Europe, soccer, bigotry, hatred and bananas.

[Cyrano]

This week, I read a few news stories about how black players are being treated at European soccer matches. The "N" word is being used by those who hate blacks, and by fans of other teams trying to rattle them. And many of these scum throw bananas at black players and make chimp noises.

Let me say this. Fuck the human species. I've been worn down by hatred (including my own hatred of BushCo, freepers and fundies). Since we crawled out of the caves, the thing that we do best is hate and murder each other because of color, religion, tribe, or some piece of a map called a country.

Given the bloodbath known as European history, you'd think they'd have learned something. But here they are, going to their soccer games, screaming the "N" word, and throwing bananas. After a couple of thousand years of slaughtering each other, the Europeans have evidently learned nothing more than our home-grown bigots who have only been at it for about 400 years.

Sometimes I wish I weren't a devout agnostic because something deep within me hurts and I'd like to believe it's a soul.

[ContraBass Black]

1. Can you point me to some of those stories?

I missed them.

[Cyrano]

4. I read them in the Palm Beach Post. They were front page stories.

Unfortunately, I didn't post them at the time, but I'm sure there are many pieces on google. Try "world cup soccer bigotry." That should pull up quite a few stories.

[AspenRose]

5. Start here

http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-06-08-voa38.cfm

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/trn/local_news/article/0,1891,TRN_5784_4759966,00.html

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/sports/content/sports/epaper/2006/06/07/m1a_CUP_RACISM_0607.html

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/sports/14760172.htm

http://allafrica.com/stories/200606070439.html

And Nike Europe has a fight racism campaign (which apparently experienced a backlash):

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4153/is_20050317/ai_n13244452

[ContraBass Black]

22. Beautiful.

Thanks.

[Divernan]

29. See today's Al Jazeera-Racism worries tarnish friendly World Cup

http://english.aljazeera.net

Far right panel, 3rd box down, click on,"World Cup Football". In that section, it's the third article under "Features"

[shanti]

72. real sports with bryant gumbel

had a story on this a few months ago. check it out...

[RethugAssKicker]

2. Prejudices come and go ... but the hatred/fear of the black man

seems to be endless!!

[BlooInBloo]

11. Only becuase it's not a big deal to white folks... see belowthread...

[Kellanved]

3. Way to go: nice blanket statement

There are several hundred "big" soccer matches in Europe each week (usually 12-20 clubs per league; about three professional leagues per country; several European and national cups; plus non-professional leagues and women's leagues).
A few matches per year get ruined by idiots - usually in the lower leagues and/or with a handful certain and well-known clubs playing.

I wouldn't try to use that as base for a blanket statement, but that may just be me.



On edit: here'S a report about one of the many matches you normally wouldn't read about:
http://tebepartyarmy.blogspot.com/2006/04/photo-love-story-b-05.html

[AspenRose]

6. Yeah, I guess FIFA shouldn't get all worked up over something like that.

Fans will be fans, right? :eyes:

"In November 2005, the BBC reported Marc Zoro of the Ivory Coast, while playing for Messina, was left in tears after being subjected to similar monkey mimicking from fans of Inter Milan. Like Eto'o, Zoro endured the taunts to finish the match.

"I have been playing in Italy for three years and I see this happening almost daily," the 21-year-old told British media.

The result is debilitating not only to the psyche of players but also to the reputations of teams, their fans and their leagues.

That's why FIFA President Sepp Blatter implemented anti-racism rules April 4, just in time for the World Cup.

The penalties: Clubs are deducted three league points for a first offense, six for a second and face relegation to a lower division for a third.

Also, players can be suspended, individual fans can be banned from attending games and teams can be forced to play before empty stadiums, depending on the offense.

"FIFA is doing the right thing by getting this campaign out, but how do you change people?" U.S. midfielder Eddie Pope asked. "I've heard fans say they don't mean anything by the racial taunts and that's just how they get on the other team. But that's garbage and it's unacceptable."

