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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:15 PM
Original message
How Do You Tell The Truth From The Lies?
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 01:35 PM by omega minimo
You could say that everything Republicans (and their media enablers) say is a lie. That would be true. Especially now.

You could say that you know they are lies and then somehow still fall for it.



You may wonder how do they get away with it? Why are too many Americans unwilling to face the fact that Yes, It Can Happen Here and Yes, They WOULD Do THAT and Yes, They Are Doing It Right In Front Of Your Face?!



What is the nature of good and evil?

GOOD IS CLARITY, SEEING THE TRUTH
EVIL IS BLINDNESS, DENYING THE TRUTH

"Good is clarity of mind, which brings the ability to see the truth. Evil is blindness or ignorance, which makes the truth impossible to see. In both cases we are speaking about self-centered qualities. The person accepts responsibility for defining "the truth" as he or she sees it. But that raises another accusation. What if the truth is simply whatever is convenient? Perhaps stealing a loaf of bread becomes right because "my truth" is that I am hungry. This sort of situational ethics isn't the real issue, however. The truth is much more elusive and even mystical. It contains a kind of spiritual purity difficult to define. When Jesus taught his followers that "the truth will set you free," he didn't mean a certain set of facts or dogmas but revealed truth. In modern language we might come up with a different translation: seek the knower within, and it will set you free."







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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
1. faith, of course - believe because you were told it is true even though
there is absolutely no evidence to prove it is true. ooops, that's religion. never mind.

Msongs
www.msongs.com
batik & digital art
put your pics on shirts!
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BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
2. See my thread on the IOR...if it's on the news
I just naturally assume it is a damned lie meant to manipulate
the masses.
The truth is no where to be found on the corporate
owned air waves.
Doesn't mean it doesn't exist though, as we know.
BHN
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. LinkHereNow
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
3. Source
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. I Completely Disagree With Those Definitions Of Good And Evil.
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 01:28 PM by OPERATIONMINDCRIME
"Good is clarity of mind, which brings the ability to see the truth. Evil is blindness or ignorance, which makes the truth impossible to see."

'Good' is by far not as simplistic as merely having clarity of mind. Wisdom might be more fitting there, but even then would have far deeper meanings as well. But clarity of mind and the ability to see truth has nothing to do with 'Good', it has to do with perception and intellectual capability. What one does with that truth, with that perception, can be the beginnings of what is good, but 'good' in itself is defined in terms of actions, spirit and moral fabric than it is in how clear ones mind is.

And the definition of evil is even more off base in my opinion. Ignorance is not evil, nor is blindness. Those things might mask the concept of truth but that does not make one evil. It makes them ignorant. In fact, to be evil one would have to have clarity of mind (there's a contradiction!) and awareness to truth, in order to subvert it and choose to take the evil path of lying. So inherent in evil itself is the so called definition of good and the anti-definition to evil, since you not only need clarity of mind but also lack of ignorance. The ignorant are not evil, they are just ignorant. The evil are purposeful and aware of exactly what they are doing. Additionaly, there are many that are ignorant to truth but are deep down 'good'. They simply haven't been made aware yet, or have been led astray by evil.

So all in all, I find that entire packaged definition of 'good' and 'evil' to be completely inaccurate, simplistic and illogical.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. So-- you're unable to see the truth in the statement?
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 02:00 PM by omega minimo
:rofl:
:rofl:

You've got all the dots-- they're just not connected. You are separating perception from action. The point you're trying to make is contained within the complete statement:

"Good is clarity of mind, which brings the ability to see the truth. Evil is blindness or ignorance, which makes the truth impossible to see."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
zonmoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
19. perhaps good is simply that which builds up other people
while evil is simply that which harms other people.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Perhaps good is the natural state
"Evil is blindness or ignorance, which makes the truth impossible to see."

:hug:
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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. If their lips are moving, they are lying.
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NNN0LHI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. You beat me n/t
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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
10. Most Folks Really Don't Want To Know
Most folks do not really care to find out if what they are being led to believe is a rational world view (the only context in which a "nation" has any real meaning for us here) because the effort expended to find out would not result in an improvement in their everyday life. That is a simple sad fact.

