Something divisive is going on at DU today. If intended, it is a near

[peacetalksforall]

success.

On May 13 or 14 or whenever it is, I didn't participate in the five-part very long thread on Truthout-Leoplold article. Perhaps I missed out on why we should all now be in a 'group-think' in condemning Leopold, including Pitt and Ash.

Where did this 'group-think' movement come from that we have to condemn Truthout?
and
Where did this glorification of the powers of Rove come from.

We don't even know anything yet - because all we have is that that Fitzgerald said - not at this time.

We do know that the corporate propaganda networks are flying with the Rove story and lumping it with the George's trip to Iraq to show that things are great for the WH - an obvious attempt to think they are going to reach 37, at least.

Well, aren't we just helping them our enormously here and within DU?

The WH has succeeded in dividing the military.

We managed to divide ourselves here on DU to the point where we're being told that Rove and Luskin were the false leakers to Leopold.

Well, divisiveness has succeeded here on DU. I am one who will not jump to attack Truthout - so I'm on the support Truthout side of the line - until someone proves that sources fooled Leopold, Pitt, Ash, and Wilson or that they admit that they failed to detect a lie.

I must now get back to analyzing what it was that became really ugly here today and why I feel very, very uncomfortable.

[LaurenG]

1. Well said

:thumbsup:

[Spazito]

2. Well said!

:thumbsup:

[OzarkDem]

3. Has Fitzgerald issued a statement yet?

I don't believe he has, the only word we have is from Rove's attorney and forgive me if I don't believe him.

Something strand indeed is going on here today, particularly with the vehement and rapid attacks on Truthout. I hope the mods are taking names, though it seems many of them have already jumped on the bandwagon.

Makes me wonder about DU.

[htuttle]

7. No, he hasn't

In fact, it seems to be his general practice not to make ANY public statements about ongoing cases. The only information anyone (other than the grand jury and the lawyers) ever gets from his office is postings of official court documents on his website.

[hootinholler]

9. I don't think so...

I thought that Fitz's media guy said no comment earlier today.

We have nothing from Fitz. all we have is a statement from Luskin, who hasn't been all that forthcoming with facts, nor has he produced the letter allegedly from Fitz.

It is still possible that Herr Roverer was indicted and either turned or the shrub found a way to quash it.

-Hoot

[nolies32fouettes]

37. exactly! That's why I posted this article this morning.

http://www.progressiveu.org/100931-rove-roller-coaster-derailed

[sinkingfeeling]

4. I'm not condemning TO or anyone else. The way things are in this

country today, nothing shocks me much. I think the most likely scenario, considering what has been released so far, is that Rove is providing some type of info to the investigation and as long as he talks, he won't be charged. I think Fritz left the door open and if Rove clams up, he's history.

[KittyWampus]

41. I like the way you summed up the most likely scenario. Concise

and easy to grasp.

Thanks,

[AuntiBush]

78. Sounds Logical.

Just not getting hopes up any longer till I see it as fact, still I remain fully supportive of Truthout.

I just don't know about this Fitz any longer.

Will wait and see. What else can one do...

[Catherine Vincent]

5. You are right.

There is more glee here that Rove won't be indicted (supposedly) than disappointment.

[Jigarotta]

14. that's just not so. please don't go there. nt

[Catherine Vincent]

19. Yes there is!

[dogday]

107. So true....

:shrug:

[dogday]

6. Well Said

:kick:

[Norquist Nemesis]

8. To be specific, all we have is what Luskin said Fitzgerald said

Beyond that...spin spin spin.

Thank you! I agree with you.

And until the letter is up on Fitzgerald's site, or until he holds a press conference, my rinse and repeat is: Karl Rove was deeply involved in the outing of CIA Agent Valerie Plame.

[OzarkDem]

10. We haven't heard anything from Fitzgerald

only from Rove's lawyer.

[Norquist Nemesis]

11. Yup! n/t

[myrna minx]

13. Exactly.

I'm not taking Luskin's word for anything.