[Xithras]

9. FIFA will never attack the fans.

NPR did a little piece on this yesterday. While the head of the organization made the threat, it was more hyperbole than anything. The racist fans also tend to be among the most rabid, and an attack on them would set up a fan backlash that FIFA really doesn't want to deal with. As for the playing before empty stadiums thing, that will never happen. Doing that would cost a fortune, and neither FIFA nor the national leagues would be willing to eat the cost.

The information on the new rules sent to the players and national leagues made it clear that they would only be enforcing the rules on players and coaches. Racism on the field won't be tolerated, but racism off the field will continue on as always.

[AspenRose]

13. Unfortunately, you're probably right.

eom

[Karenina]

24. John Cleese "Art of Football"

A-Z it's EVERYTHING you need to know. Funnier than shit with LUMINARIES weighing in... Mia Hamm to Desmond Tutu to Franz Beckenbauer to Dave Stewart to PELE to Dennis Hopper to FUCKIN' HENRY KISSINGER. It's a MUST SEE if you want to REALLY understand.

[BlooInBloo]

7. I'm WITH ya! As a percentage, the number of lynchings in the south...

... was SMALL. It's just a few idiots for christsakes! What's all the hubbub, bub?

:rofl:
:rofl:
:rofl:

[Kellanved]

25. Sure

Nice touch to use "in the South" instead of "in the US". Shows that they didn't happen in - say - Seattle. :thumbsup:

[BlooInBloo]

28. There were lynchings in Seatlle? (shrug). Ok. But nevertheless...

Do the following thought-experiment with me:

take all the lynchings that have happened in the US.

take all of the lattitude coordinates of each lynching, and average them.

take all of the longitude coordinates of each lynching, and average them.

what part of the country do you think that (lat-avg, long-avg) will be in?

is it still JUST a "nice touch" to associate lynchings with the south, do you think? is that REALLY so unfair to the poor, misunderstood, scapegoated, they're-really-nice-people south?

[BooScout]

75. When was the last lynching you heard of in the South?

Just curious.

And while we are at it, there's no racism in the States outside of the South is there now? :sarcasm:

[Cyrano]

8. Yes, it indeed may just be you.

[smoogatz]

10. Soccer is Europe's NASCAR--

most of the fan-base is working class. The race-baiting of black players is just symptomatic of the larger issue of Europe's difficulty adjusting to a huge wave of brown/black immigration in the last generation or so. People on the lower margins of the working class are usually most negatively affected by mass immigration. Not trying to justify the monkey chants, of course, just pointing out that they're hooked into something much larger than soccer. The dullest game on the planet, IMO.

[truebrit71]

47. Soccer is the number one spectator sport on the planet.

Please do not try and associate it with the redneck bigotry of NECKCAR's, over-hyped, over-marketed, outcome pre-determined "sport"...

Thanks!

[smoogatz]

49. Right. And NASCAR is the most-attended spectator sport in the US.

Wildly popular. So what's your point, exactly?

[Kellanved]

53. Nascar carries another label

It is seen as a "worker" sport. Soccer is essentially a all-class sport, attended by professors and blue collar workers. There is a whole intellectual culture attached to it, complete with high-brow magazines and everything.

[truebrit71]

57. My point, exactly is...

...that simply because several million toothless cousin-lovers in the US like to watch brightly-coloured billboards "race" each other doesn't make it the equivalent of the world's most popular sport...Or are you suggesting that every football fan is a beer-swilling numbnut that hates "darkies"...?

[Swamp Rat]

67. LOL!

:D

[Xithras]

12. Tribalism is ingrained into the human psyche.

And it's partially genetic, so it's not something that's ever going to go away.

[Cyrano]

14. I can't refute you because I don't know the facts.

The idea that we may be stuck with -- what I consider to be -- a pox on humanity, doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fight and destroy it. It sure as hell has destroyed untold multitudes of human beings.

