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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:30 AM
Original message
Having worked as a columnist, I say Jason Leopold....
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 08:32 AM by Wetzelbill
as a journalist, has to be able to sift through the bullshit. So what if he was misled? It is his job to not be burned like that in the first place. Was he targeted? I doubt that, nobody outside of people like us even know who the guy is, more than likely, he just fell for some information that was dubious and other reporters did not. So he is the guy who has to accept his screw up. Does everybody screw up? Yes, of course they do, and the only bit of leeway you could give him is to say that, as a human, he royally screwed the pooch on this. But his excuses only go so far, because the guy should have known better to print information that sensationalistic without having it verified beyond a doubt. Sy Hersch gets all kinds of crazy tips. When he writes his articles, he says he only goes about halfway into the stuff that he is pretty sure is true. He could go out and make all sorts of accusations, which he does have some sources on. However, unless he can absolutely verify it, he does not run it. He doesn't speculate and that's what puts Sy up above all the other hacks out there. Leopold should have adhered to that same principle, because if he did, he wouldn't be in the situation he is in right now. He looks like a fool, and the people who believed the guy look like fools as well.


As for Truthout, Marc Ash and Will Pitt that is more complex. They have a guy who is supposed to be a journalist and has a big story. He tells them that he has sources that verify it, so they back him up. Based on what this guy was saying, they took him at his word. Did Marc Ash and Will Pitt screw up on this? Yes, they did. But, Marc Ash and Will Pitt have built up a damn good track record over the years. Three years ago, I interviewed Will Pitt for some stuff I was writing. I recorded our discussion, and every damn word that guy told me during that interview was true. I researched it all and he was spot on. So I'm not going to stand here and bad mouth Truthout, Marc Ash and Will Pitt because of Jason Leopold's mistake. Those guys are still credible in my book, and I'll still go visit their website and read what they have to say. About the only fault Will Pitt may have is his passion, and I'll take that over just about anything any day.

Moreover, Truthout has articles from writers like Ray McGovern, Greg Palast and Larry Johnson, which are inherently valuable. They are one of the best clearinghouses for information out there. And, this Jason Leopold situation doesn't change that one bit.
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progmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. Hey Bill
Nicely said. :hi:
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. thanks
:)
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
2. I doubt you were dealing with Rove
I'm not going to pass judgment too hard on Leopold. Anything can go wrong for anyone, especially at that level.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. no I wasn't and who knows if he was either
it could have been anybody. But the same principles apply, you don't print what you can't verify, if there is a doubt or the source seems dubious, then don't go with it. If it's good enough for Sy Hersch than it is good enough for any journalist. That being said, anybody can mess up, and he did, I don't approve of bashing the guy into the ground, but I also don't believe in making up all kinds of excuses for him either.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
3. You are overlooking the most salient fact
Leopold never researched what his alleged "sources" told him. He even admited (later) publishing something - a nonsense "twenty-four hours" rule - that he stated he didn't understand. Can you imagine a legitimate journalist putting something in a story that he knows he doesn't understand? It's ridiculous. You can't get away with that doing a paper in middle school, not without a footnote.

He didn't do the basic footwork required of a journalist - which is to triangulate the information given by each source. He's no journalist. And I don't read truthout, but I certainly would never give them any credibility now, not having seen how badly handled this matter was for the past month.

He made it up, he lied, and your attempt to defend him falls flat, alas, because he is not a journalist and did not employ standard and trustworthy journalistic practices. It's good to be loyal, but you must pick causes and people who are worthy of your support. This one is not.

The story was always bogus. And absurd.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. I'm not defending him
I am saying that making excuses up for him don't fly, because it is his job to check sources and not get burned. I don't get what your point is.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. You defended him,
but you might not realize that you did. You simply overlooked his malice in putting forth that story, and shifted the responsiblity to the people at truthout.

That's not putting the responsibility exactly where it should be - on Leopold. You went to the next level, for reasons I do not understand, and you let him off the hook.

Silence very often equals approval, and, in a matter like this, disapproval and condemnation should be loud, clear, and unequivocally placed right on the head of the perpetrator.

That is Jason Leopold. The rest is dross
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. I put the responsibiltiy on Leopold, not Truthout
That is why I say in the first paragraph that only he can accept and be responsible for his mistake. I say DO NOT blame Will Pit and Marc Ash, but DO blame Jason Leopold. That's pretty much my whole post in a nutshell.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Then your writing style evades me
I did not get that from what you wrote, but that's probably just a matter of style.

