Newsweek - Some troops are going on patrol totally stoned

[RamboLiberal]

More and more like Vietnam.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13126262/site/newsweek/

<snip>

In December, NEWSWEEK interviewed some Army soldiers going home as conscientious objectors. To fight boredom and disgust, said Clif Hicks, who had left a tank squadron at Camp Slayer in Baghdad, soldiers popped Benzhexol, five pills at time. Normally used to treat Parkinson's disease, the drug is a strong hallucinogenic when abused. "People were taking steroids, Valium, hooked on painkillers, drinking. They'd go on raids and patrols totally stoned." Hicks, who volunteered at the age of 17, said, "We're killing the wrong people all the time, and mostly by accident. One guy in my squadron ran over a family with his tank."

Hicks's own revulsion peaked while he was on patrol in January 2004. He came upon a bloody scene in a Baghdad housing project, where some soldiers had mistaken celebratory shots fired at a wedding for an attack, returning heavy fire and killing a young girl. "I looked in the door and she was dead, shot through the neck, Mom there, Grandma there, all losing it. Then I started thinking, this is really f---ed up, this is horribly wrong." Hicks stopped taking his malaria pills, hoping he'd get sick and shipped out. He says that infantry soldiers sometimes stick their legs out of the Humvee under sniper fire, hoping to get a nonlethal wound.

Hicks claims that "there's a lot of guys who steal from the Iraqis. Money, family heirlooms, and then they brag about it. Guys would crap into MRE bags and throw them to old men begging for food."

<snip>

Though no one is talking openly at Camp Pendleton, Marines and their families are buzzing about what might have gone wrong inside Kilo Company. The wife of a staff sergeant in the 3/1 battalion, who declined to be identified because she doesn't want to get her husband in trouble, told NEWSWEEK that there was "a total breakdown" in discipline and morale after Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani took over as battalion commander when the unit returned from Fallujah at the start of 2005. (Chessani's friends in his Colorado hometown defended him as a dedicated, patriotic, religious Marine.) "There were problems in Kilo Company with drugs, alcohol, hazing, you name it," said the woman. "I think it's more than possible that these guys were totally tweaked out on speed or something when they shot those civilians in Haditha."

But Lucian Read, a freelance photographer who spent seven months with Kilo Company, both in Fallujah and Haditha, did not see warning signs. "Their morale wasn't bad, it was more fatalistic; this is the grunts-get-screwed-every-time," he said. "They were not happy, not pleased, but not angry, either," Read said. "Nothing they ever did or said even hinted at this kind of event. I never saw it coming. No one saw it coming."

[rzemanfl]

1. Not wanting at all to distract from the point of this post, I still must

ask why, God's name, do Iraqis continue to fire celebratory gunshots?

[nolies32fouettes]

42. Two points:

1. We must never treat the troops like they did in the Vietnam protest. Protest the upper heirarchy but we should never spit on soldiers ever. There are few bad apples compared to those who are just stuck in the wrong war at the wrong time.

2. If things are so peachy as Kix says here: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13126262/site/newsweek then our soldiers wouldn't need to be stoned, now would they?

[cyclezealot]

48. I agree

All along we have claimed to be truly supportive of the troops. Support our troops , bring them home.' RIght?
THe mission has been impossible and George has not conscience in keeping troops there three duties. Heck, he is too coward to even visit the troops now.
Justice yes. Such behavior can't go unpunished. But, not with vengeance. The troops are all about to snap, it is a mission impossible. Those accountable must be tried under the Geneva COnvention. Three tours of duty might be a part of their defense reducing their jail time.
Careful here progressives. The freepers are ready to leap on us, saying- see told you,these traitors hate the troops and hate the country. Don't let them.

[Bucky]

51. Two responses: spit and drugs

1. During and after Vietnam, many troops were treated shabbily. But incidents of troops being spit on are apocryphal. Some protestors might have spat on national guardsmen or cops (rarely) when they were ringing them in during mass rallies against the war, but no one has ever documented a case of returning troops being spat on. But I do agree we should focus our anger on the old men who glibly sent them off to die, not the guys who signed up because they wanted to serve their country.

2. Young men living in groups under stress, adrenaline, and the constant fear of guerilla attacks are going to take drugs. That's a matter of fact. Even when there's not a war on, the rollercoaster ride between deadly boredom and sudden bursts of physical exertion makes substance abuse a natural hazard of military life. It probably doesn't help that the army routinely passes out meds to help some troops "focus" in the field. Returning vets that I've talked to say they can hardly function at first when they return home--they can't drive to the mall without being on the constant look out for snipers.

I really hate what this war is doing to this country.

[Virginia Dare]

56. Not to mention...

"Young men living in groups under stress, adrenaline, and the constant fear of guerilla attacks are going to take drugs. That's a matter of fact."

The drug dealers who prey on them...that is also a matter of fact. Is the upper echelon LIHOP?

[KansDem]

75. "...no one has ever documented a case of returning troops being spat on."

