Hey Gay People - Do You Want To Know Why Transgender People Are Pissed??

[Lib Grrrrl]

It's because we are constantly being LEFT BEHIND!
We are constantly asked to sit at the back of the civil rights bus!

ENDA is still non-transgender-inclusive, and HRC refuses to introduce any transgender-inclusive ENDA. I have been told that this move is "to make the legislation more palatable to conservative (Republican) legislators."
MORE PALATABLE?!!? WTF does that mean??

Well, I'll tell you how it sounds to a transgendered person, shall I?
Gay Activist from HRC: "Uh, Mr. Legislator...it'll be a little easier for you to vote on this bill now, because we will still let you discriminate against, and hate on SOME people...just so long as it ISN'T US GAYS AND LESBIANS AND BISEXUALS!!"

What complete, utter fucking hypocrisy!! You'll advance your cause, and your civil rights, on the backs of...and at the expense of...another group's civil rights?

Well, son of a bitch...I don't remember MLK Jr advocating for right "only for light-skinned black people!!"

And, goddamnit, transgender people are far more vulnerable, and thus, far more in need of protections...than are gay people!!

Here's why:

1. No one keeps a record of it if you are gay.
2. You CAN HIDE your orientation in the pre-employment process, and even at work. Not that you should have to, BUT YOU CAN!!

WE TRANSGENDER PEOPLE CANNOT HIDE!!

Even if we were somehow blessed with the perfect genes, voice, body, everything...if we look like and sound like Cindy Crawford...we are STILL compelled, on most job applications, to supply all former names we were known as...for the purposes of criminal background checks. There are previous employers, there are credit checks, Social Security Number checks...and it DOES NOT take a fucking rocket scientist to figure out what is going on when you discover Jane Doe's Social Secuirty number was once assigned to Dick Doe!! No, we do NOT get to change our Social Security Numbers...often our credit reports give us away...we are NOT ALLOWED to bury our past! and that is assuming we weren't already COMPELLED to divulge former names we had worked under, for the purposes of background checks, as well as checks on previous employment!

WE DON'T FUCKING GET TO HIDE, LIKE YOU CAN!!

And yet, it's always gay first gay first gay first...let the trannies be the sacrificial lamb on the altar of GAY RIGHTS...

NOW DO YOU GET IT? DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY WE ARE FUCKING PISSED!?!?

BTW, kudo's to Washington State that just passed a TRANSGENDER-INCLUSIVE anti-discrimination law! It CAN BE DONE!! Civil rights CAN be passed FOR EVERYONE...WASHINGTON STATE JUST PROVED IT!

We are sick and tired of being bargaining chips for the gay community, and getting stabbed in the back in the end! While we support equality for gay people...we do not support it AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR OWN RIGHTS!! We would never advance the notion that we ought to get them and gay people not get them....but....boy, howdy, plenty of gay folk sure are willing to sell us transpeople right down the goddamned river, in exchange for their rights!!

"Yeah, see, Mr. Conservative Legislator...we'll still let you hate on, and discriminate against SOME PEOPLE...just not OUR people!!"

The motherfucking height of hypocrisy!!

****end rant, climbing down off soapbox now****
Fuck, it hurts to stand on a fucking soapbox in high heels!!

[Nikki Stone 1]

1. Interesting post

Thanks.

[Solo_in_MD]

31. The bad news is that TGs have indeed been thrown to the wolves

at times by Gay political leadership. The comment being that they would come back and fix it once gay rights were ensured. Most TGs don't buy it, and I can see why.

The good news is that the vast majority of gays see TGs as fellow travellers and treat them well on a personal level.

[Lib Grrrrl]

38. Yes

The good news is that the vast majority of gays see TGs as fellow travellers and treat them well on a personal level.

True. For rank-and-file GLB's. The problem is...the ones who MATTER...the ones who make policy, set agenda, etc...THEY are the ones who want to sell us TG's out! and not enough of the rank-and-file GLB's raise enough of an outcry against it...and why should they?? After all, THEY are still getting THEIR rights!!

Time and again, we TG's were told by gay leadership...it's like the colonial times...one family member went ahead on to the New World...and then they sent to boat back for the rest of the family. The problem is...gay leadership acted in a dishonorable way far too many times for us to believe they would ever send the boat back! We didn't believe it then, and we don't believe it now, either.