When you have to defend what you wrote, it needs to be rethought, I suspect.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I'm a published author
You are the only person I have ever had in my life not understand what I wrote. It's not that I have to defend what I wrote based on style or rethink my words, it's that you are overlooking what I wrote. You must have skimmed over it of something, I am not sure. But I specifically say: "his excuses only go so far, because the guy should have known better to print information that sensationalistic without having it verified beyond a doubt." I'm not sure how that isn't clear.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Yeah, so am I
I'm a HarperCollins author under contract and have been for years.

Take it for what it's worth. You read it your way, and I'll read it mine.

Perhaps you might examine the concept of subtext.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
25. hey I'm just saying
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 09:08 AM by Wetzelbill
everybody else read it the exact opposite way that you did, and you had my whole argument exactly backwards. If you are the only one who is reading it like that and the OP is saying he wrote the exact opposite of what you are saying, well, you might be the one reading it wrong. But other than that, we've always been friends, it's just a misunderstanding, no big deal. No sense getting condescending or anything you know, I assume neither one of us are exactly dumb by any means. :)
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #25
36. I'm assuming, with perfect clarity,
that I read differently what you wrote, and if you see it as "right or wrong" in terms of how your words were taken in, then I'd say you'd best examine subtext.

And, sorry, but we're not friends - I have no idea who you are. I'm only dealing with posts, not personalities, real or perceived.

As for condescending, well, that's the word people love to throw out when they're backed against a wall and have nothing else.

Subtext. You're not as clear as you think you are. You ducked past the perpetrator and made a scramble of a very simple situation while trying to defend the indefensible.

I've said my piece. That's the end of this one.

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #36
39. that was totally uncalled for
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 10:20 AM by Wetzelbill
I always thought we got along in the past.

I didn't say anybody was getting condescending, I said there was no sense letting anything go that far, as in terms of arguing.

Try to get along and I get jumped on.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. OLL wasn't the only one that took that post
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 12:33 PM by shadowknows69
as support for Leopold. Honestly I don't see how it could be taken any other way. I'm not cutting him any slack either. I've been hearing that excuse for shoddy reporting for too long. I would have been expelled from journalism school for what Leopold published. The race for the "scoop" is pointless if your "scoop" is going to be false.
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ray of light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Hey! Truce here! We're all on the same team! Go here...
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 02:27 PM by ray of light
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #17
41. You're just wrong on this one.
I often admire your posts, but let me suggest that you misread the OP. It was perfectly clear. I had no trouble understanding his point. He put the onus on Leopold and wrestled with the responsibility that Pitt and Ash bear. I don't know why you had trouble getting that, but it wasn't the fault of the OP. There was nothing whatsoever wrong with his post.
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. Your reading skills are different from mine
That's the only way I can imagine you can't understand how off this OP was.

But, that's what makes it all so interesting - to each his own.

I would suggest, by the way, that you seriously misconstrued the meaning and intent. As I've tried to point out, one must always consider subtext, something you've obviously overlooked.

I, however, do know why you'd have trouble getting that. It's obvious.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #50
59.  Sorry you responded to my respectful post with a nasty one
Edited on Wed Jun-14-06 06:23 AM by cali
and tempting as it is to respond in a like manner, I don't want to do that. But do tell , since it's obvious, what you mean by stating that, "I, however, do know why you'd have trouble getting that. It's obvious.". It's a snarky comment. I'd appreciate some clarification.

As far as subtext goes; nonsense. Sometimes a person says precisely what they mean, and in this case, the OP was clear. I don't agree with everything he wrote; I hold Pitt and Ash responsible for the content of TO.

It seems to me that rather than graciously stating that you read it too quickly initially, you're blustering and obfuscating in order not to back down. Rather childish.

