If people stopped to read the law,

[OldLeftieLawyer]

the one about outing CIA operatives, they'd have understood that it's an almost-impossible law to enforce.

Fitzgerald was really at a disadvantage with this one, it's so badly drafted.

And, if people were to take the time to read up on the history of this law, they'd have learned that it was drafted by one Victoria Toensing. They should know who she is, or, if they don't, they should research her, and maybe then they'd begin to grasp why their hysteria about getting Rove indicted via this particular law was never - NEVER - going to happen.

No one is going to be indicted under this law. That's how impossible it is to apply.

That's why Libby was charged with perjury, not with breaking the "outing an operative" law.

I've watched all this "Fitzmas" bullshit for months here, people zeroing in on Rove being indicted. This one was written on the bathroom walls from the beginning, if only people had taken the time to read and think.

Now, all the wailing doesn't change anything, but it does put to rest the fact that that absurd Jason Leopold story about a May 12 indictment was nothing but the worst kind of lying, and maybe that's the best that can come of this sorry saga. Leopold's not nearly as potent as Rove, but they do seem to be quite alike - liars, scammers, opportunists, arrogant headcases without a shred of respect for others who manage to convince the unthinking to go along with them, no matter what.

So, now the lamenting will go on, and maybe there'll be something learned here. I hope so. Rove wasn't important, except that people latched onto him via Joe Wilson's unfortunate comment about hoping to see him marched out of the White House in handcuffs, or something equally ridiculous. Joe Wilson's got to back away from this now, too, because, when you look at all the other things that are going on here with our country, this Plame matter is minor potatoes.

There are elections coming up, and they're not that far away. Energy, grassroots works, dedication, and the same kind of focus and single-minded intensity that the Republicans have shown these past twenty or so years is what the Democrats need to take back our government.

I'd mostly given up posting here at DU because the screaming of the insane harpies who chose to see any challenge to the Leopold bullshit story as some kind of personal attack on some guy who posts here and who had some involvement with keeping that bullshit story alive got to be tiresome, plus they were really stupid. This life is too short to deal with hysterical, delusional groupies without a clue.

Kind of sad when that sort of nonsense closes down intelligent discussion, but people's fantasies can be powerful motivators.

Now, if everyone can put the Rove business away and get about supporting the local candidates in the primaries and through November, if we can take back our America and start making things right, maybe everyone will look back at all this and laugh and think, "Gee, what a waste of time that was."

Let's just put flowers on Rove's grave and truthout's grave, and then get about the business of living. And kicking Republican ass.

[raccoon]

1. Great post. Thanks for passing that along about the law,

"the one about outing CIA operatives, they'd have understood that it's an almost-impossible law to enforce. "

[treestar]

2. Ordinary people don't just go and read the law, maybe if you

had used your superior knowledge and directed people to it, you would be more convincing. As it is, you just turn people off by insulting them because they haven't done something that most nonlawyers would never do.

If you have superior knowledge you can use it to educate people, or you can be snide about it, imply you have superior knowledge and that therefore it makes you personally superior and look down at everybody who wouldn't know where to start in looking for the law.

Merely because people didn't go to law school doesn't make them idiots. .

[stop the bleeding]

3. from one idiot to another

welcome to ignore-land-universe

[Mikimouse]

8. Not attacking, but, after reading almost all the threads...

about this matter, OLL most certainly did try and educate people about the legal hassles associated with the supposed case against Rove. she was roundly attacked on multiple fronts by the sycophants for her efforts.

[DancingBear]

10. That is part of the educating process, however

People were quick to latch onto ANYTHING that resembled an indictment, but were not willing to do the legwork required to see if it was viable.

ALL posters here should learn to trust and verify (I can't believe I actually said that) - it shouldn't be up to other posters.

Remember yesterday how people delved into researching "Sealed vs. Sealed"? Look what came from that - the discovery of numerous cases so named, and not just the one that Leopold implied was Rove. THAT is how you do research.

A lot of us - including me, and I damned sure ain't no lawyer - looked into the above mentioned Toensing (who, BTW, is married to Joe DiGenova, and if you don't know who THAT clown is you need to hit the books) law in detail when this whole thing went down. It's one of the reasons I was skeptical, though truth be told I STILL thought they were gonna get him. :)

Only by doing our OWN homework will we be confident in our own conclusions.

[Igel]

14. You're recently added to the DU roster,

but a few people cited and quoted the law extensively. It didn't make any difference; the law requires that the person outing the agent have clearance entititling them to know the agent's status, and that the person know both the agent's status and that the CIA was actively taking steps to protect the agent's covert status. I must have posted the actual text of the law a half-dozen times, and had people telling me the law couldn't possibly mean what it says.

The few times I got through to people, they argued that an even fuzzier anti-espionage law was more clear.

I'm not a lawyer. Just a linguist who knows findlaw.com exists and is seldom intimidated by anything in writing (that's not intended to be an actual threat, that is).

But this entire fight happened before you registered, so you probably missed it. OldLeftie's not referring to you; you're collateral damage.

[sendero]

4. I for one...

.. never expected any charge other than perjury or obstruction of justice. If they couldn't get Libby on the "outing" law, why would they be able to get Rove?

[5X]

5. Karl Rove's victory dance is so much sweeter because of JL. n/t

[newblewtoo]

6. Are you saying

Fitzgerald set a perjury trap for Libby to try and get him to roll on bigger fish? If no crime was committed what the hell was Fitzgerald doing indicting Libby? This appears to be a part of the legal profession which I least understand, like with the Clintons it seems to be a game of gotcha.

What we have seen is an amazing distraction from the real goal of increasing Democrats positions in the '06 election.

[Jacobin]

7. We don't need True Believers

That's what Faux is for.

What we need is reality and I thank you for your post.

[omega minimo]

9. OLL-- can you post or link on that info, including Toensing?

Maybe something that you have posted to DU previously? A line or two about the legality you are citing?

"this Plame matter is minor potatoes.

"There are elections coming up, and they're not that far away. Energy, grassroots works, dedication, and the same kind of focus and single-minded intensity that the Republicans have shown these past twenty or so years is what the Democrats need to take back our government."


"Minor potatoes"? How so? How do you apply energy and dedication to grassroots work without addressing the actions of this administration with the American people? Are campaigns gonna face facts with "the people" or patronize their comprehension by limiting to "kitchen table issues?


Repugs didn't succeed through "focus and single-minded intensity"-- they got to power via lying, cheating and stealing.

[Strong Atheist]

11. I have done a bit of research on both that law and Victoria Toensing .

You are correct on all counts.

[Ohio Joe]

12. Agreed

I think it would have been wonderfull if Rove had in fact been indicted but following your posts on the matter and doing a little research into what you had to say, I really did not expect it could happen. Now, I plan to focus on doing my part in making sure Blackwell is prevented from being in any position of power here in Ohio.

[deaniac21]

13. You were one of the very few voices of reason on this matter.

Thanks for the education in the way the law works!

[Seabiscuit]

15. Kudos, OldLeftieLawyer!

Great reflection. If the harpies who chewed up this forum for the past month could now "get over it", as they have been so fond of saying about us doubters, hopefully learn something about critical thinking for a change, discard their faith-based hero worship and wishful thinking, refocus all that energy and join the rest of us in working hard to take our country back with constructive action, we can all be a force to be reckoned with.

Good to see you here again, Leftie! I've missed your insightful posts.