However, that doesn't answer your question. The answer lies in suspecting everything and verifying the facts presented to sustain their arguments in favor of policies pending or acted on. The other way to go is to simply deny their argument out of hand - which you can do, but only if you have evidence to support a rational contrary view to that expressed by the omnipresent 'them'. Damned few folks give any matters of national import that sort of thought at all. Why should they?

Anyway that's how you do it. Either deny out of hand and have a plan of your own or take their arguments apart piece by piece as you find unsubstantiated bullshit presented by them. Lotta work ....
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. What about the "bullshit protectors"? Can people trust their gut?
"Most folks do not really care to find out if what they are being led to believe is a rational world view (the only context in which a "nation" has any real meaning for us here) because the effort expended to find out would not result in an improvement in their everyday life. That is a simple sad fact."

That's how it is. "...because the effort expended to find out would not result in an improvement in their everyday life." What about protecting their "everyday life." Why do people think they have the luxury of ignoring what's beyond their little life?
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
11. Because they in their minds they are living in the ..
1940's and 50's movies
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BlackVelvet04 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. You tie them up and throw them in the lake
and if they float they are lying and if they sink you are well rid of them.


Wait......that was for witches, right?

Sorry. Good wine.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. the truth is the turd in the punchbowl of repuke and religious lies
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. That punchbowl full of
KoolAid? :evilgrin:

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."
--George Orwell
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. yup
and they love that Koolaid
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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. "Framing Versus Spin"
Framing Versus Spin
by George Lakoff and Sam Ferguson

Two weeks ago, Rockridge published The Framing of Immigration by George Lakoff and Sam Ferguson, an analysis of the framing surrounding immigration used by progressives and conservatives, as well as a discussion of framings not being used, but which would reveal important truths. Late last week, the DailyKos leaked a memo by Frank Luntz, the Republican messaging strategist, advising Republicans how to talk about immigration. If you want to compare what Rockridge does with what Luntz does, this is your chance....

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0609-31.htm


----

I thought this was interesting - because sometimes people - knowing how Republicans "Frame" things - don't want the Democrats to just have their own fake version of the Frame.

Sometimes it doesn't seem like all the Dem pols have gotten that message, though.

There aren't very many sources I trust.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Cool-- thanks bloom
:hi:

"I thought this was interesting - because sometimes people - knowing how Republicans "Frame" things - don't want the Democrats to just have their own fake version of the Frame."

That's right-- can't fight bullshit with bullshit. I'll take a look at that-- good reference!
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Hidden Stillness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
21. Another Take
"What is truth? Truth is something so noble that if God could turn aside from it, I could keep to the truth and let God go."--Johannes Eckhart, great Medieval Christian mystic; quote from Raymond Blakney translation, etc.

You know, if you carefully read the original post, you can end up with a completely different meaning of the statement, which may even be what was intended. That is, not "how do you distinguish what is true from what is false; how can you tell?" but actually How Do You Tell The Truth FROM The Lies, or, how can you get to truthfulness by having started from the basic material and orientation of the lies and false presentation, because, as a matter of fact, that is exactly what we all have to do all the time. If you have no source of truth, as we do not now, no free press that researches and tells us what is what, no public officials who expose things and yet do not pay a heavy price for it, no statements from our side that manage to get out to the public as they were actually delivered, no relief from the 24-hour-a-day commercial propaganda of the global corporate exploiter, then you can't get the truth, or even a framework of facts, direct. You have only the lies and games, crimes and persecutions, slanders and false fronts, to study and learn from; you can't be educated by the good, you can only infer from the evil.

What people look at and see, what they take notice of in the world--and how--becomes an intentional act, a characterizing of things, and not merely an objective, neutral "finding" of what was there, even though it was claimed to be, and may have even seemed to be. Whenever they "look at" and "see" a woman saying or doing something they don't like, suddenly it was a "bitch" doing it, and all she did from then on was "proof" that she was a "bitch," and that "everyone" has to agree. There was nothing actually "out there" being noticed and named, but an opinion from the thinker's own mind, putting the description there. It was an intent. To describe offensive behavior coming from someone, is not the same as attacking the woman with all the hate you already had there, waiting, then not do the same to a male who did the same. "It's worse when a boy gets raped than when a girl does," they claim, as fact, and this is their "wise compassion" that they "noticed" this. People get tarred with slanderous images and reputations all the time, and yet when you then finally meet them and listen to them, your impression of them can be so tainted that you can't get it out of your mind, yet don't even notice it. How many people "can hear" John Kerry "being" a flip-flopper, even when you know it was a totally phony, made-up ad campaign? Sometimes, when the idea is planted in your head, on some level, you believe it.

