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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 05:33 PM
Original message
Mark Crispin Miller's open letter to Salon...
...which Salon would not publish.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-crispin-miller/some-might-call-it-treaso_b_23187.html

Dear Joan,

I'd like to thank Salon for touching off this spirited debate on Farhad Manjoo's argument with Robert Kennedy, Jr., and also want to thank you in particular for your own personal defense of Manjoo's writings on election fraud. I am especially impressed by your desire "to place this debate in its proper political context." Such careful explanation is exactly what we need; and so I'd like to help shed just a bit more light upon that context, by clarifying the record as you have described it.

In defense of Manjoo's writings since Election Day 2004, you claim (just as he has often claimed) that Salon cares tremendously about the problem of election fraud, and always has: "Salon has aggressively covered Republican efforts to suppress Democratic voter participation going back to December 2000," and has "followed the story doggedly ever since." In 2002, you claim, "Manjoo expanded Salon's coverage of our flawed election system with a special focus on the problems with electronic voting." Since then, you write, "e has approached his stories on the massive problems with voting in this country in the same way, with an open mind." In his zealous drive to learn the truth, you say, "he did not find evidence" of any widespread fraud in Georgia in 2002 (where Democrat Max Cleland lost his Senate seat, surprisingly, to Saxby Chambliss, and Democrat Roy Barnes was, also surprisingly, ousted as governor by Sonny Perdue). And, two years later, you remind us, Manjoo found nothing to confirm the view that fraud decided Bush's re-election in Ohio.

And so Salon has, for the last six years, been searching earnestly for "evidence" of fraud, and finding nothing but "unproven charges." If I may say so, this version of your history is not credible. First of all, it begs the question -- for there is vast evidence of fraud, as the letters you've received make wholly clear. Certainly you have the right to keep insisting that there is no evidence, and Manjoo certainly has every right to quibble with whichever single claim he may perceive as bogus or exaggerated. Neither move per se, however, can negate the copious, precise and ever-growing evidence of massive fraud in 2004, any more than the tobacco companies could negate the evidence that cigarettes are lethal, or the US religious right suppress the evidence of natural selection, or of global warming. As it's the evidence that matters above all, Salon's readers ought to be encouraged to study it themselves, and not accept mere claims about it, whether yours or mine.

So let me move beyond that fundamental argument, and make a more specific criticism of your recent statement in defense of Salon's treatment of election fraud. That statement obscures the fact that Manjoo's attitude toward his subject -- and, therefore, Salon's position -- has been strangely inconsistent. On the one hand, you are surely right to say that he has done some excellent reporting on the looming danger of election fraud -- before Nov. 2 of that fateful year. Back then he did a fine job covering several sinister developments, including the shenanigans of Nathan Sproul, a theocratic activist whose firm, Sproul & Associates, conducted bogus voter-registration drives in at least six states, covertly registering people as Republicans without their knowledge, and often trashing forms filled out by Democrats. (As I point out in Fooled Again, my book on the 2004 election, SEC records suggest that Sproul may also have abetted the subversion of the recount in Ohio.) In fact, I thought so highly of Manjoo's reporting pre-Election Day that I was often guided by it in my own research for Fooled Again, and therefore even thanked him warmly in the book's acknowledgments (p. 349). Considering such trenchant work throughout the presidential race, it seemed, to say the least, quite odd that Manjoo suddenly and absolutely shifted ground as soon as Bush's unexpected victory was official. Where he had indeed been dogged and impartial in exposing some real threats to the integrity of the election, ex post facto he seemed far less interested in dealing with the evidence of GOP malfeasance than in jeering every effort to discuss it. Instead of careful scrutiny of that evidence, he resorted mainly to sarcastic hooting and ad hominem assault -- the same tactics that the Bush Republicans themselves have always used to cast all argument about their unexpected win as sheer insanity...

Continued...
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Grateful for Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. K&R
An excellent rebuttal to Salon. This needs to be on greatest page.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. This "book chapter" letter is a remarkable statement. Thanps reprenehsor!
K&R

Isn't this what we'd expect from Salon. The refusal to publish an authors letter in resopnse to their
critique, particularly when some highly informed observers say Salon owes RFJ Jr. an appology, is relvealing.

Salon should be ashamed but I doubt that's an option. They're too busy writing back angry readers
and processing cancellations.