I have no intention of blocking your posts. You provide, at times, knowledgeable analysis. Speaking of subtext, however, you might consider checking that supercilious attitude. It does nothing for your posts.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #59
60. she doesn't even understand what she is talking about
subtext doesn't apply here. Subtext is implicit and metaphorical meaning in literary writing. I do not write anything in metaphors nor do I imply anything. I clearly state that Leopold should not have written the story if he couldn't absolutely verify it. It's classic elitist talk where a person cannot defend getting something absolutely wrong, so they get snobby and try to sound overtly intellectual so nobody understands what the hell they are getting at. I know what I was arguing, pretty much everybody else does, especially if they actually take the time to look at it. I appreciate you trying to be a grown up and explaining the points I was making, you didn't deserve the nasty treatment for your effort.
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One_of_8 Donating Member (289 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #41
54. Some quotes from the OP
In the first paragraph, referring to Leopold: the guy should have known better to print information that sensationalistic without having it verified beyond a doubt.

Sounds like the OP feels Leopold didn't meet journalistic standards.

So I'm not going to stand here and bad mouth Truthout, Marc Ash and Will Pitt because of Jason Leopold's mistake. Those guys are still credible in my book, and I'll still go visit their website and read what they have to say. About the only fault Will Pitt may have is his passion, and I'll take that over just about anything any day.

I did not infer from this remark, nor any other in the OP's post, that he was shifting blame for the Leopold/Rove story onto Truthout, Will Pitt, or anyone other than Leopold, for not verifying his information "beyond a doubt."
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
18. Leopold wrote the story but Will Pitt championed the story here at DU.
It was Will who told us that if it wasn't true, he would reveal Leopold's sources. It was Will who insulted many people on DU who didn't buy into this fable. So to say he has no responsibility is a bit absurd to me.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #18
29. oh, I would say TO bears some responsibility
and since Will championed the story, well your point is fair enough, but I see a lot of people making excuses for Leopold around here, and he's the guy who was personally burned on this. If he wasn't able to verify the facts, than he should have never written the story. If Will insulted people, well, that is a personal thing, and I don't even want to touch that. But the bottom line is, whether Leopold was targeted or misled or not, it is his business as a reporter to be able to sift through all the bullshit and print only what he can verify as the truth. Since he did not do this he is the person who should be blamed for making that major a screwup.
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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. I agree with you entirely in regard to Leopold as to his
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 09:38 AM by OmmmSweetOmmm
responsibilities to journalism, but from the very beginning I didn't feel that his story was credible. I posted in fact during the fracas that it had the filthy fingerprints of Rove on it. I still don't know if Leopold was "burned" on this as you say, or if he was he being paid to just make crap up. This administration has been paying "journalists" all along to do that very thing, mislead the public.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. yeah, I never bought it at all either
in fact, I stopped reading his stuff a few years ago, some of his other articles over the years seemed a touch off to me. Not to say that he was wrong on everything or much at all, I just haven't read his stuff in a long time. The Rove story seemed pretty sensationalistic to me, so I kept my distance when it came out, waiting to see how it played out etc. Now if he got paid to make something up - which I think is pretty tough to believe but you never know with this administration - that is an entirely different beast altogether. He oughta be lynched in that case. :)
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. Truthout DOES bear responsibility
Ash and Pitt both said they know who Leopold's sources are, and have talked to these sources themselves. And, as editors, they decided to go with the story, and continue to stand by it.

They are all equally culpable.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #19
32. see that is a tough situation
I would definitely say they hurt themselves. Marc Ash and Will Pitt have pretty good track records, Leopold is a lot more iffy, and he is the guy who wrote the story and his editors backed him up. They bear responsibility, but, in the end, Leopold is the guy who wrote the story and he should have never done it in the first place. From an editorial standpoint, this hurts TO quite a bit, but the rest of their content is first-rate. I will definitely continue to read that. I typically do not read their editorial stuff or their reports anyway. I usually stick with the other stuff they bring in, like Greg Palast and so on.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
26. I think he was tipped off by sources he believed....and unfortunately
didn't realize that the sources might have fed him some true items in the past (perhaps to hook him) and then they sprung this on him and he took the bait and ran with it.

I'd like to know who those sources were. It does show that he's naive that he thought he would get the scoop of the decade in front of other reporters who have years of experience and a wide range of sources.

I don't know that he can be excused for this given that he's had some other troubles and should have known better...but don't feel like dancing on the demise of his believablity, either. Truthout does bear some responsiblity for not finding a credible way out of this early on by making a statement that would have allowed them to be more critical of their acceptance of Leopold's story. They jumped the gun on this when they should have known better that as small internet publication on the left they wouldn't be given an exclusive scoop about Karl Rove.