[smoogatz]

12. Until truthout's claim that Rove was indicted is verified on the record

by Fitz or someone in his office, they're going to look like idiots. Simple as that. It's possible Rove was indicted under seal and that the indictment was tossed in exchange for his cooperation--one of the conditions being that the indictment would never be made public (since that would force Rove's resignation, among other things). But that's just speculation on my part.

[IndyOp]

15. IGNORE !! My choice, maybe a weak one, for dealing with

the tone of discussion about Rove. At least if I hide the threads I am not tempted to participate and therefore do not throw any more wood on the fire.

:(

[zippy890]

21. yes! 'HIDE THREAD' is very good on these days

and one is not tempted to join the fray for
really unproductive reasons

[carolinalady]

16. I did not participate in those threads either, however I did follow

them and the single thing that I am disappointed in is the fact that Mr. Leopold boldly stated that he would out his sources if they proved to be untrue. That is where I find a problem with his credibility. Mistakes can be forgiven. A reporter is only as good as his source, but dishonesty turns my stomach. That is why is can not stand the current administration. If he comes clean as he promised, I will continue to believe they have credibility.

[earth mom]

17. The reTHUGS aka FREEPERS have invaded DU.

It's been TOTALLY OBVIOUS to me since this whole thing started.

They ALWAYS attack anything that can't be proven to their satisfaction-except they are NEVER satisfied if it doesn't come straight from the greedy evil lying corporate media whores-which we all should know by now report nothing more than Bush Co propaganda.

Rove was more than likely indicted but he managed to weasel out of it just like the rest of the criminals. Makes ya wonder how in the hell they do it time and time again... IMO, there is NO doubt the entire system is totally corrupt and ole Fitz ain't so clean himself. Yeah, I know that saying that is gonna get me flamed by all those who think Fitz is a saint-hell I thought the same for awhile there, but not any longer.

I don't give a damn what anyone thinks really, because I am so god damn sick of this shit and how these evil bastards are destroying this country and getting away with it!!! :grr:

[Maven]

24. Please, let's not and say we did.

Critical of Truthout != Freeper. Thank you.

[Catherine Vincent]

33. But you have to admit that some of them have hitched a ride

on that wagon. And they're not letting go.

[Maven]

39. To be honest, I think that any smart freeper

would PUSH a discredited story, rather than rebut it, in order to make us look foolish. That would be the true Rovian tactic. I want Karl Rove indicted, thrown in prison, and publicly ostracized to no end. But we're not doing ourselves any service by ignoring facts. This story, like the other 3 Leopold wrote (remember when Rove supposedly promised to resign immediately upon indictment?) simply wasn't true.

I think it's enough to say so and move on.

That said, I have also seen "you're with us or you're against us" type logic coming from t/o loyalists as well--equally as distasteful. It was only this attidude I was responding to with my post.

[Catherine Vincent]

43. "smart freeper"

Where?

[Maven]

46. Touche.

:P

[Mr_Spock]

50. hehe

It's true - we should not underestimate our enemy.

[AuntiBush]

79. Good One!

You go, catgirl!

[peacetalksforall]

72. I've never considered myself a TO loyalist - I just resent undeserved

attacks on them when we still don't know the story behind any of it. I'm only about stating my opinion which is - I believe the attacks are unjustified.

I believe I'm practicing tolerance and patience and providing wiggle room for the story to come out - on its timetable not mine.

[mmonk]

105. What is a smart freeper?

Is that similar to an ignorant genius?

[Maven]

112. As much as it pains me, I'd say that Rove himself is intelligent

He just uses the dark side of the force, so to speak.

Certainly, he's had a LOT of help from a compliant media, but as a political manipulator I think we can all agree, he's been effective.

On the other hand, I think that if the recent rehashing of gay marriage/flag burning/etc. has shown us anything, it's that Rove actually WASN'T the all-powerful, brainwave-controlling Wizard of Oz everyone thought he was--i.e., he's one note, and it's a played-out note at that. After all, what rightwinger HASN'T exploited ignorance and hatred to gain power? It's not like Rove invented anything new. He just took the lies to a more brazen and malicious level.