As far as we are concerned, any rights legislation that passes, and does not include T...is forever dead...and we will never have rights.

A beautiful example of this is my former home of Austin, Texas. Since 1975, it has been illegal there to discriminate based on sexual orientation. Would you like to know how long it's been illegal to discriminate based on gender identity in Austin? I'll tell you...since 2004! And even then, only because I lit enough fires under enough people's asses to make it happen! And even then, it took TWENTY-NINE FUCKING YEARS for them to "send the boat back," as it were...in austin. TWENTY-NINE FUCKING YEARS!!

[Nikki Stone 1]

55. Should transgendereds starts a movement of their own?

It seems like there needs to be some group focusing on TG issues.

[Lib Grrrrl]

57. We Don't Have The Numbers/Political Clout

Besides, most Americans don't even know the difference between gay and transgender.
There have been some groups that focussed on TG rights, NTAC is one I was a part of, it collapsed due to a lack of financing. NTCE is another. On state levels there's the "It's Time!" Organizations, such as "It's Time! Illinois" which was headed by a good friend of mine. I, myself, had started "It's Time! Kentucky" when I lived there. It since merged with The Fairness Campaign, when the statewide gay-rights organization got on-board with inclusion.

Previously, there was GenderPAC, they are apparently still around, but don't seem to be doing much these days.

As another good friend of mine, and also an activist once observed...trying to organize TG folks is like trying to herd cats....you get nowhere and just end up pissing off the cats.

[Cronus Protagonist]

64. True. Trannys are the new gays.

You heard it here first.

:evilgrin:


Educate A Freeper - Flaunt Your Opinions!
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Vanje]

2. That blows!

Ill kick it with my big dyky high top retro basketball sneakers

[orleans]

27. ("retro" basketball sneakers? sounds scary....and groovy!) n/t

[Vanje]

37. Im the grooviest .........

.......post-menopausal seep-herding lesbian in Owyhee County , Idaho

[Behind the Aegis]

3. Some thoughts...

When it comes to transgender issues there tends to be much confusion and little knowledge, even from the GLB community, and more so from the non-GLB community. However, the real issue for me is that transgender is not a sexual orientation. I feel this is why they may often be left out of discussions and legislation, because, in the technical sense, transgendered people should already be protected by sex discrimination laws. I do not oppose (I actively support) inclusion of transgendered issues by the GLB community because the discrimination and issues are often similar, if not the same, in some cases.

The transgendered people who really get the short end of the stick are the ones in the process of changing to the correct sex. Because it is a long procedure, there is a phase where the discrimination is much worse, at least this is what I have observed with friends going through the process. The "before" and "after," they seem not to encounter as many problems as with the "during" transition.

I can understand your frustration and anger, but, and I have to remind myself of this on other issues I am passionate about, "you attract more flies with honey, rather than vinegar."

[Lib Grrrrl]

8. Actually, Thanks To Economic Conditions Then Versus Now...

I'm having a harder time AFTER than I duid DURING.

See, clinton was Prez in the DURING part, for me...and there were so many jobs available, people COULDN'T discriminate much.

Now they can, and are.

And as to "we should be covered by sex-discrimination laws" Well, guess what? We aren't!

In fact, once I was told, after filing a sexual harrassment case...that I was neither a man nor a woman, and so, therefore, I could not be harrassed...and the laws didn't apply to me anyway, since I was NEITHER!

Yet, if I'd wanted to marry a man, they'd have insisted I was a man...so as to stop me from marrying a man....and when it came to pay for a job, they wanted to consider me a woman, so that they could pay me less.

They always figure out how to hand us the shit end of the stick, in every situation, because there is not any uniform way to identify us as male or female, or however else they may wish to legally identify us.

[Behind the Aegis]

11. Interesting information.

I am sorry to hear about your sexual harassment case. That makes no sense. The one friend I had who sued (he is FTM), won his case. The others (all MTF) never had too many problems after the transition, there was always a few comments and such, but most had few problems. As I said, I have to go by their experience, since I do not share that experience.

Your last statement is why many in the GLB community are not always inclusive of T issues. One, they don't understand many of the issues faced, and two, they see it as a "sex" issue, not a "sexual orientation" issue. Personally, I say the more the merrier, strength in numbers, and all that.