Truthout does have other articles of interest. Don't think anyone should stop reading it just because of Leopold...but wouldn't look to them for anymore "exclusives." :-(
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. yes well put
:)
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. I guess this means no "Fitzdependence Day"...
Oh, well...

I hope the Wilsons get the opportunity to take Rover to Civil Court.

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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. That's questionable
I doubt they'll get to do that. I really do. I think they'll have an uphill battle getting that into court, but it could be interesting. It'll also be five or six years down the line, if they go ahead and try to do it.

I wish Joe Wilson would go quiet now and let it become his own personal matter, because, frankly, there are far more important things going on with our country than his outrage over his wife's outing. He's gotten as far as he can go with it, the party's probably over as far as criminal investigation goes, and now he should start looking forward.

We all should.

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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. I agree...
The whole thing is only one mound in a Himalayasque Mountain Range of crimes both
petty and Constitution shattering.

(Not to belittle it's importance to the Wilsons)

But, there are crimes against the state out there which involve each and every American
which need attention.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. good advice lefty.
How long before you think Fitz closes up his DC shop for good?
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Who knows?
Just because he's made that Rove announcement doesn't mean the investigation has ended, does it?

He's kept it so perfectly secret, and so brilliantly controlled - I love how this guy works - there's no way of knowing where anything is regarding this investigation.

The beat goes on, as far as I'm concerned, until Fitzgerald says otherwise.

See, that's the trick - only what comes from Fitzgerald has any meaning now. All the others are minor players, and, consequently, as just making nonsense, buzzing sounds.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #15
40. Before Fitz even got the case, John Dean urged Joe Wilson to go to
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 10:17 AM by KoKo01
Civil Court. He made the point that Civil Court would force evidence that a Special Counsel couldn't from the government. He wrote a very lengthy article at "Find Law" website about the differences in what Civil Courts are allowed to focus on.

Joe Wilson decided not to for whatever reason. At the time Dean's argument was so convincing that when Fitz got the case I was very disappointed. Not in Fitz but that John Dean had so heavily cautioned about how much harder it would be for a Special Counsel to get documents from these thugs.

I hope that Wilson goes on with this. I think it's too important and I believe that the Umpire has thrown so much sand at Fitzgerald that it will be a long time if ever before he can get anyone higher than Libby or anyone like Libby. Given all the document shredding and midnight planning sessions to get their stories all in order while Ashcroft dawdled with the Plame Outing before recusing himself...it would be hard to believe that most roads after Libby don't dead end with folks actually having woven such convincing lies that no one could possibly ferret out enough evidence to come up with another indictment. Plus the Bushies have powerful legal minds and help on their side that goes beyond the Luskin's who are just mouthpieces. They have the whole Bush/Reagan empire of lawyers who have gotten the high and mighty powerful off the hook for decades. As good as Pat Fitzgerald is...it's an awfully large stable of lawyers for him with limited resources to be able to fully compete with. :-(
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OldLeftieLawyer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #40
51. It wasn't Fitzgerald - it was the law, as it's written
From the beginning, I've posted over and over here at DU that the law Fitzgerald was charged with applying was badly-drawn, badly-drafted, badly-everything, and I gave people guides to finding out about that law, its history and the person who wrote it.

It's impossible to charge anyone under the law as it currently stands. Fitzgerald was never going to be able to prove anything against anyone, and it has nothing to do with his lawyer skills or those of his staff - it was always all about how the law was worded, and how impossible it is to apply.

That said, there is absolutely nothing to prove that the White House had anything to do with Fitzgerald's investigation. I should think that, given the known integrity and honor and incredible record of passionate love and respect for the law that Patrick Fitzgerald has brought to this matter, suggesting otherwise betrays an ignorance of the judicial process as well as the history of its players in this incident.

By the way, the resources of this investigation were just about unlimited. Whoever told you otherwise gave you bad information. You do know what Fitzgerald's "real" job is, don't you?

As for Joe Wilson, I'm suspicious of someone who craves the spotlight so much. His issues, as much as the grieve him and his wife, are ancillary to things that are much more important to our country right now. I daresay his bloodlust got the better of him when he decided to make the Karl Rove matter a cause celebre, and now it's blown up in his face. John Dean - who is probably the most remarkable example of rehabilitation in my lifetime, and I applaud him for it - gave him splendid advice, but it's not surprising that Wilson eschewed it, given his demonstrated love for the spotlight.