I have read reports to this effect. I think the "Vietnam vets being spat on" is right-wing propaganda intended to demonize the anti-war crowd. As you pointed out, there is no record of this happening. I believe it to be, at best, hyperbole, and, at worst, a lie--right up there along with "welfare queen," "liberal media," and "Republicans are the party of fiscal and personal responsibility."

[donsu]

77. I agree - there was no spitting on returning vets from Nam

it drives me nuts when the neo-con brainwashed lie about this

[TahitiNut]

97. Are we revisting this shit again? It happened to me.

I'm getting pretty sick and tired of 'correcting' people about this. There've been lies on all sides of this - including Lembcke's flawed work.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/11
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/TahitiNut/3

[LuckyLib]

90. Over the years, I've always thought if the number of claims by

troops returning from VietNam that they had been spit upon were actually true, there would have had to have been thousands of spitters in every community, meeting them at airports, etc. It became a metaphorical way of capsulizing the country's shame, sheepishness, disinterest, and fatigue. And it wasn't helped by the many stories of napalming, torching villages, and "collateral damage." And it's happening all over again. Deja Nam, as someone put it. (sigh)

[symbolman]

105. Bullshit

I was SPAT ON for simply wearing my USAF uniform in the early 70's at airports, etc.. it's a FACT.. the sad part is, I didn't want to kill anyone, all I wanted to do was grow my hair long and smoke weed, just like the Hippies, tho I pretty much loathe them.. about that time the whole Peace and Love thing was wearing thin, Madison Ave was cashing in on the "Hippie" LOOK, and most of the real hippies had run off to get into speed and heroin, etc..

Some maintained, did the community farms, etc.. many just lost it..

So it's not some Urban myth my friend, I know, I got to watch the goobers roll down my uniform (which I wore for cheaper airline tickets), and got called a "baby killer", etc..

I'm having real problems with supporting the slaughter of civilians, which is always bullshit, having been in the military I can tell you that it's the LAW, if you find or know that an order is Illegal you DO NOT have to follow it.. I knew all the regs in the military and I've told Generals to kiss my ass, that I didn't HAVE TO follow THAT order..

We're going to end up with tens of thousands of mentally ill Murderers walking our streets thanks to Bush's issues and bullshit "war", so all his pals can cash in.. but in some instances it IS the troops fault.

In Nam they put a bullet in their OWN FOOT and didn't hang them out the jeep or Humvees, but I guess maybe they have stranger drugs now that make you dumber than weed and acid.. but SPEED WILL Make you CRAZY, and I suspect there's a lot of That going on.. I KNOW the Pilots were bragging about being drenched in SPEED during a lot of missions in this bullshit faked war..

[Voltaire99]

99. "Spitting on troops..." Er, a dose of reality.

Pick up the current issue of Harper's, on newsstands everywhere. Read the essay "Stabbed in the Back: The Past and Future of a Right Wing Myth" by Kevin Baker.

The spitting-on-troops story is a right wing lie; hope this won't disappoint you.

[Tactical Progressive]

104. Republicans are the only ones who spat on troops returning from Vietnam

Why - because they came back as a bunch of druggies and hippies who lost their war against the Commies.

Like all right-wing ugliness they project their actions onto others. What amazes me is how the victims of their projection accept, somehow, some of their bullshit and feel the need to atone for things they never did. I have no doubt that ten years from now there will be Democrats apologizing for helping to lose the Iraq war and for hating the troops. I have no doubt.

[Prophet 451]

44. Same reason cowboys did

It's a demonstrative culture and that's what they have to hand.

[rzemanfl]

92. Bet they'd have stopped if the Apaches had Apaches and F-16s.

Not that I'm a fan of this War.

[Clark2008]

62. Because it's their country.

Why should they change their cultural lifestyle to suit us?

Of course, we shouldn't even be there, but, that's beside the point.

[rzemanfl]

93. Even assuming this is part of their "cultural lifestyle," bullets that

are shot into the air come down. We shouldn't be there and they should get some M-80's or bottle rockets for special ocassions.

[Dora]

68. Not wanting at all to distract from the intent of your question...

I still must ask why, in Allah's name, do American citizens continue to fire celebratory gunshots? :shrug:

:sarcasm:

[rzemanfl]

94. Never have seen or heard that happen, although I understand it

happens in some cities. Stupid wherever, although I don't think it gets airstrikes called in here (yet).

[The Stranger]

78. Where are you making that up from?

Didn't see that in the article.

[rzemanfl]

91. Assuming this is about gunfire and not spit (dunno where that

came from) I cut the following from the article:

"...where some soldiers had mistaken celebratory shots fired at a wedding for an attack, returning heavy fire and killing a young girl.

[Rex]

2. Guys would crap into MRE bags and throw them to old men begging for food.

Our troops have reached the breaking point, drugs keep them from facing harsh reality. If Iraq was like Bush/Rice/Cheney constantly say it is, then our soldiers would be happy and not need drugs to fog their lives. This is sad on so many levels' soldiers going to serve and ending up fucking up their minds to wash away the horrors of war.