[nashville_brook]

34. folks don't have to actually be FReeps to do their bidding

i'm sure most of the people passionately engaged in tearing down Leopold/Pitt/Ash think they are keeping the left coast of the blogosphere safe for the rest of us.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

55. I'm not as yet ready to believe that Fitz isn't clean;

but I might concede that he can be more easily duped than I thought at first. With this bunch, you cannot operate under the assumption that they are telling the truth. Ever.

[earth mom]

61. I didn't want to go down that road either...

I wanted to believe that there were some good guys left and that Fitz was one of them and fighting for us. But the thing of it is is that the lying and thieving BFEE has gotten away with everything.

Everything stinking last thing.

That's why I just can't come to any other conclusion right now. But you know what? I would love for Fitz to prove me wrong. Maybe he will someday. If he does I will eat my words and apologize.

[kma3346]

111. I'm starting to get a sinking feeling about him too

I have for the past couple of weeks.... Hope I'm wrong.

:scared: :cry: :scared:

[guruoo]

75. Yep, pretty obvious that there's some 'outside agitation'

at play here.

[OzarkDem]

85. True, very obvious

I'm surprised the moderators sat by and let it happen. Sometimes I feel like I've been duped.

[nashville_brook]

18. amen! cointelpro couldn't have been so efficient dividing us...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1415883&mesg_id=1415883

... or could they...? :yoiks:

CREATING AND EXPLOITING "SPLITS"

Exploiting Internal Splits

Recent issues of the underground press have carried articles relating to the split which has developed within the Liberation News Service (LNS). One such article has even described a night raid which was conducted by members of the New York faction on the < > faction which is now located in Massachusetts. It would seem that this is an excellent opportunity to take advantage of the split to further disrupt the underground press and to attack the New Left. Director to SAC, New York, Sept 9, 1968

Authority is granted to make the anonymous mailing as suggested in referenced letter. The letter submitted as an enclosure therewith may be used for this purpose. You must take all necessary steps to insure that the Bureau is not identified as the source of this letter. Director to SAC, New York, Oct. 21, 1968

[Moloch]

20. The vast majority of DUers agreed that the Truthout article..

was true and I think all of us WANTED it to be true.

Just because you WANT something to be true, doesn't make it so. Journalism is about reporting facts, not just what people wanted to hear. Sadly, many of those who disdain the mainstream media for reporting lies were among the first to defend Truthout and disgraced "journalist" Leopold.

Those of us who did not drink the Truthout kool-aid were called FReepers and "fuckshits of low mental weight."

[KittyWampus]

47. Journalism is about reporting information gleaned from sources

and Leopold had several sources and ran them by his editor.

At this point, it's obvious you andmany other DU'ers WANT to hear that Leopold's sources were wrong. Even though a likely scenario is that Rove only agreed to cooperate after faced certain SEALED indictment.

Since Fitzgerald has used such tactics in the past, that scenario is very likely. Hence Leopold and his sources would be correct.

But then, you've already made up your mind, despite Fitzgerald's past MO> squeezing underlings to get superiors.

[Moloch]

103. A good journalist will check the validity of their sources.....

and if the sources give false information, and ethical news organization will run a retraction. Truthout didn't and instead chose to insult those who questioned their story. We were asked to believe in ON FAITH. That's not what journalism is about.

Are you suggesting that Fitzgerald or somebody from his office is one of Leopold's sources? I find that very hard to believe.

[w4rma]

110. Why is that so hard for you to believe?

And why are you spending your time and resources attacking folks who are trying to fight Rove instead of fighting Rove?

[Moloch]

113. I don't know why you think I'm some sort of Rove fan....

I'm not. In fact, I've written here on DU and had articles published in newspapers criticizing Rove, particularly in regard to the Valerie Plame incident. I want to see him in jail just as much as you do.