Amazing.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Salon is not one of my stomping grounds, but I have read it is DLC backed,
is this true?
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Benhurst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. If so, that would explain a lot. Recommended. NT
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. If so, they might be a bit smarter about it. Probably just home grown
inhalers of the WH delusion generator;)
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
29. Not really, AFAIK
Edited on Sun Jun-18-06 02:37 PM by Julius Civitatus
I was a subscriber to Salon form the early days. It was one of my stomping grounds before DU, and it was always to the left of the DLC. Sometimes they play it too safe, though. In other occasions, some of their writers and reporters have done a 180 and turn around to the dark side, most notably Manjoo and Jack Tapper.

Tapper quickly became the biggest Rove apologist as soon as he left Salon for ABC News. In recent days, Tapper has been tap dancing (no pun intended) to defend Rove and Bush after the Plame scandal.

Quite a shame.







------------------------------
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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
3. thank goodness for a voice of reason.
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. Tellin' it like it is. (nt)
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
6. Seminal piece. far beyond Salon - it chronicles the Democratic treason
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 07:22 PM by robbedvoter
from Kerry/Edwards down - the party machine decided to ignore the problem. Mother Jones?
One might want to think how far in our midst are the GOP claws - some didn't cover it out of ignorance, but most obeyed directives. We were betrayed on every level by leaders who were meally mouthing about the need to 'reinvent ourselves" and the importance of family values. Thanks MCM!
Let's face it, before you get too angry at Salon, remember: they were just a little piece in the GOP concession machine that pacified us. Air America: the 2 Marcs mocking us, Al Franken - and indeed most of the blogosphere was MIA.
SHAME!
DU was at the forefront of the movement for truth - and another tip of the hat for Truth is All is in order.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. Whoa. So refreshing to read this level of intelligence, reason, and
courage here in the New Dark Ages of 21st century Theocratic Republic of the United States.
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otokogi Donating Member (368 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
9. "your (SALON) history is not credible" - that is true of most in the M$M
even the ones on the left, unfortunately.

i think this topic is verboten even on KOS.

:crazy:
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. That doesn't suprise me.
But it sickens me.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 07:33 PM
Response to Original message
10. The beauty of all of this is, the truth will out! And where is it going
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 07:36 PM by KCabotDullesMarxIII
to leave Manjoo's professional career?

What comes round....... It's called "accountability".

As for Salon, they may fold. Imo, they won't care; they had a job to do, and did their best.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. "...and did their best." Which, as we know, wasn't much...')
At times like this, you are the master of the wicked understatement; at others, the fearsome smack
down.

Excellent point. They won't care because they don't have to, it would seem.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #11
26. Thanks, Auto. I try to have fun with their transparent capers.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
13. At least the letter got
posted some place..thanks, Huffpo!

Thats strange about manjoo investigating diligently before the election and then afterwards doing a 180 degree.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Not so strange - lots of people - "on our side" did the same.
Edited on Sat Jun-17-06 10:19 PM by robbedvoter
Manjoo is just one of the crowd. We've been had - from behind as well. The title of the piece is not about Manjoo. I never voted for Manjoo or trusted him to represent me. Read the whole piece.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
25. Rightly or wrongly, I place a more sinister construction on it. I feel
sure I've seen another prime example of it. A kind of sucker punch; being set up and them having the boom lowered on you.

The far right seem to be past masters at it; all part of their armoury of mendacity and deception. Didn't someone say Lindsay Graham tried to come across as a vocal critic of some of Bushco's conduct, but when it came to the crunch in important matters, he'd suddenly turn out to be a staunch neocon?

Anyway, I've remembered. It was CNN, and in fact it is a feature of the MSM as a whole. They know they have to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds, mid-term, then with the elections approaching, the political and financial psychos are given the office - an invisible agency "lets slip the dogs of war." I think Manjoo's adolescent-type of tirade is a slightly different manifestation of the same thing. I'm talking about in normal circumstances, but at this juncture it seems particularly shameful.
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faithnotgreed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
16. making sure this stays on the front page
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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 11:19 PM
Response to Original message
17. This needs to be repeated over and over
at the top of our voices until the People start to hear it.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
18. K&R.(nt)
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
19. follow the money . . . (always good advice) . . .
though salon.com casts itself as something of a progressive website, two of their funding "angels" are corporate giants of the highest order . . .