Hey George W Bush, fuck you and anyone who works with you. You all suck and ran from the Vietnam war like chicken shit little cowards. YOU do drugs, but don't have to face the grim death of life in a war zone. Not one of you equal a single piece of SHIT from a soldier constipated from to many MREs.

[Drum]

3. see also: PLATOON

Should we really be surprised?

[cantstandbush]

39. My uncle is a Viet Nam Vet. He said they were stoned most of the time.

It was the only way to make it through.

[Hestia]

46. Do ya'll remember the Ed Bradley piece on CBS Nightly News?

Where he was in Viet Nam and showing guys smoking pot? They told him it was the only way to cope with fighting. I was about 8 years old and I still remember that piece he did to this day. It was pieces like that, that BushCo Pappy & Jr. said the war would not be aired on the news.

Pot, I think I could handle, but hallicinating!?! Come on!

[Chemical Bill]

72. I remember that, using a real shotgun...

to "shotgun" (blow the pot smoke in your buddy's face).

Bill

[TahitiNut]

98. A pack of 'converted' Marlboros was easier to carry than a case of beer.

When guys were out for up to 30 days on patrol, it was a helluva lot easier to carry pot than any kind of booze. From my own personal experience, I can tell you that I'd rather be sharing a bunker with a guy that was high than a guy that was drunk. The drunk just gets in the way. He can get you killed. The guy that's high can function - sometimes maybe better than pissing pants panicked. The guy that's high comes down. The drunk just throws up.

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

59. When I saw this I thought - Even more like Vietnam

The poor grunts never knowing when somebody is going to lob an IED at them.

The even poorer Iraqis, never knowing when a tank is going to run over them.

Thanks, Bushco, for another exercise in military FUBAR.

[babylonsister]

4. Devastating. I have no more words. nt

[tridim]

5. Steroids?

They're taking fucking steroids? Is the military providing them?

Maybe that's why they're killing everyone and anyone.

[Pavulon]

22. Now think about this

How would a soldier get a steady supply of anabolic steroids in Iraq. I've seen and consumed booze while out of the country.

I do not believe that medics carry steroids. Opiates yes.

Those are some mighty exotic drugs to get. Article further notes "these claims may be exaggerated."

Not saying terrible things aren't happening.

[Phrogman]

29. 3rd world countries sell steroids over the counter

Injectable steroids in small glass vials a lot cheaper than US black market.
Also Valium, Dormacum and Trannadol are easily available.

[w8liftinglady]

30. my son took them..they get them in Germany.

a lot of the guys wanted to get buffed up...they took oral anabolic steroids like dianobol.

[Breeze54]

31. I have a pic of

my son smoking out of a "hooka" - water pipe while in Iraq.
I didn't know that he got high. I think it started in Iraq...
He says it was hash. He said it was only once in awhile.

He did give stuffed animals to the kids when he was out on patrol and candy and food we sent.
He said it was just heart breaking to see them begging. He was really upset and still is...

STOP THIS FUCKING WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cry:
:nuke: :grr:

[w8liftinglady]

37. big hug,man-it's hard to know how to comfort them.

:hug:

[Breeze54]

40. I just listen and tell

him I love him.

Backatcha! :hug:

[antonini]

96. In the first US war on Iraq

there was an Air Force dude convicted of huffing halothane, an anasthetic gas used in major surgery and not ordinarily found on the black market at home. But in war, as they go about their business of *causing* traumatic injuries, they know there's a chance they might get hurt, too, so they are prepared.

For the military, steroids are perfect treatment. Injuries that would otherwise slow down or incapacitate a soldier vanish after a single injection and the soldier can be returned to the field. It's not a medically sound practice but for their purposes ...

So, yeah, they probably have steroids, too.

[hollowdweller]

6. They should stick to all the good hash that's over there!

[B Calm]

7. Iraq and Afghanistan is noted for the finest hashish in the world!

I'd be a little surprised if troops weren't smoking it!

[DoYouEverWonder]

8. Unfortunately, perscription meds are the drug of choice

because they can cop an excuse.

[B Calm]

10. I wouldn't be looking for an excuse, more for a ticket out of there!

[NNN0LHI]

9. Lucian Read did not see any warning signs. Stoned too I betcha n/t

[CoffeeCat]

11. Most of the soldiers over there...

...understand that they are expendable play toys in BushCo's war games. They know they are cannon fodder
and they know that they've been lied to.

They're pissed, and rightfully so. To cope with the reality--they self-medicate with any drug that they
can find.

I get so frustrated that Republicans have positioned themselves as the party who respects the soldiers--but the Dems are cast as anti-soldier. Nothing is further from the truth. We respect our courageous soldiers and those who sign up for the military. We don't want them to die in vain---for a useless, discombobulated war that was based on lies and manipulations.

These soldiers know they're being used. They're trained to kill and so much is asked of them. They understand very well
that this is a screwed-up administration that does not know what the hell they are doing. First, the soldiers were told
that they were ridding Saddam of WMD. Then, we found out the intelligence was "fixed" and no WMD exists. Then, Junior
changed his story, and now the soldiers are being told that they're in Iraq to bring "peace and freedom to the Iraqis."