[RethugAssKicker]

20. When whites play in African countries... they're not taunted with

racial slurs.... My point is that its not a global problem...

Its a white problem

[BlooInBloo]

33. Good luck getting DU to acknowledge THAT!

:rofl:

They by and large don't even acknowledge the existence of racism. ("It's not a race issue, it's a class issue" is the classic form racism-denial takes)

[MountainLaurel]

36. True that.

:applause:

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. Hey, these notions were birthed in the SDS

And people wonder why the Black Power crowd decided to scuttle such cracker bullshit. Class issue, see? Nothing to do with race, see? The two can be completed separated, and it all comes down to the distribution of capital, see?

Fear of a Black Planet. Absolutely goddamn right.

[BlooInBloo]

38. SDS?

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. Students for a Democratic Society

The New Left was notoriously fond of the "it's a class issue" argument, which is how they alienated both feminists and African American activists. Of course, the African American activists had their own problems with patriarchy, etc. The splintering of the 60's left, IOW.

[KitchenWitch]

76. Racism is not just a white problem

One word: Rwanda.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. Complete nonsense

Genetic. Ridiculous.

[Cyrano]

31. alcibiades: please expand on this issue. I can't speak for everyone, but

my knowledge on this subject is non-existent.

[BlooInBloo]

34. There's nothing to know. The idea that racism is genetic is....

... dumber than Intelligent Design, and is only a rhetorical ploy intended to get white folks off the blame-hook for all of the evil associated with racism.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Exactly

There is zero evidence for genetic racism, and no identified biological mechanism for the nebulous notion of tribalism. The whole theory rests on dubious "evolutionary" assertions, and I put evolutionary in quotations only because these assertions bare almost no resemblance to the actual scientific positions on the subject, but merely siphon off vaguely associative general beliefs about what might be "evolutionarily" useful. It's straight up bunk and pseudo-science - as if seig heiling and throwing bananas at black soccer players has some inescapable basis in the body, and is not (as it rather obviously is) a matter of social concepts, historical action, and power. Like I said, nonsense.

[smoogatz]

46. I think those with essentialist leanings tend to ascribe most common human

behaviors to genetics--but only because they don't know how else to explain them, and, as you say, are looking to pseudo-science for an excuse. Racism's near universality in human cultures is almost certainly cultural in origin--it seems obvious that cultures unified against outsiders would be more competetive, in general, than those that weren't. Like so much of what's ugly in human history, it's all about competing for resources.

[HEyHEY]

15. There's idiots everywhere

How many rednecks would do the same thing here?

[texasleo]

18. they don't

our sports are majority non white.

[HEyHEY]

45. So, you're saying out of fear of violence...they hide their racism?

Sounds very harmonious down there.

[Cyrano]

19. I suspect, not many, given today's environment in this country.

Think back to what happened to Trent Lott when he praised Strum Thurmond. This kind of crap will always be with us, but I believe it has been made socially unacceptable. (Lott learned this the hard way.)

Racism -- bigotry -- diseases for which no cure has been found. But those who decide to practice it in public deserve to be shunned. We can't fine them, but we can sure as hell make them bear the scorn of their fellow humans and treat them as outcasts.

The Republican Party is not the last but is the largest stronghold of racism in America. But they've found countless code words and thinly disguised issues to disguise their agenda. Nonetheless, I believe that most Democrats and decent human beings know what they're all about.

[AngryAmish]

16. That is why we should ban soccer

[smoogatz]

17. Or arm the players.

That would at least make it interesting.

[Cyrano]

23. I know you guys aren't serious, but why don't you lay off this time?

Laugh about this today and public lynchings could be all the rage tomorrow. That may sound extreme, but who would have ever anticipated a George W. Bush administration?

The subject is just to sensitive to joke about. Please, pass on it.