[Lib Grrrrl]

14. I Disagree With Your Assertion

I do NOT think they see it as a "sex" issue...they see it as an opportunity to USE us for their own ends, and then toss us overboard.

they will take what they can get from us, and then stab us in the back. such has been HRC's policy since 1994, regardless of what they SAY...publicly.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. I was talking of the community as a whole...

...not a specific organization. Basically, you feel similarly to those of us who feel like that happens with certain Democratic groups.

I cannot speak to your experiences. My experiences have been very different with transgendered people. They always felt included in the groups I was apart of and didn't feel like they were a pawn for us to discard to make ourselves look more palatable.

Why such vitriol for the gay community, as a whole? It appears, to me, the problem is the HRC, and perhaps some other political groups.

[Lib Grrrrl]

18. More Or Less

Yes...the problem IS HRC...and a few other political groups, and a few so-called "gay leaders" that I consider assholes...among them Jim Four-Rat...and, the editors of Bay Windows.

they have left me, and a lot of other transgender people...with a very pissed-off attitude towards the gay community, for their BLATANT non-acceptance of us...their BLATANT usage and subsequent discarding of us...etc. It's bitter, the history goes way back, and it's too detailed, and too late right now, but if you want, I can go into more detail tomorrow.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. I understand it is late...

...please feel free to either PM or post to this message. I feel it would be better to post to this message because them more people will understand; however, if it is something overly personal, and you feel like sharing, you can PM me.

To be quite honest, I have abandoned most gay groups because of all the back-biting, so I am not overly familiar with what is currently happening with those groups.

[Lib Grrrrl]

39. Well, Let Me Bring You Up To Speed

Bay Windows is a gay newspaper out of Boston. When Rita Hester was murdered, bay windows reported on it, and INSISTED on referring to Rita in the male gender, with male pronouns...AND THEY FUCKING KNEW BETTER!! They couldn't even show respect to Rita after she'd been MURDERED!! http://www.rememberingourdead.org

Look on the list of Rita Hester to learn more details about her life and her death.

there are over 350 names on that list...including a few I knew personally! How many of you can say that a close friend...someone you considered a family member, was murdered? I can! Terrianne summers, also on the list, was murdered in Jacksonville, Florida. To date, no suspect...and the Jax Police don't give a shit, either.

Jim Four-Rat, as I call him....or, in actuality, I believe his real name is Jim Forrat...he stood up at NYC's Pride event one year, and all but denied TG's even existed, claiming all of us were poor, victimized gay men, who felt the need to mutilate our bodies in order to be accepted, or because we couldn't accept the "fact" that, in actuality, we were simply gay men in denial! HE FUCKING SAID THAT!! He actually said, and I am paraphrasing the quote, "I dream of the day when people will no longer feel the need to mutilate their bodies, in order to gain acceptance, when these 'transgender' people will finally be able to just be the gay men that they are. It's sad that societal pressures force them into mutilating their bodies to gain acceptance." WHAT A FUCKING CROCK!!

As to HRC...well, that's a battle that has been ongoing since 1994, since the days of Elizabeth Birch...and I don't see any REAL evidence of it changing, either. Sure, they talk the talk now...but I'll believe when they WALK THE WALK!!

[REP]

4. Educate Me

I am asking out of true ignorance: isn't TG a matter of gender identification and correcting a birth defect rather than sexuality? Is TG about correcting anatomy that does not correspond with the gender the person identifies more than sexual attraction? Once a TG person is able to live as the correct gender, aren't many TG people "straight"?

If I am correct, partly correct, or flat-out wrong but my incorrect thoughts are shared by others, this could why TG is not seen as a "gay" issue.

[Lib Grrrrl]

9. Yes And No

Yes, you are right about what transgender IS...but you are wrong about why it is not seen as a "gay" issue. Because, you see...gays have no problem using us as bargaining chips in order to get rights for themselves.

HRC has demonstrated, time and again, it's willingness to use use as the sacrificial lamb on the altar to gay rights.

they use us when they need us, and then toss us overboard.

[REP]

15. I Should Have Added

I was asking as an outsider to both groups (GBL and TG). Again, I'm asking out of a true lack of knowledge, so be gentle: should TG be part of the GBL issue? To me, they seem very different though both groups face some overlapping problems (you mentioned marriage). Is the TG community so small they have affiliated with the GBL movement for the strength in numbers, or for other reasons?

[Lib Grrrrl]

21. See My Reply #19 (Nail. Head. Direct Hit!)

I think that will clear up why I believe the TG should be part of the GBL issue.