Those soldiers know that they aren't bringing peace. They know that the Iraqis want them the hell out. They know that
innocent Iraqi civilians are being slaughtered. As they see the Iraqis dying and suffering---they have to wrap their
minds around the fact that these are the people that they were sent to "free." Our soldiers are trained to see the Iraqis
as the enemy and not to trust the Iraqis---even the children. A soldier on CNN yesterday---said that one minute an Iraqi
child is asking you for food; the next they're hurling explosives at you.

This is a horrendously screwed up situation. It's been disorganized from the onset and there are no concise goals.

If I was there, I'd be medicating myself too.

When these soldiers return--this country is going to see untold numbers of soldiers with acute PTSD--a very severe form of
the disorder. Not only will they have PTSD, due to the horrors of war--they will be horrendously angry because they'll feel
terrible betrayal. I don't know how these soldiers will function in society. I am terrified for them. Numerous stories
about Iraq vets spotlight PTSD sufferers and how the military is abandoning them and ignoring their trauma.

Our country will pay in spades---for years--because of what is happening to these young men over there.

It is catastrophic and heartbreaking.

[Nickster]

32. You just about summed up my thoughts on the subject. I was just going to

add, take a look at the Vietnam Veterans and you'll see the lasting effects that will be with our newest veterans for their lifetimes. Increased lifetime alcoholism, drug abuse, marriage troubles/divorces, etc. We've been down this road before and unfortunately, we learned nothing from it.

[Breeze54]

35. and women....

"because of what is happening to these young men over there."

I know you know, just thought I'd mention it.... :cry:

[bobbieinok]

41. isn't bushco's VA saying PTSD doesn't exist, therefore VA will NOT

pay for treatment???????

[CoffeeCat]

84. If that is true...

...then that is so outrageous. It would be a crime against our soldiers
to say that PTSD does not exist.

If that's true, then the entire psychiatric and mental-health community
is wrong--and the Fascist, lying bastards in the Bush Administration know
more about mental illness than the entire scientific community.

I realllly hope that isn't true.

Then again--they ignore most scientific and medical research, in order
to justify their inane, unAmerican policies. It's believable that they
would do this--but I hope to God that it's not true.

[bobbieinok]

101. I found this truly disgusting report of the 'debate' in the WP

A Political Debate On Stress Disorder
As Claims Rise, VA Takes Stock

By Shankar Vedantam
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 27, 2005; A01



The spiraling cost of post-traumatic stress disorder among war veterans has triggered a politically charged debate and ignited fears that the government is trying to limit expensive benefits for emotionally scarred troops returning from Iraq and Afghanistan.

....

...Facing a budget crunch, experts within and outside the Veterans Affairs Department are raising concerns about fraudulent claims, wondering whether the structure of government benefits discourages healing, and even questioning the utility and objectivity of the diagnosis itself.
....

Much of the debate is taking place out of public sight, including an internal VA meeting in Philadelphia this month. The department has also been in negotiations with the Institute of Medicine over a review of the "utility and objectiveness" of PTSD diagnostic criteria and the validity of screening techniques, a process that could have profound implications for returning soldiers.

....

Psychiatrist Sally Satel, who is affiliated with the conservative American Enterprise Institute, said an underground network advises veterans where to go for the best chance of being declared disabled. The institute organized a recent meeting to discuss PTSD among veterans.

....

Larry Scott, who runs the clearinghouse http://www.vawatchdog.org/ , said conservative groups are trying to cut VA disability programs by unfairly comparing them to welfare.

Compensating people for disabilities is a cost of war, he said: "Veterans benefits are like workmen's comp. You went to war. You were injured. Either your body or your mind was injured, and that prevents you from doing certain duties and you are compensated for that."

....

"What they are trying to do is figure out a way not to diagnose vets with PTSD," said Steve Robinson, executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Center, a veterans advocacy group. "It's like telling a patient with cancer, 'if we tell you, you don't have cancer, then you won't suffer from cancer.' "

more....

[alfredo]

12. We had chot (cat) weed, speed and opiated ouzo.

No telling how many were high at work. I know a lot worked drunk. The military in the late 60's was getting stoned whenever and wherever they were. Some were getting blotter acid from home. One was getting letters from home with a drop of acid in each corner of the sheet of paper.

[B Calm]

15. They said in 1970 our Navy ship supplied the whole eastern coast

of the USA with hashish after a trip to Holland. I know several guys who made a whole lot of money. One guy sealed and sunked 20 kilo's of black opinated afgani hash in five gallon paint cans. The drug sniffing dogs didn't find his stash. The dude paid cash for a brand new Harley two weeks after getting back to the states.

[alfredo]

17. Our base consumed more alcohol per capita than any

base in the military. They sent investigators there to see if there was a black market scheme going on, but they found we were drinking that much.

Tires and cigarettes were what was being sold on the black market, not booze.

[Breeze54]

33. My ex did the same...

spell correction.