Civil cases are powerful tools - check and see what the South Poverty Law Center has managed to do with the concept - but they're not as sexy as criminal cases. Joe Wilson didn't heed excellent legal advice, and now he's wasted a whole lot of taxpayers' money and time with his need to see Rove frogmarched (an unfortunate turn of phrase that's come back to bite him on his butt) out of the White House. I hope the Wilson/Plames can make their peace with this whole sordid mess. It would seem that Ms. Plame's first book deal has already gone sour, which is significant, a testimony to the bad judgment of Joe Wilson.

Alas.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #51
55. While I agree that Wilson is a bit of a
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 05:06 PM by KoKo01
grandstander just what is one supposed to do when faced with stolen elections, a "stacked" Supreme Court, feckless Democrats(exceptions for Black Caucus in House and a few real old style Dems Populists who get it) who can't even figure out what they stand for throughout Clinton and up to NOW?

I'm glad to see that you agree that Wilson should have gone the "Civil Suit" route, though.

I hope he will do it. And, I admire his BRAVADO when we know that the Repugs have used theater, garroting, thugish, mobstyle behavior. In the light of what Repugs do..Joe and Valerie Wilson are the "Theater of Democrats" not..as you seem to imply the "Theater of the Absurd and OTT."

I appreciate your comments. We probably disagree on minor points.

I always enjoy your observations.
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idgiehkt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #3
53. journalists put stuff in stories all the time that they don't understand.
All. The. Time.

Firedog lake bloggers talked about this at the convention last weekend, with regards to the journalists making so many mistakes about this issue, about how every one that they knew of that had written about this had been 'spun badly'. Not just Leopold.

Same goes with electronic voting issues. It's so complicated journalists can't even write about it, which is probably one reason they don't write about it more.

Rather got spun on the Bush/Vietnam thing, because he didn't understand the stuff about the typewriter, and how it could be faked/forged.

It happens every single day, far from rare.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
10. Any other reporter....
...would've been fired weeks ago for the kind of stuff Leopold pulled. He was either incredibly sloppy, fabricated the whole thing, or both.

This also reflects poorly on Truthout. I applaud them for standing by their reporters and giving them a lot of professional freedom to do their jobs, but at some point you have to clamp down. Truthout did not help their or Leopold's case with the subsequent updates regarding the story.

I hope they can recover.
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progmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. good point
:thumbsup:
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. from an editorial context it definitely does
I think the volume of information they get from all kinds of sources is still rock solid though.

It's tough to say what happened here other than the two points you made about being sloppy, fabrication or both. Maybe he was able to keep his job because TO is a relatively small website and the resources to go out and get another reporter or reporters weren't there, I don't know. I hope they can recover as well.
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #23
27. I think your point about TO is right on.
To face facts, they're simply not a significant news operation in either size or stature. So in a lot of areas they have some leeway....they can fill in those gaps that other places avoid even though they have massive resources in comparison.
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RedEarth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
12. Good post.........
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 08:54 AM
Response to Original message
14. You're right, Leopold doesn't get a pass for screwing up...
but the question is-- what now?

Blindly trashing everyone surrounding him is flat out wrong, of course, and Truthout itself still stands as a great resource. Baby, bathwater, innit...

But what of Leopold? Do we dump him like Jason Blair as a fraud and liar or accept him as capable of the same human failures we all have and hope he learns from this screwup?

You bring up Sy Hersh, but Hersh is a giant among journalists with enormous resources, while most are just dreaming of his sources. Perhaps mere mortals working for struggling online journals should be given a second chance.

It's not like this is the first time this has happened.

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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
28. well, yeah he sure doesn't have Sy's resources
but the principle is still the same, you know? You don't run something that you cannot verify. He was putting forth stuff that he didn't fully understand etc. As for a second chance, you know, that just depends on his employers, I guess. Typically, I am willing to give a person the benefit of the doubt on something like that. But the bottom line with him is, in the end, whether he doesn't have a ton of resources or he works for a struggling online journal or not, it is his job to not get burned like that and you do that by verifying everything. If you can't do that, well, don't write the story.
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TreasonousBastard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #28
45. No argument there, I'm just sayin'...
that this isn't the first time a publication got burned by a reporter out to make his bones with a big scoop.

Ain't a perfect world out there, and there are much bigger fish to fry. Rushing to judgment is as bad as rushing a story.

Chasten Leopold and see how it goes from there.