[smoogatz]

26. I'm entirely serious.

Soccer is the most boring game ever invented. As for the racism thing, it's interesting that Americans are always shocked when people in other countries (especially European ones) do barbaric things. We assume, incorrectly, in this case, that Europeans are far more advanced than we are in almost every cultural/social department. Turns out--and I know this is kind of counter-intuitive--that the US is one of the only places in the world in which racism is more-or-less universally considered to be a bad thing. In most other cultures, racism is common, deeply ingrained, shockingly public, and widely considered the normal state of affairs. We've been dealing with race issues for centuries--in Europe it's a relatively new phenomenon.

[Cyrano]

27. Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

[smoogatz]

32. No prob.

I should tell you about my Chinese/American friend--very attractive young woman--who traveled pretty extensively in Scandinavia a few years ago. She was shocked--people refused to sit next to her on trains and buses, waiters ignored her, people literally crossed the street to avoid her. All 5'2", 98 pounds of her. So there you go. In a non-european context, my ex-wife is a Chinese Singaporean. When we first met she was wildly, unapologetically racist--not against blacks or anglos but against East Indians (greedy and horny) and Malaysians (lazy and dirty). She firmly believed that the Han Chinese were the master race, and pretty much everybody else was deeply inferior--and this belief was shared by many of her friends/family from S'pore and Hong Kong. She's been in the States a long time now and is much more sophisticated, but still--it amazed me. At least here in the US the racists and bigots know that overt racism and bigotry are unacceptable in public discourse. That's all I'm saying.

[Cyrano]

39. Once again, thank you for these anecdotes.

I know that racism exists everyplace on our sorry planet, but it's always interesting and infuriating to hear of its many permutations.

Your posts have hooked my curiosity (and also estended my disgust with the human species) and I will read as much about the topics you've posted as I can fit in.

Thanks again.

[smoogatz]

44. There was a long piece on the soccer thing on NPR this past weekend--

Sunday on "Weekend All Things Considered." Complete with monkey chants. Pretty devastating. Apparently Spain is the worst, which makes me sad. I love Spain.

Here's the link: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5450741

[mconvente]

40. Despite being hard to believe, you are correct.

For the most part (at least in blue states and mostly in red states too) racism is mega taboo - though it does still continue, it is for the most part not tolerated at all. Reports on ESPN point to the fact that since few black people live in Europe (compared to the US) that there never has been a mega Civil Rights movement there that gets this stuff in the mainstream. Sad that it can't be stopped before that, but that could be a factor somewhat. It sucks because I like the World Cup, even though I don't care too much for soccer. Those fans are psycho though, even before the racism - they throw firecrackers and shit on the field - it's insane. I'd NEVER go to a game in Europe - I want to live another day!

[smoogatz]

43. I've been to club matches in the UK--

my ex-brother-in-law is a huge fan. But those are small beans--like a minor-leauge baseball game. If you go to the big matches--especially the international ones--you have to be ready to deal with a LOT of drunken craziness. Kind of like Mardis Gras, but with a lot of big, mean, gap-toothed thugs instead of pretty girls showing their tits. In other words, not my idea of a good time.

[tenshi816]

60. Which "club matches"?

Depends on which division you're talking about. Premier League and First Division matches are a far cry from "minor league baseball games."

[Kellanved]

62. That's strange

The higher league and especially the international matches are where you won't meet drunken fans.

[truebrit71]

48. That is quite possibly the biggest amount of bullshit I have ever read....

..in one post....

[smoogatz]

51. Elegantly put, my friend.

Care to elaborate? Want to tell me all about the UK's seamless acceptance of all those Pakistani and Indian immigrants? Or would you rather get back to me when you've figured out how you feel about the Irish? Actually, as pointed out in the NPR piece I reference below, Britain's one of Europe's relative success stories, precisely because they've been dealing with immigrants from the Indian Subcontinent for so long. Other parts of Europe, not so much.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kellanved]

59. Sorry to say so:

Your generalization based on half-digested tidbits shows your ignorance rather beautifully.