...thing during vietnam when stationed on a Coast Guard cutter.
They would go to Guantanamo Bay and Jamaica and he'd bring home POUNDS!!!!!
It was the best shit I ever had! Jamaican splifs... lots of buds....
He thought it was a frigging riot! Um,... so did I! :rofl:
But it scared the shit out of me that he'd get busted but that wasn't a problem at all.

But my oldest brother came home from Vietnam a heroin addict.
He doesn't know I know...

[donsu]

81. I know a number of men who came home from Nam heroin junkies

nt

[electron_blue]

13. All these young people being ruined (not to mention the Iraqi's)

who will then come back home to live with us. Sickening what a waste this is on all fronts.

[ContraBass Black]

14. WTF?

"Haditha may turn out to be the worst massacre since My Lai. And Iraqis may be entirely justified in their outrage. But the scale of the tragedy should not be exaggerated. America still fields what is arguably the most disciplined, humane military force in history, a model of restraint compared with ancient armies that wallowed in the spoils of war or even more-modern armies that heedlessly killed civilians and prisoners. The 24 Iraqis killed at Haditha are a fraction of the 300-plus lined up and murdered at My Lai in 1968, just as the roughly 2,500 U.S. soldiers who have perished so far in Iraq pales against the 58,000 dead in Vietnam."

[Rose Siding]

21. If they aren't as bad as "ancient armies", it isn't for lack of trying.

The first paragraph is freaky. I'm sure that evidence against the "suspected insurgents", whose horses were confiscated in time for the big chariot race, would be provided if it didn't threaten national security.

And if there are COMMANDERS who "half" joke with instructions like "put a bullet in their f---ing head", um, something's come off its spools.

[Breeze54]

34. I disagree.

I do NOT think the majority of troops are TRYING to 'off' Iraqi's.

Stop grouping them all together and using absolutes/generalizations.
:grr:

[Rose Siding]

36. Then you're disagreeing with someone else, so holster it podner

Unless you approve of the remark made by the commander in the article?

I didn't say anything about the "majority of the troops", now did I?

[Breeze54]

38. could be a mistake....sowwy...shit happens! :) n/t

[Bucky]

50. You've got it exactly backwards. They're better disciplined b/c of trying

Americans don't make war less hell-like by accident. There's a huge emphasis in the training troops go thru in not harming civilians--often even requiring that troops expose themselves to greater danger in order to avoid civilian casualties. The chaos in Iraq that America has unleashed is literally as good as it gets. Given the (false) pretext for the war--the emotionally exploited and volitile 9/11 attacks, it's amazing that we don't hear about more incidents of far higher civilian body counts.

This is why the war should never have been bungled into. Despite having one the most restrained, professional, and ethically bound armies in history, men with gun living under extreme stress will inevitably commit atrocities. When you go to war, when you plan (or fail to plan) to occupy a hostile nation, this is part of the bargain.

It's probably worth noting that if we'd gone in with more troops, this sort of thing would probably happen less. Go figure.

[Rose Siding]

64. The first paragraph

My reference to "ancient times" was connected to my comment about the first paragraph, not the military overall. I was commenting on the circus atmosphere of the psyche-up for battle -which intentionally mimicked "ancient times". I'll cut and paste it here:

The Marines know how to get psyched up for a big fight. In November 2004, before the Battle of Fallujah, the Third Battalion, First Marines, better known as the "3/1" or "Thundering Third," held a chariot race. Horses had been confiscated from suspected insurgents, and charioteers were urged to go all-out. The men of Kilo Company—honored to be first into the city on the day of the battle—wore togas and cardboard helmets, and hoisted a shield emblazoned with a large K. As speakers blasted a heavy-metal song, "Cum On Feel the Noize," the warriors of Kilo Company carried a homemade mace, and a ball-and-chain studded with M-16 bullets. A company captain intoned a line from a scene in the movie "Gladiator," in which the Romans prepare to slaughter the barbarians: "What you do here echoes in eternity."

[Joe Chi Minh]

87. Below, are some excerpts from another take on the situation, in

Iraq, with particular reference to the allegations coming out now, of massacres of Iraqi civilians by US Marines - that of a former Lt. Col in the Royal Tank Regiment, now running a British defence and military consultancy in Edinburgh. The paragraphs in question are taken from an article in yesterday's Sunday Post.

"Allegations of massacres of Iraqi civilians by US Mrines have again put the American military in the international spotlight. One question has been asked time and time again over many years - why do US troops seem so trigger-happy?"

He goes on to cite some compelling historical reasons:

"Unlike the British Army, which has a long history of low-intensity military operations, thanks to its role in policing the former British Empire, the US army is relatively inexperienced in military conflcit short of full-scale warfare. They did this instinctively, because that's what their predecessors had done for hundreds of years, mixing and making friends with communities in countries then under British rule. (snip)

This sort of "hearts and minds" approach, honed more recently in the often deadly context of the Ulster troubles over the past 30 years, isn't easy and it takes confidecne, training and above all, good leadership. But it works and it saves lives in the long run.

