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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 09:59 AM
Original message
minirant - "They All Do It!" - Rallying Cry Of The Losing And Dishonest
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 10:00 AM by DistressedAmerican
I have noticed that whenever a politician gets him or herself in trouble, those that support them immediately start crying, "THEY ALL DO IT!". Bushbots are busy doing it right now over the abuse of presidential power that he has been outed for. But do not think this is exclusively a repug issue. I heard the same thing all the time during the Clinton impeachment. At that time I told everyone that would listen that we should get ANY politician that breaks the law. If we do not, we fall into the notion that "All politicians are liars." The implication of that being that none of them should be punished because hey, they are all corrupt.

I have never heard a more intellectually lazy argument to justify crime. I for one have no party loyalty. Clinton was not my boy. Bush certainly isn't. Acceptance of widespread corruption is still acceptance of corruption. Anyone that puts party above law and Constitution is a danger to this country.

THEY SHOULD ALL BE TAKEN DOWN WHEN THEY BREAK THE LAW. Period.

Anyone that makes the "they all do it" argument is really saying I do not care if the rich and powerful break the laws. I do not care if my civil rights are stripped away one by one. In effect they are saying that they do not care about themselves or their relationship to the government.

Fuck anyone that comes with this lame ass excuse for abuses of governmental power! They may be willing to accept corruption in our elected leaders. I for one do not. Not under any circumstances. Repug or Dem they should ALL be held accountable for their actions.

Hell, you are!

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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Rallying cry of the trapped Republicon criminal, really.
It's not "whenever a politician gets him or herself in trouble." It's whenever a Republicon gets itself in trouble. I've NEVER heard a Dem do this. But Republicons and RWers do this ALL THE TIME.

NGU.



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Surya Gayatri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yes, this is my right-wing
bro's ultimate argument: "They're all crooks and liars--nothing to chose between them. So, just take the money and run". When I counter that it is surely a matter of degree, and that the Repubs have taken corruption to new and unparalleled heights, he shuts down. SG
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. You Should Have Been Talking To More People About Clinton.
I am in a super blue state and I heard the same thing from scores of folks. It usually went "All Presidents lie." We do it too. Do not fool yourself. Sometimes we have more in common with these folks than we would like to admit.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. "Some people say?" Isn't that the Faux defense?
Prove it. I NEVER heard anyone make that ridiculous arguement during the attempted RW coup against Clinton.

NGU.


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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Lacking Transcripts Of All OF Those Conversations, I Can't Prove It.
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 10:39 AM by DistressedAmerican
Disbelieve me if you would like. Although you have no basis to assess what was or was not said to me in conversation. I would never make the ridiculous assertion that you were or were not told something. I would certainly never insist that you prove to mu that you were or were not told something. That is just fucking silly. I do not have to prove anything to you.

I had the conversations I am referring to. If that is so unbelievable to you, I suggest you get outside of your circle of friends. I think you may be in a bubble.
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BOSSHOG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
2. And "those that support them"
offer no proof of said statement. However, by saying it and "believing" that those they hate do the same things they feel better about themselves really knowing that their team isn't that bad after all. They make the grey areas all black and white. They are way too proud to admit that their heros of the gop could possibly do anything dastardly and on purpose.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
5. One Irony of Conservatism
Is that even when their politicians are proven to be dishonest crooks, it kind of helps prove their point. Conservatives want people to believe that the Government is powerless and a constant failure, so that people won't trust it to solve domestic issues (and just use it to blow the hell out of countries a long way from here).

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
8. I hardly think that Dems went around saying "All politicians
Edited on Fri Dec-30-05 10:44 AM by WinkyDink
have affairs."
That is, ELECTED Dems, which is the only true comparison to make here, since it's actually ELECTED Republicans (and their media mouthpieces, such as VToensing) who are claiming Clinton also broke wire-tap laws.