Because most Americans do not differentiate, and WE get discriminated against on the same basis (generally speaking, it is the "ick factor" as I call it...)

[BR_Parkway]

34. Just thought I'd say, the "gay" leadership doesn't represent me either

and while I hate that you are having to put up with the things that you do, this continual railing against gays throwing you under the bus is kind of annoying and less likely to encourage me to see what I can do to support you.

I DO have a problem using you as a bargaining chip, and I DO resent being thrown under the bus with some group that I've dropped my membership in because I didn't feel like they represented me or anyone else I knew. So please, don't keep up this vein of accusing all potential allies because you dislike one or more groups. It's as discriminatory as saying "all gays..." or "all lesbians..." or any other group.

[Lib Grrrrl]

40. Well, Then

From your words, I am going to assume you are NOT transgender...that you are a gay man, who formerly belonged to HRC.
If I'm wrong, the whole point of what I'm about to say is gonna sound a bit stupid. But, as best I can tell, from your words...I think my initial assessment is correct.

You say YOU resent being "thrown under the bus" with a group you have dropped membership in...well...that group has REPEATEDLY thrown US under the bus!! Not just once, but over and over and over and over again!!

Now, tell me, do you think my anger at that is legitimate? I think you can understand it?

Then, what the hell am I supposed to do to gain attention about our plight, other than yell and scream and get pissed? Am I supposed to smile sweetly and shut up every time we get thrown under the bus??

YOU don't fucking like getting thrown under the bus, why the hell should I smile when I get thrown under the bus?

So...that said...what the hell do you suggest I do to gain attention, and eventually make it so that we transgender folks DON'T get thrown under the bus?

Even YOU acknowledge that it DOES HAPPEN!! so where do we go from here? don't just bitch about me bitching all the time, because, role reversed, YOU would bitch all the time too! If you have a better idea on how to change the situation, thenm, by all means, let's hear it, okay?

[BR_Parkway]

41. Yes, gay man, former member who dropped HRC when I realized they

were more interested in access and invitations to the 'right' parties and fundraisers than they were in doing anything about the issues that mattered in my life. I can't point to any thing that they've done for me either, so we're on the same side of that issue.

As to where to go from here - yes, you should be loud, you should be visible in demanding more attention to the issues that specifically go to transgender beyond what gays and lesbians need. I NEVER said you shouldn't.

All I said was that when you yell that all gays are throwing you under the bus to further their own agenda, then you don't build support for your cause. When you do that, you lump me in with the Repugs who are throwing you under the bus to further their own cause, or HRC or any of these other national organizations that seem more about fundraising than activism.

Don't treat me like your enemy, I'm not. If you can't manage to make that distinction, then you will only lose allies.

[Lib Grrrrl]

49. Then Shout WITH Me!!!

I'll take all the allies I can get!!

[AlienGirl]

12. Gender identity and sexual orientation are orthogonal

There are more gay and bi people in the transgendered population than in the cisgendered population, though.

Ideally, IMO, transgender issues ought to be part of disability-rights issues; but since so many of the same bigots have the same bigotry about LBG people as about T people, there is some sense in trans issues being included in gay rights issues.

Tucker

[ConsAreLiars]

5. Your info may be outdated. According to this they quickly changed

from supporting a 2004 bill that omitted the T in LGBT to refusing to support any bill that excluded T.

From: http://intraa.tgcrossroads.org/connections/story/?iid=39&aid=955
----------------------------------------------------------------------
On August 7, 2004, the Human Rights Campaign (HRC), the nation's largest LGBT human rights organization, adopted a policy to only support federal anti-discrimination legislation that is trans-inclusive.

At HRC's regular Board of Directors meeting, a delegation of transgender activists including National Center for Transgender Equality (NCTE) Board members Donna Cartwright and Diego Sanchez as well as NCTE Executive Director, Mara Keisling, met with the HRC board to discuss federal legislation.

Keisling noted, "This is an historic day for the transgender movement. The LGBT community's most connected organization in Congress has finally embraced transgender rights equally with those of lesbian, gay and bisexual rights. We are confident that Congress will hear this message."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, it may be that my info is outdated, and HRC has since again reversed their position, but as best I can tell from a quick Google they have corrected that "compromised" support for ENDA (the logic of the original position was probably the 'usual half-loaf is better than none' reasoning).

