps like a cracked windshield with cracks radiating outward? The map showing sinkholes indicates the alignment of some of them.

Global-warming experts predict that by the end of this century, much of Florida's coastal wetlands will be inundated with saltwater. It may be that we will sink the peninsular into the sea with so much uncontrolled building weight on our fragile subterranean limestone.

the REV. CLIFFORD L. HALFORD"

And:

"Twenty-five or 30 years ago, with taxpayers' money, the county went to Scott Lake and put in a boat ramp and parking area, and stocked the lake with fish.

Then the homeowners put up a fence, making a private lake.

These sinkholes are a terrible thing. Maybe it's payback time."

[dipsydoodle]

43. I continue to watch this with interest

Do please continue to keep us all updated.

[Crabby Appleton]

44. I used to live in Lakeland

Thanks for the updates MF, keep us informed. I lived in Lakeland in the early to mid 70's and worked construction in that area; not McMansions, just ordinary houses in the general area of Scott Lake, was basically out in the country in those days. Knew Bernie Little Jr, who was driving a delivery truck delivering kegs to bars in Lakeland for his dad's company then, not your typical spoiled rich kid.

I don't live there anymore, but would be very opposed to taxpayers footing the bill for a private lake.

[TheCentepedeShoes]

46. Swiftmud

Hee hee. Former Tampon...er Tampan, here. There's a lake in Tally that does that disappearing act. Can't recall the name. Not Lake Talquin but one in the NW part of town.

[dipsydoodle]

49. Found another link for you

http://news.tbo.com/news/metro/MGBV1L5LQOE.html

[marions ghost]

50. Now that is some bad Feng Shui (!?!)

Beached.