What run-of-the-mill Americans assert or believe is neither here nor there, in this legal regard.
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. No, Their Agument Was That Purjury And Obstruction Do Not Rise
to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors". Let's hope Bushco faces impeachment on those two charges. If they ever do our own quotes will come flooding back like a tidal wave.

If the people have no say on anything political, why do we vote? If we want impeachment and congress stands in the way, congress will pay.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I don't remember anyone making that argument.
Perjury and lying under oath are not the same. Among other things, perjury has to do with whether or not the lie is considered a material fact or not, and whether you are under oath or not. Also, the perjurer's statement must be identified to charge such a crime, which I believe was never done in the Clinton impeachment, because there were none.

And there has to be some indication that a crime has been committed before you can obstruct justice. Even if Bubba had engaged in the acts that were claimed to have occurred, none would be considered a crime. Unethical, perhaps, but definitely not criminal, nor the appearance of a crime.

I think those were the arguments. The whole thing was a sham and should have tossed out by Rehnquist because it was entirely without any legal merit.

I don't remember an argument (especially by Clinton, the defendant in the case) that perjury and obstruction do not rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors. I don't think it ever happened.


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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. What? (Legal theory question)
Dictionary.com: "Perjury: Law. The deliberate, willful giving of false, misleading, or incomplete testimony under oath."

Lectlaw: "PERJURY - When a person, having taken an oath before a competent tribunal, officer, or person, in any case in which a law of the U.S. authorizes an oath to be administered, that he will testify, declare, depose, or certify truly, or that any written testimony, declaration, deposition, or certificate by him subscribed, is true, willfully and contrary to such oath states or subscribes any material matter which he does not believe to be true; or in any declaration, certificate, verification, or statement under penalty of perjury, willfully subscribes as true any material matter which he does not believe to be true; 18 USC

In order for a person to be found guilty of perjury the government must prove: the person testified under oath before ; at least one particular statement was false; and the person knew at the time the testimony was false.

The testimony of one witness is not enough to support a finding that the testimony was false. There must be additional evidence, either the testimony of another person or other evidence, which tends to support the testimony of falsity. The other evidence, standing alone, need not convince that the testimony was false, but all the evidence on the subject must do so."

I don't see any distinction between "perjury" and "lying under oath."
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It's very simple really,
if, I was asked, under oath, "how tall are you?" and I say "six-foot" it can be viewed in a lot of different lights.

1. I could really be 6.00000 ft (highly unlikely)

2. I could be six foot at some time during the day (as you actually get a little shorter standing or taller lying down)

3. I could be close to 6 ft tall

4. I could be intentionally lying to cover up the fact that I wear platform shoes to make me appear taller

5. I could be lying to hide my involvement in a crime. For example, if photos show that the person in question is five-foot tall and I lie to avoid being identified (even as a witness) then that would (and should) make a difference. It becomes material to the truth in a way that merely trying to appear taller does not.

In any event the "ABSOLUTE TRUTH" of my being "six-foot" is only a minor part of the question. To avoid a perjury trap, I would have to have a different answer such as "approximately six-foot" or something like that.

I also want to add another often overlooked point that, I think, has long been recognized and yet recently obscured. Perjury to implicate someone else in a crime should be viewed differently than perjury to exculpate someone. I think this is illustrated in the King James Version of the Ten Commandments:

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Notice how it doesn't say "for thy neighbor"? All the versions of the Ten Commandments that the right-wing is try to put everywhere leave out the "against thy neighbor" phrase. Why is that? Clearly it has a different meaning when the whole thing is considered.

The reason I mention this is that in the Martha Stewart case, it was reported that an FBI dude lied to the jury under oath. This information was kept from the jury by the judge. Martha, on the other hand, if she lied she did it to protect a friend of hers, and she wasn't under oath. She went to jail and the FBI dude didn't.