I agree completely that the position you describe was a betrayal, but it seems they also have understood that and corrected their position. You might want to check your info, since it seems like it might have been a polemic from that short period when they made that particular error.

[Lib Grrrrl]

10. I'll Check, But...

I'll believe anything coming out of HRC when I SEE THEM WALK WHAT THEY TALK!

As to Mara Keislling...I'll withhold comment. Let's just say her and I don't exactly get along too vary well.

Yes, we do know each other. And the history goes back long, far, and bitter.

[ConsAreLiars]

26. Sometimes differences "within the family" seem larger than they are.

One thing I've learned is to try, at least, to respect those who who fight, however imperfectly (like me) to make things better. One of my kids (then L, now T) waged a hard and bitter (and successful) fight against Andrea Dworkin when A.D. tried to exclude T from participation in the first pride day event in a major city. My (then) daughter also succeeded in bringing the black and white GBLT communities together for the first time. The lesson, of course, is "strength through unity," and that bringing in allies is more effective than exclusivity.

[BanzaiBonnie]

6. Hey Lib Grrrrl, right on!

Your rant is legitimate and it's okay. I have both friends and acquaintances who are either MTF and FTM.

I met a FTM from France who visited Portland, Oregon a couple of months ago. A friend was hosting a gathering for this photographer who was keeping track of his own and the transformation of other transgender people. Very raw and powerful photos. Beautiful and awesome in their own right.

He said it was terrible in France. There was no place that would accept or welcome him as a FTM. You would think in France... but no.

It can be a cold lonely world when you feel so cut out of society. I am pleased to live in Washington state but even when discrimination is illegal there is still just the every day crap to deal with.

[shugah]

7. you're going to have to define 'transgender' please

can you please let us know what the 'T' in GLBT means?

you refer to "trannies." what does that mean, exactly?

please be open to answering some questions, even tho you are angry.

[Lib Grrrrl]

13. The T

is for transgender. Transgender is an umbrella term covering people who, in some way, identify their gender as not being congruent with their physical anatomy.

This term can and does include - crossdressers, transsexuals (pre-op, post-op, and non-op), intersexed people, drag kings/queens, and others whose behavior/dress/appearance does not match what one might ordinarily and traditionally assign to that person's apparent birth gender. However, not everyone in all those groups self-identifies as transgender...and we respect that - you are only transgender if you self-identify as such.

Transsexual, on the other hand, is more specific...referring to people who live, or desire to live, in a gender role opposite their anatomical birth sex. There are pre-op's...those who aspire to surgery who have not yet achieved it...post-op's, like me, who've had the surgery...and non-op's, who have no desire for surgery, just a desire to live as a member of the gender opposite their birth anatomical sex.

Intersexed people, also called hermaphrodites (though intersexed is the preferred terminology) are those born with both, or neither...or ambiguous genitalia...sometimes, even with the external organs of one, and the internal organs of the other. Also, there are some genetic conditions which produce a technically intersexed person, though it is not often visible to the eye at birth. Examples are Kleinfelter syndrome and Turner Syndrome. Kleinfelter produces a male-appearing child with both sex chromosomes (a normal genetic male is 46XY, a Kleinfelter is 47XXY) Turner Syndrome produces a female-appearing child with neither sex chromosome (a genetic female is 46XX, a Turner is 45XO)

Then, too, some butch lesbians could be consider transgender by their manner of dress and behavior, but only if they self-identify that way...and some do. similarly some very effeminate men may fall into this category.

Transgender, then, is a very broad category of people, whereas transsexual is a specific cross-section of the entire transgender spectrum.

Does this help?

[shugah]

17. thank you for your frank and honest answer

i appreciate your answer.

i do think that the push for civil rights for "gays" does extend to you and other "T's". "gay" is the word we have agreed upon (right and left) to define granting civil rights to all american citizens. while "gay" may mean men only to those who pay attention to the so-called defining words, GLBT does cover the wide spectrum. i think that if the general populace finds a way to embrace gay people, then transgendered people will also find acceptance.

that's what i think, anyway. you make distinctions between gay and transgender - i think most of the american population does not. ultimately i think that equality for gay people will equal equality for transgendered people.

[Lib Grrrrl]

19. Nail. Head. Direct Hit!!

you make distinctions between gay and transgender - i think most of the american population does not.
This is WHY transgender people GET discriminated against!!