Salon.com nabs funding
http://news.com.com/2110-1030-994619.html

Salon Media Group, publisher of the Web site Salon.com, announced Friday that it received an $800,000 investment round from its existing investors. Shareholders Bill Hambrecht and John Warnock, who is also a board member, led this latest round. The media company, which has raised a total of $2.1 million since July, said the funding should help it achieve its plans to break even. The media company, which has more than 60,000 premium subscribers, had its stock delisted in November. It now trades over-the-counter under the ticker SALNC.

John Warnock is a founder and current Board Chair of Adobe Systems, famous for their Adobe Acrobat software and now owners of Macromedia as well . . . they do a lot of business with the government . . .

John Warnock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Warnock

Adobe's customers include a whole slew of U.S. government agencies -- collectively known as BushCo . . .

These are just a few of the government agencies that use Adobe products:

Federal
U.S. Department of Agriculture
U.S. Bankruptcy Court
U.S. Department of Commerce
U.S. Department of Defense
U.S. Department of Education
U.S. Department of Energy
U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA)
Federal Aviation Administration
U.S. Federal Courts
U.S. Geological Survey
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
U.S. Department of the Interior
Internal Revenue Service
U.S. Department of Justice
U.S. Department of Labor
National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Office of the President of the United States
U.S. Postal Service
U.S. Social Security Administration
U.S. State Department
U.S. Department of Transportation
U.S. Department of the Treasury

source: http://www.adobe.com/government/customers.html

Bill Hambrecht is a biggie in the world of financial wheeling and dealing, particularly IPOs . . .

Bill Hambrecht
Founder and co-CEO, WR Hambrecht + Co.


For decades, Wall Street's ritual for bringing stocks to market was suspiciously cozy. Investment bankers priced an initial public offering at a big discount to its true value, then invited their cronies and biggest customers to buy in. These lucky few reaped surefire profits. The IPO client? It received less cash than it had a right to expect--and paid a 7% fee for the privilege.

This outmoded system will collapse soon, mostly because of Bill Hambrecht. He's the chief priest of the "open IPO," which lets anyone bid for shares in auctions over the Internet. "If friends and family want in, they have to bid," he says. And the banker's commission is cut by half or more.

It's not the first time Hambrecht has shaken up the finance world. In 1968, when he cofounded Hambrecht & Quist in San Francisco, the big-money game was ruled by New York. Hambrecht's upstart got the inside edge on the PC and biotech revolutions and handled the IPOs of Apple and Genentech.

Hambrecht sold H&Q to JP Morgan Chase, then founded WR Hambrecht + Co. in 1998. His open IPO idea was embraced in 2004 by Google, and last year by Morningstar, the mutual-fund-ratings company (whose CEO, Joe Mansueto, owns Fast Company). As other entrepreneurs join in, more IPO funding will go straight to the folks who deserve it. And "friends and family" will be a little poorer.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/103/open_34-hambrecht.html

does the fact that salon's two largest funders are corporate moguls affect how the website covers things like election fraud? . . . I have no idea . . . might be worth further investigation, though, if anyone has the time and the inclination . . .



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Notoverit Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Great! Now do the same for everyone else mentioned in the piece that
Edited on Sun Jun-18-06 07:30 AM by Notoverit
stuck their fingers in their ears

- candidates, party, left blogs, parts of AAR
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 08:33 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. If you control one side of the debate, you gain significant power...
If you control both sides of the debate, you gain absolute power.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-19-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #19
37. Angels descent from a blue sky, it appears;) Very useful information.
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Voltaire99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 05:40 AM
Response to Original message
20. Miller: brilliant. Salon: offal.
This is a piece all Democrats should read, as Miller is on not only to Salon but to the project of what he correctly calls the "cowed, calculating" Democratic party.

The mystery of why so much evidence for electoral fraud is ignored or denigrated is, in Miller's subtle weavings, demystified.

We should note the shadow of 9/11 looming over this cowardice and evasion. Huge cultural tremors led the party and most media to seek accomodation with Bushism, and we saw it happen time and again through security legislation, war promotion, maddening silence, and tacit acceptance of fraud. Hear the echoes of Ari Fleischer's infamous "all Americans need to watch what they say" in the craven Manjoo's injunction against reporting about fraud: "even if it is in fact true, shut up about it." That is a whelp keen to please his masters.