Our legal system (and our religious views) are being turned on their heads by these people.
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patriotvoice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Thank you; lucid and informative
Fascinating; I've never really considered intentions (exculpatory or implicative) as part of perjury. After a bit more research, it seems that Aristotle first differentiated between the "perjury of a promissory oath, breaking an oath, and the perjury of an assertory oath, intentionally swearing a false oath."

Special Agents are given a wide berth; they are heavily screened, trained, and ultimately entrusted with impeccably administering the duties of their office:

"I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God."

As Director Freeh stated in the Hanssen Espionage Case:

"A betrayal of trust by an FBI Agent, who is not only sworn to enforce the law but specifically to help protect our nation's security, is particularly abhorrent. This kind of criminal conduct represents the most traitorous action imaginable against a country governed by the Rule of Law. It also strikes at the heart of everything the FBI represents -- the commitment of over 28,000 honest and dedicated men and women in the FBI who work diligently to earn the trust and confidence of the American people every day."

When an Agent "lies," they're generally presumed innocent of willfull intent and simply in error. Citizens, and specifically defendents, are not usually given so gracious a margain.
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Usrename Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Wow! That's a great quote by Freeh. Thanks for sharing it.
I do think that in the Martha case the FBI dude was simply in error, or more precisely, didn't fully understand the other implications of the question. Or, he did it on purpose to make sure she got convicted.

The difference between those two things is stark. I'm no lawyer, but I believe in some states that if you intentionally put someone in jeopardy by perjured testimony that you can receive up to the same sentence as they would have receive if they were convicted.

I don't know if it's true or not but it came up once when a guy I know saw his friend do something, told me about it, then later tried to pin it on somebody else to collect the reward money. I told him that he could go to jail for the crime. The State Attorney backed me up and told him that it was true, that I was right. I never could get any real answer (ie. case law or a statute or anything) from him, he would just smile at me like "who cares, we solved this thing".

I think Freeh is one of those examples of a person who is a believer, no matter what the facts are. He will go to his death refusing to believe his own lying eyes.

Still, I think Freeh is correct as you quoted him, and we are doomed if we let the honor system completely break down in this country. I fear we are closer to that happening than at any other time in my lifetime, and there is so much riding on it. All of our freedoms...
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
9. When you put yourself up as the morally superior product
above what was before, you really, really, REALLY shouldn't fall back on "Well, he did it too . . ." - especially when you had spent the best part of your campaign pointing out what a real liar the previous guy was . . .
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DistressedAmerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Restoring Dignity To The White House And All!


DIGNIFIED!

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-30-05 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
14. logical fallacy - bandwagon
bandwagon fallacy: concluding that an idea has merit simply because many people believe it or practice it. (e.g., Most people believe in a god; therefore, it must prove true.) Simply because many people may believe something says nothing about the fact of that something. For example many people during the Black plague believed that demons caused disease. The number of believers say nothing at all about the cause of disease.


and there are many more:

Understanding common Logic Fallacies is an art and a vaulable tool
Edited on Sat Dec-03-05 08:19 PM by BrotherBuzz

When arguing with someone in an attempt to get at an answer or an explanation, you may come across a person who makes logical fallacies. Such discussions may prove futile. You might try asking for evidence and independent confirmation or provide other hypothesis that give a better or simpler explanation. If this fails, try to pinpoint the problem of your arguer's position. You might spot the problem of logic that prevents further exploration and attempt to inform your arguer about his fallacy. The following briefly describes some of the most common fallacies (I'm not sure why, but most RW talkshow hosts resort to logic fallacies all the time. My sport is catching them in the act ):



ad hominem: Latin for "to the man." An arguer who uses ad hominems attacks the person instead of the argument. Whenever an arguer cannot defend his position with evidence, facts or reason, he or she may resort to attacking an opponent either through: labeling, straw man arguments, name calling, offensive remarks and anger.