[PatGund]

29. (chuckle) Really?

"Intersexed people, also called hermaphrodites (though intersexed is the preferred terminology) are those born with both, or neither...or ambiguous genitalia...sometimes, even with the external organs of one, and the internal organs of the other. Also, there are some genetic conditions which produce a technically intersexed person, though it is not often visible to the eye at birth. Examples are Kleinfelter syndrome and Turner Syndrome. Kleinfelter produces a male-appearing child with both sex chromosomes (a normal genetic male is 46XY, a Kleinfelter is 47XXY) Turner Syndrome produces a female-appearing child with neither sex chromosome (a genetic female is 46XX, a Turner is 45XO)"

Didn't know those of us with Kleinfelters were now in the transgender umbrela. How interesting.

One note though, it's often harder to detect than one may think. Many Kleinfelters or Turners are actually moasics, where the extra or missing chomosome does not have complete expression or appearence thoughout the body. (Example: Calico cats are moasics.)

I'm a kleinfelters moasic, 80XY/20XXY. I'm also fertile, which happens more with moasics than non, curiously enough. They only found out with me in my 20's when I had a karyotype done as part of a genetics class.

[Lib Grrrrl]

42. Yes, Really!!

If you self-identify as transgender...based on your ambiguous sex, because of your Kleinfelter chromosomal pattern...yes, transgender does fit. BUT ONLY IF YOU SELF-IDENTIFY AS TRANSGENDER!!

Did you not read all my words. I said the following groups CAN be considered as falling under the transgender umbrella, HOWEVER, one is transgender ONLY if they self-identify as such! Many intersex people also do not identify as transgender. Some do. Those who do...are accepted as being transgender.

In your case, being a mosiac Kleinfelter, which I have heard of before...only some of your cells, and not all of them, conform to the Kleinfelter pattern. As such, being as you have some cells that have both sex chromosomes, and some that do not...it is possible you have developed some female secondary sex characteristics. Or failed to develop some male ones. As such...this could cause you to face the same sort of discrimination in the workforce as transgender people do...because then you would not appear to fit into either of the traditional gender roles.

Thus it is we include those with Kleinfelter Syndrome among the intersexed...because, truly, you are intersexed (in a way not always visible) and thus, you can fit under the TG umbrella...but, again, ONLY IF YOU SELF-IDENTIFY AS TG.

Does that clear up what I said? If you self-identify as TG, I will accept you thus. If, on the other hand, you, personally, do not choose to self-identify as TG...then I will not consider you so. But if you had an identical twin who DID identify TG, I would accept your twin as TG and you as not TG.

Understand now?

BTW - as a way of explaing what the above poster just said...because it can be confusing to those who might not understand this terminology, or had never even heard of Kleifelter, or Turner syndromes....when he says he is 80XY/20XXY, what he is saying is that 80 percent of his cells conform to the normal male genetic chromosome pattern of 46XY, and 20 percent of his cells conform to the Kleinfelter pattern of 47XXY. And, yes, I knew that about Calico cats.

Incidentally, another form of chromosomal anomaly, known as Duan syndrome, produces a male-appearing child, the chromosomal makeup of a Duan is 47XXYY. They have TWO male and one female sex chromosome! What this seems to produce is a male child with a very high propensity towards extreme violence. In fact, you would find, I wager, that among the perpetrators of extremely violent crime, at least 30 to 40 percent of them have Duan Syndrome, and do not even know it! Literally, these individuals were born to be what they are!

[PatGund]

52. Some differences....

higher than normal voice, pelvic arch is wider than is the norm with most men, wrist design is different, (many people don't notice that male and female wrists bend a bit differently), slightly higher than normal body fat count, lower than normal iron count, no "adams apple" to speak of.

I can't say that I identify completely one way or another as TG really. I'm me. There's some "male" aspects to my personality, and some "female" aspects, but to me that's the norm, and I can't speak for how other people see themselves.

Still, interesting to think about. Thanks!

[Lib Grrrrl]

58. Well, There You Go, Then

As I pointed out, you may...and in fact do...have some characteristics more commonly associated with the female gender...the higher voice, lack of Adam's apple...incidentally, I don't have much of one, either.

But, as you do not self-identify as transgender...the term does not cover you. But it could cover someone just like you...if they self-identified as such.

You will admit that, if some of these aspects of your deviation from the male norm were more noticeable, or more pronounced, you, too, may well suffer from discrimination as a result. And in your case, it's totally an immutable condition of birth.