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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #45
48. right on
plus isn't Rove's lawyer the only one saying this stuff so far? He can't be the definitive word on it that's for sure.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
21. I think we should remember that Wilson said he had heard the same
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 09:06 AM by higher class
thing as Leopold. Wilson isn't a journalist, but he could have indicated that Leopold proceed with caution or something like that if he didn't also somewhat believe it or believe in the source.

I am one who is very unhappy with DUers who are attacking Truthout.

May I remind everyone that Republicans demanded that Clinton be pure. They would not settle for anything less than perfection when you analyze their 15 years of moralizing about him. They demanded Clinton be perfect and crucified him when he wasn't. But, George can be imperfect. And lying and killing is OK.

I prefer imperfections and I don't crucify people who MAY have made a mistake.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
31. Much food for thought.
I would, however, like to make two points.
First-speculation-My own reading of the jason Leopold debacle suggests that his "sources" saw a chance to pull a really shitty trick on an over eager, dieing for a scoop, somewhat naive writer. An outsider, desperately wishing to be on the inside.
As I well remember, Mr. Leopold vowed to "out" those selfsame sources if his info proved false--millions of us are now waiting; the torches and pitchforks are not out, but someone should apologize and explain.

Secondly, while I have high regard for Mr. Pitt, I do not carry a like picture of his inerrancy.
I am regularly reminded of September, 2004, when Kerry seemed to be floundering, apparently unable to shuck the vile accusations and framing from the clueless radical rightwing conspiracy, and the DU board was in an uproar of despair and anger: patriots all, we were desperate for something, anything, to stop the bleeding and strike back--with enough vigor to bring some truth to the contest.

In an apparent effort to buoy our spirits and consolidate Mr. Kerry's wavering support, Mr. Pitt offered some veiled hints that the master boatman was, at any moment, going to do the unexpected, for which he was rightly famous, and turn his boat into the enemy to deliver the knockout strike.
As time went on, Mr. Pitt's rumblings became more forceful, with the added suggestion of inside information from the Kerry camp, itself. This continued until it could no longer be maintained and became a magnificent bust, with nothing new coming to the fore, merely warmed-over arguments. The ending resembled this 24 business hour kabuki that recently transpired.

Forgive my lack of enthusiasm, but that still rankles.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. oh, I don't mean to say he cannot be wrong
not by any means. I am not a Will Pitt suck up, by any means. The guy has a pretty good track record dating back to his book with Scott Ritter. I am just not willing to condemn Marc Ash, Will Pitt and Truthout for a catastrophic mistake that, in the end, was Jason Leopold's doing. I see too many people making excuses for Leopold, and it's not Will Pitt or Marc Ashe's fault that the guy wrote that story. It is their fault for backing him up, yes, but the lion's share of the blame here rests on a reporter who printed something that he could not absolutely verify. I mention my story about interviewing Will to say that, at least in my dealings with him, he has been an honest and credible guy.
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #34
37. Thank you!
For helping me clear that up. ;>)
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. hey no problem
we're all here to get our opinions out and become better informed. :) No use having a battle over something that we basically agree on, you know? :)
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
42. Jason Leopold is not like "everyone".He is supposed to be
a "journalist". He is supposed to search for the truth and verify it.You give him an escape route with "everyone makes mistakes, and to even mention him in the same paragraph as Sy Hersh is a disgrace! Leopold already had a bad reputation before he worked for Truthout. He has done this before. I have lost my respect for Truthout. They ought not to have hired him to begin with. And why would they allow him to do this to them twice? Complex? I don't think Truthout's reasons are "complex" I think they are desperate and juvenile!

And Jason Leopold does change the perception of Truthout. It doesn't matter what the other journalists are writing. This makes them suspect as well. They may not deserve the appellation but by continuing to stand by a story proven false they are also stung by the appellation.
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Wetzelbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. no I didn't say that...
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 10:57 AM by Wetzelbill
I agree with you, just check it out over again.

I say everybody makes mistakes yeah, but his excuses only go so far. That as a journalist he should never write a story without absolutely verifying his sources. My whole post is about not making excuses for him, which I see quite a bit on other threads. The point is he wrote a sensationalistic story about a huge public issue and did so without knowing 100 percent sure that he was right. I mention Sy Hersh, not to compare Leopold to him, but to say that Hersch gets all kinds of sensationalistic tips about big stories too, yet he doesn't publish a story without having all of his facts straight. What I am saying is if Leopold held himself to that same standard, simply verifying the facts before publishing something than, he would not be in the mess he is now.