appeal to ignorance (argumentum ex silentio) appealing to ignorance as evidence for something. (e.g., We have no evidence that God doesn't exist, therefore, he must exist. Or: Because we have no knowledge of alien visitors, that means they do not exist). Ignorance about something says nothing about its existence or non-existence.



argument from omniscience: (e.g., All people believe in something. Everyone knows that.) An arguer would need omniscience to know about everyone's beliefs or disbeliefs or about their knowledge. Beware of words like "all," "everyone," "everything," "absolute."



appeal to faith: (e.g., if you have no faith, you cannot learn) if the arguer relies on faith as the bases of his argument, then you can gain little from further discussion. Faith, by definition, relies on a belief that does not rest on logic or evidence. Faith depends on irrational thought and produces intransigence.



appeal to tradition (similar to the bandwagon fallacy): (e.g., astrology, religion, slavery) just because people practice a tradition, says nothing about its viability.



argument from authority (argumentum ad verecundiam): using the words of an "expert" or authority as the bases of the argument instead of using the logic or evidence that supports an argument. (e.g., Professor so-and-so believes in creation-science.) Simply because an authority makes a claim does not necessarily mean he got it right. If an arguer presents the testimony from an expert, look to see if it accompanies reason and sources of evidence behind it.



argument from adverse consequences: (e.g., We should judge the accused as guilty, otherwise others will commit similar crimes) Just because a repugnant crime or act occurred, does not necessarily mean that a defendant committed the crime or that we should judge him guilty. (Or: disasters occur because God punishes non-believers; therefore, we should all believe in God) Just because calamities or tragedies occur, says nothing about the existence of gods or that we should believe in a certain way.



argumentum ad baculum: An argument based on an appeal to fear or a threat. (e.g., If you don't believe in God, you'll burn in hell)



argumentum ad ignorantiam: A misleading argument used in reliance on people's ignorance.



argumentum ad populum: An argument aimed to sway popular support by appealing to sentimental weakness rather than facts and reasons.



bandwagon fallacy: concluding that an idea has merit simply because many people believe it or practice it. (e.g., Most people believe in a god; therefore, it must prove true.) Simply because many people may believe something says nothing about the fact of that something. For example many people during the Black plague believed that demons caused disease. The number of believers say nothing at all about the cause of disease.



begging the question (or assuming the answer): (e.g., We must encourage our youth to worship God to instill moral behavior.) But does religion and worship actually produce moral behavior?



circular reasoning: stating in one's proposition that which one aims to prove. (e.g. God exists because the Bible says so; the Bible exists because God influenced it.)



composition fallacy: when the conclusion of an argument depends on an erroneous characteristic from parts of something to the whole or vice versa. (e.g., Humans have consciousness and human bodies and brains consist of atoms; therefore, atoms have consciousness. Or: a word processor program consists of many bytes; therefore a byte forms a fraction of a word processor.)



confirmation bias (similar to observational selection): This refers to a form of selective thinking that focuses on evidence that supports what believers already believe while ignoring evidence that refutes their beliefs. Confirmation bias plays a stronger role when people base their beliefs upon faith, tradition and prejudice. For example, if someone believes in the power of prayer, the believer will notice the few "answered" prayers while ignoring the majority of unanswered prayers (which would indicate that prayer has no more value than random chance at worst or a placebo effect, when applied to health effects, at best).



confusion of correlation and causation: (e.g., More men play chess than women, therefore, men make better chess players than women. Or: Children who watch violence on TV tend to act violently when they grow up.) But does television programming cause violence or do violence oriented children prefer to watch violent programs? Perhaps an entirely different reason creates violence not related to television at all. Stephen Jay Gould called the invalid assumption that correlation implies cause as "probably among the two or three most serious and common errors of human reasoning" (The Mismeasure of Man).



excluded middle (or false dichotomy): considering only the extremes. Many people use Aristotelian either/or logic tending to describe in terms of up/down, black/white, true/false, love/hate, etc. (e.g., You either like it or you don't. He either stands guilty or not guilty.) Many times, a continuum occurs between the extremes that people fail to see. The universe also contains many "maybes."