[roguevalley]

20. I'm probably using a poor analogy and I apologize if I am but from

the outside, this reminds me of the distaff among African-Americans between lighter and darker skin. both feel the pain and hassle, but some get even less respect than others within the group being hassled.

[Lib Grrrrl]

22. Not At All A Poor Analogy

You will note I used it, myself, in my original posting!!

[roguevalley]

25. oops. sorry. I don't know what it means to be a subset of a group

but I have compassion for all. If this were a good world, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Peace.

[Swamp Rat]

23. kick and recommended!!!

EVERYONE deserves the same rights and privileges in the USA - EVERYONE!

What do you think of my idea Lib Grrrrl?:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1367928

[Lib Grrrrl]

43. I Agree 150 Percent - EVERYONE should Have the Same Rights & Privileges!!

and, yes, to the poster above the one I'm replying to...yes, if this were a decent world...we wouldn't be having this conversation...you're quite correct, also.

[Maraya1969]

28. People need to be educated. I did not understand transgendered

or gender dysphoria until I made some friends and read real some interesting things. First off I read that there are all sorts of combinations of x's and Y's and what really got me was this:

A woman sent me to her personal web page where she told her story. When she was very young she heard her father said, "we have got to do something about that boy acting so feminine and like a like a little girL"

What went through her head was "I wonder which of my brothers he is talking about?"

I finally understood that she was a GIRL who was born into a boy's body. She believed she was a girl because she WAS a girl. It was like a birth defect.

I personally think the transgendered population should split with the gay population in this regard because it is so much easier to prove the genetic associations with gender dysphoria. (speaking of birth defects my dyslexia really comes out when I get up in the middle of the night so some of my words do not match even thought I use spell checker - please bear with me)

The different sexual codes can be explained to the general public and the fact that many children are assigned a gender at birth because of ill formed or cases with both genders on the baby.

The big fight with gay people (and I am a bi-sexual who considers herself strange even in the bi-sexual world) is the genetic issue. Transgendered people have it easier in that regard even if the XX's And YY's are consistent with the body genitalia. There is so much information about this subject and if you educate people I think they will be more understanding. If "Reader's Digest" did an article about it, it would change the US.

That being said I am very sorry for your pain and what you have to go through in this life. Maybe you are here to teach us all a lesson.

Peace

[undergroundpanther]

33. When I was in utero

My mom took male hormones to dry up her breasts from nursing my sister..It occured in the first weeks,until she found out she was pregnant..

And I came out in the wrong body.
Anyways I have streaked eyes like some mosaics have,I haven't been tested tho.

[Lib Grrrrl]

45. Similarly

I, too, have many characteristics of the mosaic. Likewise, I have never been tested for it, because genetic testing is exceedingly expensive.

[Lib Grrrrl]

44. Won't Work

I don't care how sound the science is...people who want to discriminate can and will do so...and they will bring in their own scientist, who will tell them what they want to hear...that there is no genetic basis for TG-ism...that it is a choice we make...etc.

Because these people WANT to discriminate, they will find a way to keep doing so...and they have their share of willing sock-puppet scientists who will draw the conclusions they want to hear. And those people will not question that scientist's methodology, either. Because he produced the desired conclusion.

You do not, I'm afraid, completely understand the way these people's minds work.

[undergroundpanther]

68. The weight debates

Illustrate this perfectly people think what they wanna think and nothing will convince them otherwise if being a bigot is what they want to be.

[undergroundpanther]

30. Who threw the shoe

At stonewall that started the gay liberation movement.. You know the shoe heard round the world??.. A TRANSWOMAN.

Dammit.

[Lib Grrrrl]

46. Sylvia Rivera, By Name!

I know my history!

I wasn't born until 2 years after Stonewall, but I know my history!

[Skittles]

32. YOU WANT I SHOULD KICK SOME ASS, LIB GRRRRRRRRRRRRL?

GAWD I HATE HYPOCRISY IN ANY FASHION

[NuttyFluffers]

35. HRC actually has lots of complaints even from gay circles...

lately there's a lot of beef with their current leadership, apparently. in fact, you hear how many are not renewing their donations because of this new entrenching style that's being used. apparently there's been quite a bit of "experienced consultants and lobbyists" going around in that group that remind me a fair bit about how other groups have been co-opted in power circles.

i would always be wary of "experienced consultants and lobbyists" because the pattern of late is that they seem to be RW moles -- or, at least the results of their "efforts" have been quite ineffectual, RW-lite, and deflationary to real movements. i'd take firebrand passion over calcified "experience" we're getting of late in the political circles... my uh-oh senses tingle whenever i hear these "good org gone flaccid" stories, especially when there's been a change in the guard for more "entrenched and experienced advisors."