Contrast the Britihsh softly-softly approach with the much harder and aggressive way the US military has conducted itself. Armed to the teeth, seldom leaving their armoured vehicles, hidden behind dark glasses and body armour, the American troops look like aliens from another planet, and their very appearance evokes mistrust and fear.

This is made worse by US military teaching and training. Their doctrine is all about committing overwhelming combat power - the "shock and awe" approach - and their emphasis on "protecting the force", in other words, looking after their own first. Soldiers are trained to protect their buddies before any civilian they may come across. (snip)

But there is one important element in all of this, one which we who have been in the British military value and invest more importance in than almost anything else - leadership. During my military career I was fortunate enough to attend not only the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst and the British Staff College at Camberley, but also the US Army's Command and Staff School at Fort Leavenworth in Kansas. I saw how the US concept of military leadership compared with our own. There are quite distinct differences. The Americans are far better than us at getting to grips with large-scale military operations, and the competence and confidence of their officers shows.

But they're not nearly as good at smaller operations, nor do they feel comfy with delegating decision-making to the most junior leadership ranks, which most small operations demand. The result is that (evidently in the latter type of scenario) our junior officers and NCOs are, in general terms, better than theirs, man for man, woman for woman. And as Mai Lai showed, weak leadership can sometimes create circumstances in which such tragedies can occur. It could be argued that the combination of Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and the Iraq massacres show signs of weakness all the way up to and including the Commander-in-Chief himself, President Bush.

Let me illustrate it this way. If I had, during my military career, ordered my soldiers to shoot or otherwise mistreat members of the civilian population in any country we were in, they quite simply wouldn't have done it. They were too well-trained and confident in their own judgment of what was right and wrong to carry out what would have been clearly an illegal order. And they would have known it was not just their right, but their duty to disobey.

In short, US troops are trigger-happy because of their history, their training, and because they're badly led. It's high time they sorted it out."

Well, I suspect that, in principle, he makes some very plausible, if not compelling points, but on the other hand, his article does seem to me to overlook some highly significant elements in the overall equation.

In such an ill-conceived, misbegotten war, he can only at best advocate a re-arrangement of the deck-chairs. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. The Iraqis were never going to make nice with any occupying army, come to plunder their raw materials - never mind impose a US-corporatist, economic culture on them, when the chips are down. They're simply concentrating on the US troops as the over-riding priority, for very obvious reasons. His viewpoint also seems a tad anachronstic, insofar as asymmetric warfare is not going to go away. The Afghans killed an average of 2 British soldiers per day, for as long as the British remained in India, and it's come a long way since then.

On the other hand, if he realises that it is the Neocons at the very top who need to be shown the highway, more even than the higher levels of military leadership need to be improved, he's bang on the mark. The Titanic's immersion could be much gentler and the deck-chairs re-arranged in a much more orderly and seemly fashion. What a bitter epilogue to the heroism of so many US troops currently dying in mind and body in that hell on earth, fully aware of their betrayal by those who are supposed to be leading them.

[TexasLady]

16. I remember reading somewhere

in a history book that commanding officers from hundreds of years ago would get the soldiers drunk so that they would fight a fiercer battle.

[Hestia]

47. They were called Berserkers

[kentuck]

18. They don't need drugs - they need Jesus...

He can help them in battle.

[TexasLawyer]

19. Has it come to this?

He says that infantry soldiers sometimes stick their legs out of the Humvee under sniper fire, hoping to get a nonlethal wound.

[Cha]

20. Ooooops! I thought they

were smoking grass.

[Jeffersons Ghost]

23. It's a Vietnam Ghost from Hell, if chimpy had a brain he'd get out fast

also, Children of the innocent dead Muslims will hunt the little chicken-shit down until they get him.

[MaineDem]

24. "More and more like Vietnam"

That was my very first thought.

[jane_pippin]

25. This memoir by a soldier touches on that a bit...

It's called The Last True Story I'll Ever Tell. While it's by no means the focus of the book, the soldier, John Crawford, does talk a little about soldiers in his unit using drugs, (I think it was morphine and maybe some vicodin but I could be wrong), as well as his own use. He didn't make it sound like it was rampant abuse--in his case, if I remember correctly, he faked a problem so he could get morphine from a medic and chill out for a while even though he knew he could get in trouble if he was caught--but as a reader with no military experience whatsoever it was a little disturbing to read about.

This is a little off topic, but if anybody's interested in reading an account of what it was like, (for one guy at least), to be in Iraq day in and day out for a year as a National Guardsman I think this is a good book to pick up. It's very accessible, very honest, (you probably will get mad at him at some point in the story), and for people who haven't experienced war at all it helps in understanding what it's like for a kid to be there. Like I said, it's just one guy's experience but he tells it well and I think it's worth reading.

Here's an amazon link to it:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1594482012/sr=8-2/qid=1149460073/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-8294606-6092756?%5Fencoding=UTF8

[RamboLiberal]

26. The guy that wrote that book was in Iraq early in the war

You can just imagine how much worse the problem is getting as guys are doing their 2nd, 3rd, 4th tour, etc. and they see things are just getting worse.

