In terms of Enlightened Authors, historical figures, etc., who would be

[WiseButAngrySara]

or is Republican/Conservative versus Democratic/Progressive/Liberal?

For example: Socially, Plato was what I would consider 'communistic' in The Republic, but in The Laws very conservative in his treatment of moral punishments, social structuring, and treatment of gays.

Gandhi was quite liberal.

Current writers (the few I know of who are enlightened) Eckhart Tolle, Dr. Thomas Hora, etc. I would think that Tolle is liberal and very opposed to war and supportive of environmental causes, but I really don't know. I'd be quite interested in DUers' ideas on this subject matter. IMO, most 'religious' leaders are conservative/republican, but they are not 'enlightened'.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

1. I don't know about that

John Wesley was ahead of his time in progressive thought-I believe I am correct in saying that the Methodists started Sunday Schools as a way to educate working class children (and not just in religious subjects). And the fellow who started the Salvation Army would, I believe, be called progressive as well.

Many mystical people are not political, but that doesn't make them social conservatives-Pir o Murshid Inayat Khan had women as senior teachers and one as head of the US Order, and this was back in the 1920s. Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, his son and successor, changed the prayers of our Order to be gender neutral, and said that homosexuals were welcome to fully participate in our Order in all capacities. Most Sufis subscribe to the words of Rumi, "Come, come, whoever you are...."

[WiseButAngrySara]

2. Excellent points, ayeshahaqqiqa! I should have stated 'modern'

Christian Religious leaders, especially TV Evangelicals, who are so profit oriented, that I can't separate what they say and what they pocket. A recent christian activist (Civil Rights, Anti-War, etc.) minster Cowan, is a good modern example. It's my opinion that the more enlightened one is, the more truly democratic and progressive one is. One of my most favorite authors is H. I. Khan. Is this the same Khan as you mentioned? He writes so beautifully, on all subjects! (I think H stands for Hazrat and I for Inyat????) I'll look the later point up.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. Hazrat Inayat Khan

the "hazrat" is a title, used for an enlightened one who has passed. There are several books written by Inayat Khan, incluing "The Unity of Religious Ideals", one of my favorites.

[sweetheart]

3. Eckhard tolle & Gangaji

I know gangaji is very political. As she explained in london a few weeks ago, listening
to voices in your head is fundamentalism, and if you are doing that over engaging in this
moment open to life immaculate, you're acting out of fundamentalism, ego, past-self and
failed mindstates.

Enlightenment, by the very nature of the transcendence of the ego-self would incline towards
a universal libertarianism, and many "seekers" of enlightenment fall in to the trap of
egaletarian fundamentalism, as much as it appears the new ideas are good ones, the trap of
preconception and past-definition self remain the trap no matter the veneer.

I have never ever on this earth, knowing several enlightened folks, have enountered a single
one that endorsed in any way the republican culture of death... just in case that is
not intuitively obvious to you as well, and you're just testing us! :-)

[WiseButAngrySara]

4. Oh, this is a good post! Another that comes to mind, only because she

is 'female' (DUH!) and one whom I've read about, but not actually read, is M. Wilkerson(?) who wrote about A Course in Miracles. She seems to be very progressive, anti-war and pro-environment, and some believe her to be enlightened. You are quite correct IMHO about 'enlighted folks', but I just had a real shock when a friend, who purports to be spiritual and enlightened, is a counselor and an artist, and introduced me to Dr. Thomas Hora (we both had read Tolle and others in common), sent me an e-mail, which was mailed to several other people. In this e-mail she stated that she 'loved B*!" It also included a joke about B*. I had just learned (relearned) about Haditha, and to hear her state that she loved B* was more than I could bear. I lombasted her with every example of why an enlightened human could not love lies, evil, murdering, etc., and why had I wasted so much of my time with her protesting B* when she could have told me numerous times that she disagreed with me, or that she didn't share my hatred of B*. Maybe I'm not enlightened enough to be able to love evil. I told her as much. And asked her if she could love Hitler, and she responded in the affirmative! Is she enlightened by loving a Hitler? Or am I not enlightened enough for not being able to forgive, let alone comprehend evil?

[sweetheart]

5. Love

If you are true to love, then love only exists in this moment. By that, then all
the baggage you're carrying in this moment that is not actually grounded in this moment
is being irresponsible to love, betraying your true nature for a false god in one's head
that speaks wise voices... and then what do you worship, love now, or ego-past/future...
who is your master. If hitler were alive now and in front of my, i might love him
as a human being for whatever part of him could come down from his fundamentalist
summit to meet uz in the present.