That doesn't mean that I'm going to believe everything I read about him and I certainly don't think that I, or others, deserve to be insulted and referred to as freepers because we question a shady, disgraced "journalist" and his unsubstantiated, contradicting story.

[nonconformist]

22. I think that the condescending glee over this is disturbing, at best

At worst, it's suspicious and mean-spirited.

[bettyellen]

29. i agree. people took this way too personal....

and took it out on fellow DUers. now they are way happy they can stick it to people yet again (20+ threads was not enough) .
nothing makes some people happier than being able to say "i told you so". it's pathetic. it's embarrassing.

[Zodiak]

35. and it is the act of a bully

and a gloater...two species that, in my opinion, are more odious than the "conspiracy theorists" they decry. They divide and make people feel unwelcome...not conducive to an internet "community".

I find all of these attack threads to be reprehensible, and I have no dog in the Leopold story.

[Minnesota Libra]

23. There always has been a certain "group think" attitude at DU over.........

.....such issues as immigration, English only, and others. I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm simply saying it's a fact of life at DU.

Recently, however, there seems to be an ever growing tension, a lack of even rudimentary tact, and little or no consideration for the slightest difference of opinion.:argh:

[Mythsaje]

25. Boy, am I glad I'm not the bandwagon type...

I'll remain independent minded and see how everything shakes out. Nothing is certain. Ever.

My catchphrase about all of it?

"We'll see."

[dalaigh lllama]

48. My position exactly

I see no usefulness in crucifying Truthout. We may not know how this will all shake out for years -- wasn't it about five years for the whole Governor Ryan case in Illinois that Fitzgerald did? All we can do is what you say: "We'll see."

It would be a bit more useful for those who have this unbridled anger at Truthout to refocus that angry energy at Bush and his minions. It reminds me of someone kicking their dog because they're mad at their boss.

[Hun Joro]

26. Thank you for this.

Whatever the truth is, I can't get over the nastiness I've seen surrounding this issue.

[peacetalksforall]

27. I am correcting something that I wrote in the original message -

I wrote -

".. so I'm on the support Truthout side of the line - until someone proves that sources fooled Leopold, Pitt, Ash, and Wilson or that they admit that they failed to detect a lie."

I didn't intend to say that I'm not going to support them if they were wrong.

[blm]

28. I am amazed that anyone would SEIZE the opportunity to attack when we

should all be well aware by now that, either way it comes down, it's not exactly a FAULT of anything but getting played by master deceivers.

Truthout guys have thick skin, but why would any good lefty go overkill on what happened to them and to us?

Alot of people here claim to be against the death penalty, but, I see they want the plug pulled on a great service like Truthout.

[McCamy Taylor]

30. Good news is we never stay divided. Let's united over Voters Rights!

This is the issue that is driving Rove's latest campaign of media distraction. Only by keeping ourt votes from counting will he keep Congress GOP.

[Skidmore]

31. I've been watching today's board with puzzlement. I didn't really

get into the Leopold story because I figured that an indictment would be made news to all media outlets when it happened, not just to one person. I didn't understand the breathless excitement then and I don't understand the hyped up reaction now. I believe something else is going on and nobody knows the truth beyond the grand jury and the court.

[endarkenment]

32. If there should be a 9-11 dungeon

there should be a dungeon for these threads too. I share your dismay at the posters who are determined to push the attack on TO. Why? Why not just let it drop?

[AndyTiedye]

36. Some Have Given Up Hope, Some Are Still Grasping At Straws

Most of us on a rollercoaster ride between the two.

This isn't so much a division as a natural reaction to a very bad situation.

[fasttense]

38. Well said. n/t

[Cleita]

40. I'm on your side and taking sides might be divisive but

nontheless I'm with you and eventually the truth will come out.

[Mr_Spock]

42. Some cannot resist the "told you so" rubbing in of todays story

If find it infantile and repulsive - but if we complain or even refuse to jump on the hate-wagon, we are accused of tacitly supporting TO or trying to suppress their first amendment rights :eyes: Aren't these sorts of manipulations common among the Freeper crowd?