Just for the helluva it today I calculated the number of days of this war. 1141 days. WWII it was 1248 days to VE Day and 1347 days to VJ day. Imagine if at this point in WWII if the war against the Nazis and Japan had only gotten worst! Even the "Greatest Generation" would've been screaming for FDR's and his admin heads!

[jane_pippin]

27. That's a good point. It just breaks my heart .

The whole thing does. I have a friend who has to go back for his second tour in a few months, and just picked up an article from my local paper about a guy I went to high school with who just got home. I haven't talked to the second guy--we weren't close--but I have spent a little time with the first one since he's been home and man was that sad. He just had this feeling about him--I don't know how to describe it exactly but it was just painful to see. Thank god they both made it back ok. This time at least.

I got to see the author speak a few months ago--if you see that he's coming to your town, try to go. He answered questions more than he read from the book. I don't remember exactly what he said--it went on for a good period of time--but I do remember that he didn't shy away from answering difficult questions. If I remember one of them I'll post it for you.

[Supersedeas]

79. thanks for the link jane

[Olney Blue]

28. End this fucking war NOW. Someone.....

[think4yourself]

43. So sad

Here we go again... I read the article and I'm just so sad. These poor young men have been sent on lies and are stuck over there on more lies. Please bring them home and let's get this country back on her feet. Peace to all my DU friends.

[Divine Discontent]

45. ugh...

this is horribly sad. drug use is unhealthy imo, and to add the mental trials of being in a WAR to it, oh these poor soldiers, and even poorer Iraqis who are being hurt or killed.


I SAY IT WITH YOU ALL:

END THIS DAMN WAR!


www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- check it out top 06/08 ProDem AntiRep stickers/shirts

[itchyvet]

49. More and more like Vietnam.

As a Vietnam Vet, this is NOT NEWS. Rather simply old hat stuff and REALITY finaly hitting home.
Ask any Vet who has spent extended time in a war zone without a genuine reason for being there, and they'll tell you, "THEY ARE SIMPLY FILLING IN TIME UNTIL THEY RETURN TO THE WORLD" how they fill in that time, has been explained quiet well in the above article.
However, I must point out, to go on patrol or even outside the wire, so to speak, and be under the influence of any drug,is tatamount to suicide IMHO.
No way in HELL, would I EVER allow a fellow soldier to accompany me on such excursions whilst under the influence, which would jeopardise the lives of the rest of the patrol.
So if these guys are ALL under the influence of whatever, whilst carrying out their duties, I'd say there's a SERIOUS MENTAL PROBLEM afflicting the whole lot of them, and whilst this is so, any suggestion that they can succeed in anything is simply ludicrous.
IMHO, if the above report has any validity I'd say the U.S. Military is in SERIOUS deep doo doo.

[LynneSin]

52. Well, if I were forced to fight in a war based upon lies....

...you'd better believe I'd want to take something that would whack me out of my mind. Bad enough I'm there, away from my family but now I'm witnessing some of these most atricious crimes. Please give me something to make me forget what I'm seeing!

[Swamp Rat]

53. We are all gonna pay for this someday, especially our soldiers if they get

captured. :(

:kick:

[rman]

54. pilots are on "go-pills"

It's amphetamine, keeps them awake. These drugs are known to impair judgment wrt driving a car, use of these pills is not approved by the food and drugs administration, so it is experimental. Officially it is voluntary to take these pills, but when you don't take them your commander has the right to evualuate your fitness to do the mission and can ground you. The pilots have to sign a document that states as much.
Even the recommended dose has deprimental side-effects to many pilots, including paranoia. But you can take as many as you want. It's not unusual for pilots to take some 10 to 20 pills with them on a mission, some eat them like candy.


'Friendly fire' pilots: Air Force pushes 'go pills'
Lawyers say amphetamines led to accidental killing
Thursday, January 2, 2003 Posted: 9:44 AM EST (1444 GMT)
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/01/02/mistaken.bombing/

Are US pilots taking ‘go pills’ voluntarily or is there ‘coercion’?
http://tv.oneworld.net/tapestry?link=3842

CounterPunch
January 23, 2003
Flying High
American Pilots Pop "Go Pills," Then Go Kill
http://www.counterpunch.org/heard01232003.html

[Carni]

73. THANK YOU!

That was the article that I remembered reading back shortly into the invasion.

[stop the bleeding]

55. is anyone surprised?? n/t

[sweetheart]

57. Like commander, like troops

The drunken commander and supreme dear leader of the fatherland
is the root basis for a new service.

Steven king had a good quote from the book IT, paraphrased like,
"Luck favours the ignorant, the blessed and the incredibly stoned."

[mtnester]

58. Let me tell you about my Grandpa

A CBEE in WWII. In the islands, their division built runways on the spot. They got dropped, and they used shell and mostly coral (which they harvested from the reefs...yes, destroying them mostly). After he came back, my Grandpa was a hard core alcoholic until 1983, when he had his first heart attack from the damage the alcohol had done. He stopped cold turkey then. However, he never ever talked about his days in the islands..ever...to anyone, even family.