Now other journalists don't specifically write for Truthout. They bring in a clearinghouse of information. Including the aforementioned Sy Hersch. So if Sy Hersch writes and article for The New Yorker and TO chooses to publish it on their site which they always do, well that doesn't exactly make anything Sy wrote suspect does it? No, it would be ridiculous to say so. Often TO is the only place - or one of the only sites - that gets articles like that for free for there readers. That is why I maintain they are still a good site to check out.
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blueraven95 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #42
44. could you qualify what you mean by Leopold doing this before?
I have heard this statement so many times in the past couple of weeks (and especially today), but I have no idea what people are talking about. He never really registered on my radar before last month, except as one of the Truthout reporters I didn't read on a regular basis, so I have no idea of the back story on him. Thanks.
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. This is the back story. I can't believe Truthout hired him!
Posted Friday, October 11, 2002
Salon's response to Jason Leopold's statements re Thomas White e-mail brouhaha.

Salon decided to remove freelancer Jason Leopold's Aug. 29, 2002 story about Thomas White and Enron from its site at the end of a two-week-long investigation. At the time we made that decision we felt that it spoke for itself and did not think reporting every detail served any purpose. Now, Leopold has distributed an account of the events that led up to our decision that is riddled with inaccuracies and misrepresentations, and that omits the most important factors behind Salon's decision to take down his story -- factors that relate to his own credibility. Salon now has no choice but to respond and set the record straight.

Before we started working with Leopold, we spoke to journalists who had worked with him at Dow Jones Newswires and other publications, and they all praised his work. None told us about the significant corrections Dow Jones had had to make on Leopold's reporting that were later cited in a New York Times story about this matter.

Our initial review of Leopold's White story included detailed verification of many of the documents Leopold alludes to relating to Enron Energy Services' Lilly and Quaker Oats deals. Nothing in our review then or thereafter has raised questions about the authenticity of those documents or the accuracy of Leopold's reporting of them.

However, no Salon editor actually saw, before publication, the e-mail mentioned in the story -- purportedly from Thomas White to a colleague, reading "Close a bigger deal. Hide the loss before the 1Q." We recognize now that this was a mistake, and we regret it.

On Sept. 17, an editor at the Financial Times contacted Salon and expressed concern that some material in Leopold's story might have been plagiarized from an article that ran in his newspaper on Feb. 4, 2002. This was a serious charge and we investigated it quickly and carefully. It turned out that, indeed, Leopold had used seven full paragraphs amounting to 480 words, virtually verbatim, from the FT. There were two attributions to the FT within the passage, but they appeared to apply only to the specific sentences that contained them, not to the full passage.

Salon senior editor Kerry Lauerman, Leopold's editor at Salon, asked Leopold if he could explain what happened. Leopold told us he felt that the Financial Times' reporters had in fact based their work on his own earlier reporting on Dow Jones Newswires. We asked Leopold to send us evidence, and he e-mailed us a document that appeared to be a Jan. 15, 2002, Dow Jones Energy Service report by him. But when we contacted Dow Jones to verify the story, they informed us that they had no record of it in their database. Leopold told us that he believed Dow Jones had "deleted 420 of my stories" from its archive. We pressed Dow Jones for a formal statement and this is what they wrote us: "Articles published by Dow Jones Newswires are included in a database available through Factiva. There has been no purging, let alone a wholesale purging, of articles from that database, whether written by Mr. Leopold or any other Dow Jones reporter. In short, no one at Dow Jones can find a copy of the article you have sent to us that is described as having been published on Dow Jones Newswires on January 15; no one at Dow Jones has any recollection of ever working on or reading that article before it was sent to us by Salon."

At this point and throughout the remainder of this process, reaching Leopold became more difficult. We felt these issues were matters of considerable urgency, and at least two Salon editors were spending the bulk of their time on this problem, but Leopold would disappear for a day or two or fail to respond to us.

In the absence of any corroborating evidence to support Leopold's version of events, we decided to post a correction noting what we reluctantly had to conclude was an instance of plagiarism. Leopold still maintains that his two brief attributions to the FT mean that he did not plagiarize. The original version of his story remains in the Nexis archives, so readers are free to review it in its original form and draw their own conclusions.