:(

[Seabiscuit]

44. Talk about divisive b.s. Gawd!

:puke:

[glitch]

45. Today is the kind of day to watch for some major underhanded legislation

(executive order) or privatization. Not just because of the NYT piece on Rove, but also the Bush play date in Iraq.
Perhaps they'll finalize handing over our port security to Carlyle.
I understand the EPA has dismantled our environmental protections, that's worth a distraction.
Is there some large public resource being given away today?
You'll save your sanity if avoid the obvious (and tired) flamebait threads and concentrate on spotting their moves that really affect the lives of ordinary people.
It's also quite possible (even likely) DU and other public forums are used as focus groups to test new marketing memes. Not necessarily in this case, but something to consider.

[The Doctor.]

49. Just posted the same thing.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1417138&mesg_id=1417138

Chill out people.

[peacetalksforall]

52. I highly recommend reading this thread by Dr_eldritch. I'll search for

your postings from here on out.

I too was a Republican once - about 43 years ago - (I converted after getting into the 'conspiracy' of a death and finding that I rejected and resented the administration and commission's report and the group-think that was imposed on us. It changed my life.)

[izzybeans]

51. The story for some folks turned into a story to discredit Truthout

whatever you think of such a site, the story remains locked inside Fitzgerald's diary. No one really knows do they?

[mandyky]

53. I missed it

because I was in jail from the 11th to the 26th, so I don't have a dog in this fight. Trying to stay out of it too :)

[havocmom]

67. Jail was probably the better place to be during those days

It was hell around here.

[nolies32fouettes]

54. kick

[applegrove]

56. Well said. Remember the blogsphere saw the TO story as not being

backed up.. and following the pattern of breaking news.. really early on. And we all put on the breaks including TO.

So, live and learn. We have to be doubly discerning.

Unfortunately you can know you are dealing with low down dirty dealing devils.. and still get duped.. still have your emotions overcome your intellect (in fact they count on it.. why they make things so emotional all the time with tribalism and hate).

So.. live and learn.

[robbedvoter]

57. Beautifully said. Not all the facts are in.

We have to hear from Fitz. We need to know who offered the story and why. No matter what the whole story will be it's not worth the venom spewed around.
And NOTHING justifies gloating and celebrating today.

[saracat]

58. Oh please. We were and continue to be duped.

Fitzgerald doesn't have to comment on this. Leopold made all of us look bad. And if we criticize RW journalism we can't let shoddy and deceitful journalism from the left stand! Leopold has a bad reputation and TO had had themselves smeared by it. Live and learn. Don't hire an admitted plagerist!Perhaps Blair needs a job??????

[itzamirakul]

59. If I posted anything during the time of the many threads re

Rove's coming indictment, I think I recall talking about how cynical I have become in expecting any of Bush's cronies to be punished for their crimes.

What I do recall is the divisiveness that was showing up in the threads as those who DID believe that Rove had been indicted and those who did NOT believe the Leopold story went after each other's jugular veins.

Another point of contention was among those who supported Will Pitt's defense of Leopold's story versus those who did not support Pitt's defense of Leopold and Truthout.

I must have spent an hour or two reading all of the posts to get a general idea of what most DUers were thinking about the above matters.

In the final result, I personally came to the understanding that we do have favorite posters here at DU and some of us will support them regardless...

So now I think the people who supported the Rove indictment story are being somewhat taunted by those who can now rightfully say, "WE TOLD YOU SO!"

I"m so glad that I didn't get all involved in those posting wars (as I sometimes do) on either side.
LOL

[SoCalDem]

60. I skipped those threads as well.. I have learned patience as I age.

I am willing to wait and see it play out..

"Sure things" often are anything but:)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. You are seeing a two pronged attack

Some thought the story was bunk and feel vindicated. Others just hate Will Pitt. He, of course, didn't really help his cause with his now famous thread calling people names for doubting the story.