Meanwhile we, the citizens, are the losers. Who will lead us? Who will speak for us? The night is long, and a light would be nice.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
23. I'm starting to think Salon is a gatekeeper

...In political parlance, a gatekeeper or left gatekeeper is an activist or organization that acts within the larger milieu of a political movement, in order to manage, constrain and co-opt the movement, often on behalf of the Establishment opponents of that movement...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Herschelkrustofsky/gatekeeper

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nuxvomica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
24. The leadership needs to show some courage on this issue
What are these people afraid of? Are they worried that speaking out and holding the Republican's feet to the fire will further marginalize their own influence on policy, which they may see as the only brake on our precipitous descent into Karl Rove's totalitarian wet dream? Such victories as they envision are small, impermanent and probably not worth winning. If we are going to plummet, it will happen regardless of how good as losers Democrats are portrayed to be. There is no better time than now to stand up to the Republicans with the disastrous effects of their agenda painfully evident to everyone. Unfortunately the leadership may see Republican policy failures as their foot in the door to power, not realizing that that door is going to be bolted shut unless they start banging on it.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
27. Obviously, Manjoo and Salon are looking for "smoking gun" proof
Edited on Sun Jun-18-06 01:27 PM by johnaries
of election fraud. Obviously, they haven't read the Conyers report. I consider signed affadavits of multiple eyewitness accounts plenty of smoking gun proof.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. No, johnaries, "looking for 'smoking gun' proof'" is the one thing
they are not doing, nor wish to. "Aggressive closure of the eye-lids" is my own cod medical description of their condition..
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 02:32 PM
Response to Original message
28. Question: why did Manjoo do a radical and sudden 180 after the elections?
Edited on Sun Jun-18-06 02:32 PM by Julius Civitatus
I'm not accusing anybody of anything... but to me, it is very strange that Manjoo, who was pursuing the election fraud story with great persistence, then suddenly changed his position 100%. I remember when it happened (I was a Salon subscriber), and couldn't understand why would that guy turn around his own research that way.

What happened?
Why would a journalist do anything like this?
Hypothetically, could any bribes be involved in this matter? Did Manjoo's purchasing power suddenly spike after the 2004 elections? Has he been muzzled with cash?

Just wondering...

:shrug:





------------------------------
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. Or threatened with bodily harm? n/t
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
31. Best thing I've read all month.
This paragraph kicks ass:

-- and there's the rub, because in this great clash the "other side" detests American democracy itself. The movement now in power is not conservative but radical, intent on an apocalyptic program that is fundamentally opposed to the ideals of the Enlightenment, on which, lest we forget, this revolutionary secular republic was first founded. The movement frankly disbelieves in reason, and in all the other worldly goods that every rational American still takes for granted: pluralism, checks and balances, "the general welfare," freedom, progress, the pursuit of happiness. For this movement, condom use is worse than death by AIDS, however many millions the disease may kill; the ruination of the planet should be hastened, not prevented, as it means that He will be returning soon; the "war on terror" is a matter not of geopolitics but metaphysics, as our national enemy is "a guy named Satan"; homosexuals should not be citizens, the US having been conceived as a "Christian republic"; and -- most relevant to this debate -- the movement's adversaries, which means all the rest of us, are not human beings with divergent interests but literal "agents of Hell," demonic entities against which any tactic, however criminal or sinful, is permissible, because they are likely to use any tactic, regardless of its sinfulness or criminality, to force their evil program on the Righteous Ones.


:applause: :applause: :applause:
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Mrspeeker Donating Member (671 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
32. Democracy is Dead in America
Your vote is counted alright..twice for whoever Diebold (the corporations) wants elected
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reprehensor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. It can be resurrected.
We just don't need "Gatekeepers" telling us what not to discuss.

On Election Fraud, this has been a terrible problem, thankfully, at DU there has always been at least some willingness to discuss it. Now, more than ever.

Everyone should read:

"What Went Wrong in Ohio"
http://www.truthout.org/docs_05/010605Y.shtml

...and prepare.

Because I can guarantee, the enemy read it. Thoroughly.
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orleans Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
35. i canceled my subscription to the Nation because they refused
to admit the 2004 election was STOLEN!

i remember, vaguely, their mag about why dems didn't win--we were too this, too that, not enough people voted, blablabla

everything EXCEPT THE TRUTH!

(so i thought: fuck em!)

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catD Donating Member (24 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-19-06 01:41 AM
Response to Original message
36. Nice piece.
Thanks for providing the defense against Manjoo. I was wondering what to make of it.
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