A number of Feyenoord fans are assholes (a minority of them, mind you). Ajax fans tend not to be. Your point?

[BooScout]

77. Blasphemy!

:wow:

[malaise]

21. See this

http://www.euractiv.com/en/sports/fighting-racism-football/article-155568

[theboss]

41. This was in either the Wash Post or NY Times last week

I can't remember which.

But it is especially bad in Germany (not surprising, I guess).

[Kellanved]

50. Actually that's not true

As with racism generally, it is a problem. A huge problem.
But it is a problem not worse in Germany, than in most other countries.

In soccer, racism is usually assosciated with a number of clubs ( Real Madrid, Latio Rome, Feynoord Rotterdam, BFC Dynamo,...). Moreover, it is relatively easy for neo-Nazi groups to dominate the watchers in lower-league matches, where only a few dozen fans assemble most of the time.

It is good that after decades of doing nothing, authorities are finally starting to do something about it.

Edit:
Another thing not directly connected to soccer is racism on the street: There are towns where the streets are entirely in the hands of neo-Nazis; extremely dangerous for visitors. It is a sad fact and hard - probably impossible - to explain. Those are mostly in the eastern States, and it probably has something to do with the GDR, the brain drain to the cities, German history, idiocy, political/educational incompetence and unemployment.

[aerisgainsborough]

55. Well, the biggest fascist is Ombak, in the Brazil forums at BigSoccer

Come and take a look at him:

http://www.mikemalloy.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=36642

He is one of the biggest fascist football mods I've ever met.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. I recommend that EVERYBODY follow the link aerisgainsborough posted.

Please. Do that. It is very enlightening, in the "unintended enlightenment" fashion.

[Kellanved]

52. Ok, this thread is a nice summary of all prejudices

Reports about racism in Europe called "beautiful" :thumbsup:

Soccer fans are dangerous

Racism is new in Europe

Soccer fans are racist

A report about a third league team in Eastern Germany is a valid base for a case about general racism in soccer




Seems to me that the posters (hah - see: a blanket statement)
-know nothing about Europe, its countries and the actual conditions
-think to know a lot based on reports about - terrible - incidents
-went never to a soccer match. Especially not in the past 15 years
-think to know a lot about matches, based on 20 year old footage
-...


Soccer is about as racist as the people. Polls suggest that up to 20% of the people hold racist and extreme right persuasions. Of course it is a problem, but not one of soccer specifically. Soccer is a game, racism is real.
Most soccer fans are decent people, because most people are decent. Assholes are assholes. Always and everywhere.


G'night. :hi:

[marmar]

56. Well said...

I'm an African American who's traveled Europe pretty extensively the past half-decade (UK, France, Germany, Denmark, Netherlands, Spain, Belgium and Italy - admittedly always in the big cities), and except for a curious stare in Granada and a woman who moved an extra seat over from me on a tram in Cologne, I've never had any kind of problem and made lots of friends, real ones.

[Nia Zuri]

70. Not bassed on 20 year old footage...it is happening now

[Kellanved]

71. what is happening now?

The World Cup is happening now, and watching it, you'll note the absence of
-hooligans
-neo-nazis
in the ranks. Unlike in 20 year old footage.

[SoCalDem]

54. I just hope they behave themselves.. My son is there to see the games

I'll be pissed as hell if he got hurt in a soccer melee...He's been looking forward to World Cup for 4 years, and I hope he has a great time.. I cannot understand why so-called fans of the game can be so idiotic.. It's about the GAME.....

Sometimes i really wonder if humans have even "evolved".. Some of the population seems hopelessly "behind"..

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[StellaBlue]

63. I'd also like to believe these bigots and idiots are going to hell.

But, alas, I don't believe, either.

The only thing I believe in anymore is beer.