[blossomstar]

63. Well said! Thank you.

[depakid]

64. Truthout was simply irresponsible

and their supporters who failed to listen to caution- or to the words of experienced attorneys who post here- (hopefully) learned a valuable lesson in critical thinking.

To the experienced eye- the story never rang true from the outset- no matter how much people wanted to believe it.

The time will come eventually- IMHO- when an apology is due from the folks at Truthout. I trust that they'll be big enough to come right out- with no if ands or buts- and just say it.

[lindisfarne]

65. All you say may be true, but does it invalidate everything else TO has

done? It felt like a personal vendetta. Reporters can and do make mistakes. Leopold is still claiming he obtained information that Rove was indicted - maybe his sources was misinformed, maybe his source was lying, maybe Leopold is guilty of being too trusting. But really, this all got completely blown out of proportion - I have no allegiance or dislike of Leopold but I was amazed by how heated this all became.

[depakid]

66. It's because it was HUGE thing to report

that's part of what made it so irresponsible. It got everyone's hopes and then their ire up- and needlessly so, IMO.

I too like Truthout and the stories I read there- but not so much that I believe them unquestioningly. Bottom line is that they stuck their necks way out- got recalcitrant about it- and then went down spectacularly.

[lindisfarne]

68. I don't believe ANYTHING I read unquestioningly. I still think the DU

reaction was completely ridiculous. Put that energy into something else. Yes, call for accountability but this went way beyond a call for accountability - it was a personal vendetta for many.

[twalling]

90. Well, some mistakes that were made

were Pitt calling the members of DU "cretins" for daring to question the truthfulness of the story, Leopold saying critics were "motivated by hatred" when they were just asking why the facts he reported did not come true, and Ash blaming everybody but the ones who produced a bogus story of creating a "firestorm."

Instead of coming out and saying "our bad" when it was obvious, 24 hours after the story didn't come true, DU got defensive. They dug in, and blew it way out of proportion themselves.

[shance]

70. And the rich white male "mainstream" media doesnt lie intentionally

every single day to you?

[depakid]

74. Truthout reported on a bogus story- and they had reason to know

or should have known it was bogus. That's a standard I'll hold anyone to.

Now, we get to see what kind of character they have. Are they any better in that regard- in this case- than the MSM? I hope so, but we shall see.

[tlsmith1963]

69. Just Got Home...

...so I am saying my first comments about the latest news. I am not happy with Truthout, to say the least. I don't like being led on. I will probably be very careful about believing something like that again. But I am not saying that everyone here has to agree with me. I am not here for a fight, just giving my opinion.

Tammy

[SheepyMcSheepster]

71. Agreed, some are just being nasty

I could careless about Truthout. I don't depend one news source, that's just not smart. As for the truth to the rove matter, we will see when Fitzgerald is done. Energy spent being nasty to each other because of their opinions on the matter is energy wasted. There are much useful things to get emotional and excited about. Some of these posts make me sick, I have never seen DU in such a continued state of viciousness. People need to chill out, it does no good.

[Yollam]

73. Wow, thanks for the decree!

"Well, divisiveness has succeeded here on DU. I am one who will not jump to attack Truthout - so I'm on the support Truthout side of the line - until someone proves that sources fooled Leopold, Pitt, Ash, and Wilson or that they admit that they failed to detect a lie."


I get it now - Criticizing Truthout = Divisive

Supporting Truthout = Not Divisive

:eyes:


I don't have an axe to grind against Pitt or Truthout, but I am not one of their cheerleaders either. I've always felt uncomfortable with the fact that Pitt, MoPaul, BenBurch and other DU celebs are considered to be above reproach, so much that the posting rules are sometimes bent in their favor. Nobody should be above reproach here, and if somebody posted a false story without properly verifying it first, they deserve to be called on it.

But the DUers that constantly wait breathlessly for news of some illusory "Fitzmas" need to take a hard look at themselves, too. If indictments come down, fantastic, but don't be so desperate to be the first to know about it that you pin all your hopes on some leftishlike website. Same goes for all those who gasped with astonishment when Ben Burch announced that there would be an attack or invasion of Iran on June 6 or whenever. Why on earth would you believe that, given the state of our forces, the present political climate, and the source being someone's "little bird"?