[LynneSin]

53. Someone once described the HRC as the DLC for the GLBT community

is that true?

[donco6]

66. I don't trust the HRC.

I think the other post is correct - HRC = DLC of gays.

[theHandpuppet]

36. The HRC has been assimilated, Lib Grrrrl

They're too busy doing things such as using donated monies to co-sponsor the national convention of the Log Cabin Republicans and transforming themselves into a the GLBT version of the of the DLC to worry about the concerns of the transgendered community. Don't think you are the only one who has noticed -- here's one lesbian who HAS noticed and has posted about it on the GLBT forum. I'm having a harder and harder time identifying with gay rights groups who spend more and more of their time and monies organizing galas and celebrity dinners and sucking up to Republicans.

So don't think there isn't support out there from this community of individuals because there is -- it just can be hard to find when it comes to the big-name rights organizations and why I've soured on them. That's a damned shame for us all.

[Lib Grrrrl]

48. Borg?

Yeah...well, I still think NGLTF is a good organization.

[meisje]

47. Oy

[tomreedtoon]

50. "Everyone's a little bit racist."

One of the great songs from "Avenue Q."

And not to take anything away from gays or anyone else, but whenever I see movies, TV shows, books or anything else that present gay characters as shining examples of humanity, I want to puke.

Gay people are like any other kind of people. They are good or bad as individuals. As a class of people they are pretty much equivalent to any other selected class of people, and can contain as a group certain common negative factors. Like, in this case, prejudice against transgendered people.

I'm certain that not all gays are prejudiced against transgendered people. But while I'm not up on sexual politics (or sex of any kind, for that matter) I have heard about this prejudice being enforced at gay bars and hotels. I'm glad someone bothered to step up and call the gay community on their own set of blinders.

[Lib Grrrrl]

61. Yes...And They Are, In Some Cases, Very Clever In How They Do It

One gay bar I knew of, in Austin, Texas...required their patrons to match the presentation on their driver's license. Basically, their way of saying, "we don't want none of you queens here!" Now, in my case, being transsexual, I could and DIDmatch my driver's license, but, in protest, I always refused to go to that bar, because, anywhere my crossdresser sisters were not welcome...was a place I also would not go.
Besides, it was obvious that, even though a transsexual could match their license...we weren't really wanted there, either.

And I generally have more class than to hang where I'm not wanted. At least, on a social plane!

[LynneSin]

51. Help me here please! What is ENDA?

I hate to seem clueless but would like to understand it better

Thank you :D

[Lib Grrrrl]

59. ENDA = Employment Non-Discrimination Act

n/t

[helderheid]

54. recommended!

[Touchdown]

56. Uh', eh' nevermind.

I can see your presumptiousness needs to be adressed, but I think I'll start my own.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

60. I'm a gay person on your side.

Unfortunately, not enough of us are.

[transeo]

62. Please don't paint us all with that brush

There are plenty of us who consider transgender individuals as an equal and important part of the community, myself included. I know a lot of gay people who are also mad about the way transgender has been left out of anti-discrimination legislation. I am not denying there is a serious problem for transgender people, but please understand you do have allies in the community. :hi:

[Lib Grrrrl]

65. Well, I Wish Our allies Were A Bit More Vocal!!

n/t

[Jeffersons Ghost]

63. I HAVE YOUR "BACK OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS BUS" BUDDY!!!

read this if you want to see "back of the bus" baby because you appear to have no idea about the size of this bus! http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1374892

[undergroundpanther]

69. I gotcha

I'm transgender,bi and asexual and I have mental illness,the bus goes back a loong long way.

[Taxloss]

67. What she said. n/t

[fortyfeetunder]

70. You Rock!

Great rant and you go girl!

I am afraid I won't see the day when we are not judged except on the content of our character. But we can, through our actions, get closer to it.

:yourock:

[Zhade]

71. Needless to say, I'm in your corner.

And GO WASHINGTON STATE!