[porphyrian]

64. I vote bananas!

Oh, sorry, I posted before reading all of yours.

[sweetheart]

65. The first goal against germany today was brilliant

The entire german defense got caught out and, like a penalty shoot,
straight in... oh well, they lost.

World cup football is good crack. don't know about any of that stuff,
must be somewhere else.

[tocqueville]

66. This has happened in some Spanish/Italian matches mostly

but you cannot say it's a general feature

clubs that couldn't control their supporters have been fined

Here is the French World Cup team :



notice that only the goalie and the nr 19 are white.

Zidane nr 10 is of North african origin...


no bananas here

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

68. Well, at least one wish of yours is granted!

You aren't a devout agnostic because there's no such thing. Rejoice!

[HEyHEY]

73. What year did Black people finally get there rights in the US?

This is directed more at the people in this thread than at Cyrano. But, before you start pointing the dirty end of the stick at Europe, clean your own backyard.

Here's a good one..
http://www.wisecounty.com/themuse/rocker.htm
Shit, at least in Europe, it's just the fans.

[abester]

74. Hooooooooold on mister

I believe you made a sweeping generalisation regarding 'us' Europeans? Perhaps I should remind you, that for the better part of that history, your ancestors were part of those 'atrocities' as well.

As do you, I also deeply despise rascism and bigotry. We are all in this together, but sweeping one entire group of 500 million people under the rug isn't helpful.

You think Europe is especially violent towards blacks? Hmmm

[Dutch]

78. Yet more generalised anti-European ranting on DU.

It's hardly worth even arguing at this point...it/s just depressing that when a small minority of scum indulge in racist activity at football matches, some DUers have to droolingly seize on this racism as a chance to disgorge bigoted smears against the people of an entire fucking continent. As well, at least the arseholes at the football matches don't try and wrap their prejudice up in sanctimony.

[Swamp Rat]

79. Helaba!

:hi: Spreekt u het Nederlands? Ik niet, zodat gebruik ik een woordenboek, en mijn slecht Duits. :D

Ik houd niet ook niet van het. Ik leefde in Europa, zodat ik weet de stereotype niet waar is. Het racisme is slechter in de USA! x(

[wickerwoman]

80. This has been going around for ages.

I know a percentage of hooligans who support England's national team have ties to white supremicist groups. But it's certainly not the majority of the fans and mostly they just support soccer as an excuse to hit people on the weekend with a certain amount of immunity.

There's a great essay by James Baldwin called the "Stranger in the Village" where he talks about what it was like being the only black man in a tiny village in Switzerland. He basically comes to the conclusion that for all the problems in America at least we have *begun* to confront the issue of racism. If you live in many places in Europe you probably almost never see an actual black person. The mostly openly, viciously racist people I've ever met lived in Ireland where they could go decades without ever seeing a real live person of color.

So yes, European history has been a bloodbath, but in the day to day life of many Europeans, the race issue just never comes up. It's like when I grew up in suburbia and then moved to New Jersey. I went from having 1 black classmate in my entire high school to being the only white girl on the bus. And I said stupid shit out of ignorance because race had just never been called to my attention before.

Anyway, long story short, I think they're assholes, but I think it's good in the long run that Europeans are beginning to confront the ugliness that's out there. I think Americans tend to think Europeans are more cultured, more experienced, more refined at dealing with *everything* than we are and we're shocked to find that occasionally we can be ahead of the curve.

[mogster]

81. Good point, and let's not forget the Jews ...

*cough* History does not leave a kind impression of Europeans, I guess.

A bit generalizing, your post, but nevertheless. Fascism has found it's new outlet in football fans, and there are episodes that does not match any kind of 'fair play'.

That said, a lot has been done during the last 20 years to combat hooliganism and racist behaviour in sports. Highlighting the problem helps, and the picture is not purely black and white (no pun intended).
Anti-racism has a strong support in Europe, although it struggles now under the NWO paradigm.