Why are so many people so eager to be led down the primrose path? There is not going to be a magical white knight to retrieve our democracy for us. At some point, WE are going to have to go out and do it for ourselves, in overwhelming numbers. Of that, I am certain.

And in the meantime, tales of nuke attacks on Tehran, etc. should be taken with a grain of salt. Just because Bush is a deranged killer doesn't mean he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants. He is under a great many powerful thumbs.

[mistertrickster]

76. I'm sticking with 'em too . . . but it'd be nice if they could throw us a

bone.

There's a good reason for his original story. We just don't know what it is yet. No time to go wobbly on our friends.

Leopold had something at TruthOut today about a weird "Sealed v Sealed" indictment.

It'll all be clear soon enough, but it's just not clear now.

Patience.

On edit--I agree with Depakid though--with a story this big that was certain to blaze through the blogosphere like a prairie fire, you have to have evidence that is iron-clad, if for no other reason than to CYA if the fire fizzled out . . .

[AuntiBush]

77. I Will Always Support Truthout (dot) Org!

And will repeat, I will always support truthout! I recall reading those threads. One would be foolish to not believe DU has some rovians 'round.

[benburch]

83. Many "people" here are pretending to be something they are not. nt

[Llewlladdwr]

89. Is that true for anyone who disagrees with you?

N/T

[benburch]

91. Nope!

Just the ones who pretend to be lefties, but who are fucking liars.

[Llewlladdwr]

94. How do you tell the difference?

N/T

[benburch]

95. It becomes obvious after a while.

Especially when RW sites start cheering them on.

[TreasonousBastard]

80. Today?

[lonestarnot]

81. Well if it makes you feel any better, I missed it too.

[benburch]

82. Yes, it is fully intentional.

There are agents provocateurs at work on DU.

[Laurab]

84. Thank you, thank you, thank you!

Well said.

I tried analyzing it when it first started - I gave up. I think there are several motivations at work, and I don't think any of them are real positive ones. I also noticed it was the same people over and over. That's when I finally found and used that nice "ignore" feature.

I don't mind disagreements, I mind ugly, vicious, vile posts attacking people who are trying to do good things, and I was seeing way too many of them, people working overtime to discredit Truthout, but more in the manner of personal attacks. It was ugly.

[Name removed]

86. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lars39]

87. *That's* the 64,000 dollar question.

It used to not be this way here.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

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[Rex]

92. Divisive levels holding steady at 85%!!!

Dive dive dive!!!!

[BlooInBloo]

93. Only because people INSIST on believing without evidence....

... fix that, and there's no problem.

Hell, just get people to even so much as CARE about evidence would be a big step forward.

[lindisfarne]

96. Who believes 100% a story based on "confidential informers"? I take

any such story with a grain of salt until more evidence builds.

I would have expected the same from DU, which is why I was so amazed (and still am) that this thing got blown up so out of proportion. I can't believe the number of threads dedicated to one wrong article: wrong for whatever reason, but who really takes seriously an article that doesn't name names, when there is no other evidence out there??

Anyone who does believe a single report based on "confidential informers" is a bit gullible, in my book, and not worth worrying about.

[peacetalksforall]

102. I agree, lindisfarne. Everyone once in awhile I let myself believe

something because it may be something slightly trite, or not so important, and I want to believe it.

Most of the time I am always checking and balancing the who, what, when, where, why. Because we had a more neutral, more responsible investigative media taken from us and because it was replaced by propagandists and smirking pundits, we have to work extremely hard to sift and piece together our truth - truth that fits our own person and truth that we build with others in order to figure out who else we can trust. Truth that is scattered while the replacement for journalism forms.

I am most interested in the legal because legal is thrown in our face every day. We see our rights slide away with claims by this administration that their interpretation is new, but right. We now see those who make the laws struggle if they are in the minority while those in the majority laugh, smirk, and play dirty to get rich, fulfill the agenda of PNAC/barons, while trying to hang on to a minority voting base. Most of their new law is containment for mere citizens and enrichment for corporations.