Of all the multiples of situations there are to pay attention to, all the multiples of traits, and ways of decribing each trait, each thing was made up of, the thing you claimed you "found" in the world, "as it was," is largely, clearly, your own invention. "Poor people are stupid if they can't find their way out of poverty and unemployment--I did it," then calling themselves "hardheaded realists," for "facing the facts and not being politically correct." Can you count the number of logical errors based on cold hate, listed here? All the favorable attributions go my way, all the dismissive contempt goes the other; my situation is equated to the poorest people who have no resources whatsoever--highly unlikely, even for me; several attitudes are muddled together, so that unfeeling coldness for the needy poor is equated with "bravely" going against the crowd, like a rebel, oooh! If any poor person ever does exhibit any ignorance on any topic--as we all do--then, bam!, there is the "proof," where there was really no such thing, only a fake connection invented. The lie is "chosen," by evil. Some silly people even attack women for being offended that males call everything good and courageous as "having balls," attacking women as not deserving their own truth and perspective on their own lives, and the bigotry against them. "They're just animals, not like us," you look at them, and never see or know them at all. That statement did not come from the outside world at all, but only from your own cold, flinty heart.

Sometimes it is hard to know which world we really lived in: we say, "that is great," when what we really meant was "I like it"; not an outside world, but an inside one. Is this a beautiful natural land, or an undeveloped commercial opportunity? Pick one. How many things do you not really know until you experience them, because they were not outside, but you were inside, of them? Then there was the story of the disciple of Christ "(whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such a one caught up to the third heaven." This one who was "(whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)" was "caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words," which cannot be revealed outward, here; (2 Corinthians 12:2-4; Paul). How was it possible to not know if an experience were happening inside or outside of your own body, mind, in a different place or here? Easy--it happens all the time.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. "you can't be educated by the good, you can only infer from the evil"
That is the point we are all at. It is our job every day to negotiate this landscape of lies.

"You have only the lies and games, crimes and persecutions, slanders and false fronts, to study and learn from; you can't be educated by the good, you can only infer from the evil."

After the recent election day and another week of repulsive bullshit, more and more people are tuning out.





"You know, if you carefully read the original post, you can end up with a completely different meaning of the statement, which may even be what was intended. That is, not "how do you distinguish what is true from what is false; how can you tell?" but actually How Do You Tell The Truth FROM The Lies, or, how can you get to truthfulness by having started from the basic material and orientation of the lies and false presentation, because, as a matter of fact, that is exactly what we all have to do all the time."

The "completely different meaning of the statement" seems quite possible. It is a beautiful and ambiguous statement, meant for reflection, not reduction. An early reply said "Source." And I thought, great, someone gets it, it IS Source!! :rofl: I didn't get til later they wanted the quote source.......

"Good is clarity of mind, which brings the ability to see the truth. Evil is blindness or ignorance, which makes the truth impossible to see. In both cases we are speaking about self-centered qualities. The person accepts responsibility for defining "the truth" as he or she sees it."

Perhaps this is intriguingly openended to me because it says "the ability to see the truth." It doesn't say the guarantee of seeing the truth, the authority of seeing the truth-- it's says "ability." Sounds like a process.

"When Jesus taught his followers that "the truth will set you free," he didn't mean a certain set of facts or dogmas but revealed truth."

"Revealed truth" -- the process of connecting with the knower within, and trusting it, can help sort the clear from the clouded.

"How was it possible to not know if an experience were happening inside or outside of your own body, mind, in a different place or here? Easy--it happens all the time."

Yes, I believe that's called "Reality." :evilgrin:

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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
23. There is nothing Bushler&Co. & the MSM can do to make me believe them.
NOTHING


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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. True dat (another gem, Swampy)
yet we are trapped in this mass delusion that this imposed reality is "acceptable."

:crazy:
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