As the questions surrounding the Dow Jones story began to multiply, we felt we had no choice but to review every aspect of Leopold's original story for us, again. It was only at this stage of our investigation, Sept. 20, that Leopold finally provided us with the evidence supporting his story's account of an e-mail from White. What he provided was a fax of a printout of an e-mail exchange. We noticed immediately that the wording on the e-mail -- "Close a bigger deal. Hide the loss before the 1Q" -- was different from the wording in Leopold's story ("Close a bigger deal to hide the loss"). When we published our correction notice concerning the Financial Times plagiarism on Sept. 23, we also corrected that wording, as we continued to investigate the e-mail itself.

The faxed e-mail contained no e-mail addresses or other headers, and that raised our concern, as did a published denial from White in a letter to the New York Times, where columnist Paul Krugman had picked up Leopold's story. We told Leopold we needed to authenticate the e-mail. He told us the name of his source for it, and Lauerman told Leopold he was going to call the source to verify the e-mail. The source denied ever having spoken to Leopold.

With sensitive investigative stories, it can happen that a source will get "cold feet," and that was certainly a possibility in this situation. Leopold assured us that he had cell phone records to prove that he had indeed talked to the source on numerous occasions. Then he told us that he didn't have the cell phone bill, but he would have the phone company send it to us by the morning of Monday, Sept. 30.

We were increasingly concerned that the process was becoming drawn out, but felt we needed to review the phone records. By early Monday afternoon we had not received them, and found that Leopold was not returning our calls or e-mails. Later that afternoon we received a call not from Leopold but from a relative of his who was also apparently serving as his attorney and intermediary.

First, this intermediary had a phone company representative in a conference call read off phone numbers and dates of calls to us -- but they were calls to a different source in the story than to the one Leopold had told us was his source for the e-mail. Furthermore, all the calls took place after the story had been published. Next, the intermediary explained that the delay in getting the cell phone bill was because the phone belonged to Leopold's wife, not to Leopold himself, and that the bill had been at Leopold's home all along, and that he would fax it to us shortly.

When we reviewed this phone bill early Tuesday it contained numerous calls to the "other source" phone number (the same one the phone-service rep had cited the previous evening), but only one call to the number of the source Leopold originally named as the supplier of the White e-mail. The call was only one minute long, indicating that it was possibly unanswered, and in any case hardly long enough to conduct any sort of interview or obtain a fax of a sensitive e-mail. In any case, the call had taken place five days after Leopold had filed an early draft of the story that already quoted the e-mail.

At this point we concluded that we were never going to get the supporting evidence Leopold kept promising, and decided to remove the story.

There were other inconsistencies and problems we encountered as we worked with Leopold to try to reconfirm all aspects of his story, but these were the most important. At the end of this process we felt that the essential trust between editor and writer that underlies all reliable journalism had broken down, and that in the wake of that breakdown, we had no choice but to take the story down.

It was not an action we sought. After all, our interest all along was to try to support the story. Contrary to Leopold, Salon has been under no pressure of any kind about this story. There has been no "political pressure." If there had been, we would have been delighted to report on it and expose it. There have been no legal threats (except veiled ones from Leopold himself). We operated on our own schedule, not one related to other media coverage. We tried to balance the time necessary for a careful review with the responsibility to report to the public quickly as problems with the story emerged.
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blueraven95 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Thank you.
People have been posting a lot of accusations about him, with nothing to explain what they are talking about. It is refreshing to actually know.

If this is true (and it seems it must be) then I am very sorry Truthout got involved with him. What a shame.
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RagingInMiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 03:14 AM
Response to Reply #46
57. Jason Leopold=Jayson Blair
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
56. OLL -- I'm Not Sure You'll Appreciate Me Blocking Your Posts
Edited on Wed Jun-14-06 03:08 AM by Tace
But, really, I've had enough of your haughty snoot. I'm down on Leopold, too. But, I've had quite enough of your pontification. Later.

On Edit: Spelling
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #56
61. You have answered the wrong post . Just FYI! Cheers!
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 03:36 AM
Response to Original message
58. K&R.
Truthout is still a good source of info.

I can think of a slew of major publications that reported that Iraq was a major threat to the U.S. when it CLEARLY was not.

I will continue to have a greater trust in Truthout than I will in the corporate media.
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