half truths (suppressed evidence): An statement usually intended to deceive that omits some of the facts necessary for an accurate description.



loaded questions: embodies an assumption that, if answered, indicates an implied agreement. (e.g., Have you stopped beating your wife yet?)



meaningless question: (e.g., "How high is up?" "Is everything possible?") "Up" describes a direction, not a measurable entity. If everything proved possible, then the possibility exists for the impossible, a contradiction. Although everything may not prove possible, there may occur an infinite number of possibilities as well as an infinite number of impossibilities. Many meaningless questions include empty words such as "is," "are," "were," "was," "am," "be," or "been."



misunderstanding the nature of statistics: (e.g., the majority of people in the United States die in hospitals, therefore, stay out of them.) "Statistics show that of those who contract the habit of eating, very few survive." -- Wallace Irwin



non sequitur: Latin for "It does not follow." An inference or conclusion that does not follow from established premises or evidence. (e.g., there occured an increase of births during the full moon. Conclusion: full moons cause birth rates to rise.) But does a full moon actually cause more births, or did it occur for other reasons, perhaps from expected statistical variations?



observational selection (similar to confirmation bias): pointing out favorable circumstances while ignoring the unfavorable. Anyone who goes to Las Vegas gambling casinos will see people winning at the tables and slots. The casino managers make sure to install bells and whistles to announce the victors, while the losers never get mentioned. This may lead one to conclude that the chances of winning appear good while in actually just the reverse holds true.



post hoc, ergo propter hoc: Latin for "It happened after, so it was caused by." Similar to a non sequitur, but time dependent. (e.g. She got sick after she visited China, so something in China caused her sickness.) Perhaps her sickness derived from something entirely independent from China.



proving non-existence: when an arguer cannot provide the evidence for his claims, he may challenge his opponent to prove it doesn't exist (e.g., prove God doesn't exist; prove UFO's haven't visited earth, etc.). Although one may prove non-existence in special limitations, such as showing that a box does not contain certain items, one cannot prove universal or absolute non-existence, or non-existence out of ignorance. One cannot prove something that does not exist. The proof of existence must come from those who make the claims.



red herring: when the arguer diverts the attention by changing the subject.



reification fallacy: when people treat an abstract belief or hypothetical construct as if it represented a concrete event or physical entity. Examples: IQ tests as an actual measure of intelligence; the concept of race (even though genetic attributes exist), from the chosen combination of attributes or the labeling of a group of people, come from abstract social constructs; Astrology; god(s); Jesus; Santa Claus, etc.



slippery slope: a change in procedure, law, or action, will result in adverse consequences. (e.g., If we allow doctor assisted suicide, then eventually the government will control how we die.) It does not necessarily follow that just because we make changes that a slippery slope will occur.



special pleading: the assertion of new or special matter to offset the opposing party's allegations. A presentation of an argument that emphasizes only a favorable or single aspect of the question at issue. (e.g. How can God create so much suffering in the world? Answer: You have to understand that God moves in mysterious ways and we have no privilege to this knowledge. Or: Horoscopes work, but you have to understand the theory behind it.)



statistics of small numbers: similar to observational selection (e.g., My parents smoked all their lives and they never got cancer. Or: I don't care what others say about Yugos, my Yugo has never had a problem.) Simply because someone can point to a few favorable numbers says nothing about the overall chances.



straw man: creating a false scenario and then attacking it. (e.g., Evolutionists think that everything came about by random chance.) Most evolutionists think in terms of natural selection which may involve incidental elements, but does not depend entirely on random chance. Painting your opponent with false colors only deflects the purpose of the argument.



two wrongs make a right: trying to justify what we did by accusing someone else of doing the same. (e.g. how can you judge my actions when you do exactly the same thing?) The guilt of the accuser has no relevance to the discussion.

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