The fear of hitler, if you experience it totally right now, is a fear of maybe being
one with him, of recognizing that all humanity is more in common than one's psyche
is willing to recognize in survival mode. But that fear is learned from childhood
where one learns to fight for and against what threaten's one's existance... and
hitler is no threat to uz today, none at all. He's an imaginary bugbear, so what is
that fear embedded in the voice in the imagination? Is that fear coming from the
present, or a past pre-learned fundamentalism of conformity for survival?

Being open to the present is scary, but it is the only place where enlightenment
will ever be. It is not some final state of being closed off to the world forever,
but something less absolute and less satisfying of the mind's instinct to find
absolute closure.

Evil as well is just a mental voice in your head, however real it appears. What is it
right now? And if you put your attention in to that experience of "evil" or not being
able to stop evil, what do you feel? The present is the only place where we are ever
free, the only place where free will can ever act, amazingly for the few people who
discover willingness to not worship themselves in past/future tense.

[WiseButAngrySara]

6. Oh, I agree with everything you say! You sound very much like Tolle,

but it is so difficult to live in the moment, without ego, and with only love, when evil staring you in the face! All I know about B* and Hitler as evil is by what I've read. The closest I've come to direct knowledge of evil of these two was the recollections of a professors wife, who had survived the concentration camps as a child. All of this is my memory, or collective memory, and it is not the present 'now', but the memory of the past and the empathetic suffering of those beings on whom this evil is being perpetrated, and the fear of Fascism arising again (like it's not already?) is memory of the past or fear of the future. How can you not respond to evil with hatred, revulsion, horror, anger, etc., and not be like Plato accused many of those in the mystery schools of having done; "escaped to the Isles of the Blessed, while they were still alive..."? Why even talk politics at all if one is enlightened? If Love is Real, then it should be expressed in prevention of evil. Do you love B*? Or Hitler? And why chat on DU if we weren't worried about the way the world is and might be? (Do you see my conundrum?)

[sweetheart]

7. conundrums of the heart

I betray the awareness of immaculate unity to my own demons of past, future
and ego identification. But as well as i can communicate it, the willingness
to "stop", is not willpower, but the deep question inside your heart of
"who is your master.".. "who do you worship" And if in the next moment,
you are filling it with voices of your questions and views, your master is your
ego-mind, and it is your god. Then the ego mind has a million reasons for
its existance like it always has had.

If you really do, on a profound and nonverbal level of intention, wish to be
free of the bondage and suffering of that ego identification, then stop, and
discover what is willing already, what is already present in this moment *before*
your mind cut in and identified it as "yours". The liquid awareness is you, but
it is not yours. "yours" is an illusion.

Fighting for the survival of your culture is just one of the 3 drives that comes
with a body, "reproduction", "social acceptance", and "survival". Unenlighened
life comes from those motives, all derived from the body and the ego's awareness
of its imminent demise.

But what is aware of the ego. What is already present, and has been present for
every moment of your life, and is present now... not your ego, but your consciousness
awareness unattached to this-moment's self. Meditation implies that the ego can
become aware of its absence, but enlightenment is the absence realizeing that the
ego is a fraud entirely, and never existed except a machination derived from
a culture of childhood fear.

... enough psychotalk... :-)

Du's had enough of my babbling about such things... Gangaji has an excellent audio tape
on Amazon called "who are you?" that, if you listen to it thougtfully, will take you
directly to a full-blown samadhi-stopping. From that awakening, all the questions
you ask answer themselves.

namaste,
-s

[WiseButAngrySara]

8. You are a sweetheart! I can't get enough of 'psychotalk'! And thanks

so much for the suggestion of the Gangaji audio tape!

Tolle (and many others, beginning with Plato) state that Divine Mind, Consciousness, Awareness, Divine Love-Intelligence, God, and numerous other names, is all that really is; and we are all an infinitesimal aspect of that. I used to think that consciousness was mind; Tolle and others seem to infer that mind is ego, and that implies that 'God' consciousness is 'heart.' Another conundrum...still working on (distinction between ego-mind, consciousness-mind, heart and soul).

BTW, I just read your drug war post on another thread! All those countries we participated in, in selling guns for drugs? The galling hypocrisy of these Republican 'moralists!' And by what I've expressed in this thread, you hopefully know that I can't believe that 'wisdom' and 'anger' can be simultaneous, as my name would imply. But that gets back to my B*-loving friend...is she more enlightened than I am, or just f-ing deluded? I am ready to give up our friendship over it.

These times are more than trying to the soul; they drive intelligent people to insanity I am sure!

[sweetheart]

10. You might like this thread:

A lot of what you're talking about is in this archived thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2888937