One thing we knew coming in to this is that prosecuting from the law can move slowly. Once again, we are learning more law - the net is now full of interpretations of what may have happened behind the doors with the Fitzgerald case and we learned more about the structure of law in which it could have happened. It appears that is may not all be over for Rove in contradiction to the propagandists. It looks like a lot of maneuvering and flipping went on. I learned that it is possible that the indictment could have been real and that the law steered things, but didn't end things.

Now, I'll take what I learned and learn more while I wait. The above is what I'll believe tentatively and as always, I'll practice patience - while I continue to learn and figure out what I have to adjust. This is a living, ongoing school that we're in because of the flipping and dis-reality we have been thrown into - with repercussions that can affect generations = tragically.

[OzarkDem]

98. Interesting

Why are you so committed to defending Rove?

[BurtWorm]

100. Why do you hate democracy?

:eyes:

Friendly advice: you need to learn how to tolerate disagreement.

[Pachamama]

97. I feel the same way in watching the weirdness on DU...

Don't like it one bit....thanks for your post...

[cynatnite]

99. It's not over...

In regards to Leopold, I've heard for quite some time that he's not completely credible. I've been told he's been wrong in the past. It's happened to the best of them.

But it also shows that putting too much stock into one person usually means for a huge letdown. I'm of the mind, especially these days, that seeing is believing. If someone says Rove is to be indicted, I'm more inclined to believe it when Fitz comes out front and center and says it...either that or seeing the court documents for myself.

Having said that, I'm going to defend Fitz. The man loves the law and is an avid professional when it comes to doing his job. He's proved it enough in my eyes. IMO, two things happened here. Either there was no case to be made in order to convict Rove for what we all know he did or Rove sang like a canary and bigger fish are yet to be fried.

Even if all we get for a reward is Scooter, I'm going to relish the day Dick Cheney is dragged into that courtroom, put under oath and forced to testify. I remember from my high school L/D debates...our coach said "Always know the answer to whatever question you ask of your opponent". Fitz will know the answers. :evilgrin:

[autorank]

101. Here's my RESPONSE to an ATTACK on DU. Re: RFK Jr. article

Salon Magazine has been writing trash about DU brainwashing everybody who speaks out against election fraud, stolen elections and 2004. Seriously...

Screw division. When attacked, fight back.

Kennedy’s Challenge: Salon, Mother Jones & the Tortured Dialogue On Election Fraud 2004

[dogday]

108. Great Post

Thanks for this information....

[peacetalksforall]

109. I only scanned - but your work is amazing. I hope it lives in history for

an analysis. I was a big fan of Salon in the 90's and I've stopped going there in spite of the Joe Conason articles and an occasional Keillor gem. I'll be interested in knowing what might have happened to me that I fell away.

While scanning, I kept hoping that what you were saying was about individual authors, not the magazine.

I admire people who devote themselves to big works such as yours.

[gogo69]

104. I always wondered who K&R'd those discussion threads n/t

[Gregorian]

106. United we stand.

That was my only post on the Truthout marathon thread.

It is ultimately our own responsibility to confirm what we hear. There were at least two very experienced people who were not fooled by Truthout's report.

And I'll say the same thing about WMDs in Iraq. I didn't believe it. I listened to Blix and Ritter. I even felt so strongly about it, I called my Senator. Even she voted for the resolution.


Now I'd like to say what I think. Let's take the worst case. Let's assume Leopold wrote that article on purpose. And Will Pitt went with it. Without spending time blabbing any further, let's just make the comparison between that and what we see in this administration. That's all. One can say that we are trying to do better than them. But even as a worst case, it seems we are doing better. After all, this is how the entire administration conducts it's business. And worse. I doubt that is what happened. But even if it was, I wouldn't condemn Truthout. I know I should. Because it sets a dangerous precedent. But that's how far I'm willing to let our side go.