Recently, after my mother died (suddenly and unexpectedly) he started to talk to me about some of his experiences. He brought out pictures that no one knew he had (mostly buddy stuff...his unit buddies, etc.) He started to talk a LITTLE about it...but you could see it killed him to do so.

This past Friday afternoon late, he came over to the house (we live right next door to my grandparents). He and I sat on the porch, talking in general, about my grandma in rehab with a broken hip, and the fight they were having to keep her off of serious addicting painkillers. The conversation then lead to drugs and narcotics, and then lead to his life in the war. He said that the Japanese soldiers, when they were killed and searched, ALWAYS carried a small bag attacked to their person, filled with drugs. Well, the American soldiers, many from small communities, did not even know what drugs were, nor were inclined to take them. But alcohol...that was another story. He and I discussed how drugs and alcohol related to specific wars, and were wondering what the folks in this war and those coming home, would turn to. In his day it was alcohol, as was Korea. We discussed Vietnam and the marijuana and heroin, and decided that those fighting this war would cover their pain and fear, there and once home, with prescription drugs.

I told my Grandpa that nowadays, they have an official name for what he went through, and is STILL going through...Post Traumatic Stress. He said if he knew about drugs, and had access to them in WWII, he would have taken them too. He also told me the only way he would EVER stop reliving the atrocities (on both sides) of WWII, was when he died. His greatest fear is that he will have to live with them even after death. He also believed that the drugs the Japanese carried drove them to commit atrocities that were FAR more brutal than the American GI's could even THINK up. And as of yet, he will not discuss exactly what he saw.

Does it surprise me that we see this happening in this war? No....no one knows what it would take to make good folks get through something we can only imagine, and not come close to understanding.

My Grandpa said you could not kill a man if he is a man to you....he has to become something else, not human, even if death is looking you in the eye...if you stop for one moment because the person is still human to you, you are the one who dies. This was the only way he and most of his unit survived. They drank their beer as hard as they could while there, and many came back to live a life of misery and alcoholism due to PTSD, never understanding what it was, and never getting the help they needed for it. Do drugs help generally good people turn men/women/children into something other than humans? Perhaps that is the only way you can do that. I also believe that there are bad apples in every walk of life, and sport killing people for some military personnel is something they could only have dreamed of back home, but have permission to do there. Those are the bad apples. The rest? Good folks getting by the only way they can, who will have nightmares and SUFFER for the rest of their lives from it. Regardless, this whole war is a nightmare for everyone involved..those fighting and those who live there.

My Grandpa is 84 BTW...vigorous as hell and looks 15 years younger than he is with a full set of shockingly silver thick hair. Yet, when discussing the islands, 63 years or so later, there always comes a point when he starts to tear up, the conversation is over, and he has to walk away.

These young men and women, when coming home, regardless of what they did, or how they came to do it, are going to need us badly...I hope that we, and our GOVERNMENT, are there for them in a big way. Compounding crimes with the bigger crime of not helping the people we asked to risk their lives, for whatever reason (lies about WMD, etc) are going to need us, hopefully sooner rather than later. And we cannot wait for them to ASK...we have to be proactive immediately.

And we cannot count on the current regime in charge of this country to do it, because they are not doing enough now. Change in government must come..and these troops AND the rebuilding of Iraq and help for those in Iraq had better be a priority.

[thereismore]

71. Which Islands? Peleliu? nt

[mtnester]

82. I have never asked him which ones....I just sit and listen

I am afraid if I ask too much, he will stop talking, but now that you have asked, I will ask him today when I get home and see if he will answer me.

He also talked about the ONE time he thought he would get off the islands by doing bombing runs, and once he went on one and realized that he had to stand on a 4 inch balance beam and watch the bottom of the plane drop out, well, he changed his mind. It was one incident we could both laugh at because I am (ashamedly) deathly afraid of heights too!

[mtnester]

83. New info per your question ....

My Grandpa served in the Navy construction forces, affiliated with the 4th Marine Raiders....he was on Guadalcanal, Fiji, and many more he could not recollect when I called him. He said he has a book (journal) with all the info in it...another thing we did not know he had. He also said they bounced from island to island.

He specifically mentioned a tiny island with a mining strip on it, he could not remember the name, where a large ammo ship got blown up just offshore. And he was on the Philippines when one of the last air raids mounted by the Japanese occurred.

[thereismore]

95. Fascinating, thank you! Those islands were pure coral hell. nt

[anarch]

88. my grandfather was a squad leader in a rifle company in the ETO

in France and Germany, his division saw 195 continuous days of combat. When he came back, he was totally fucked up. He was an alcoholic and addicted to valium until the day he died (and relatively young, go figure), and couldn't sleep without the radio on thanks to his two years or so of war. He would never talk about his experiences.

There is no adequate coping mechanism for what war does to a person...or a nation, for that matter. Not at all. That's why it is to be avoided except as an absolute last resort...that's why we as a global society developed the concepts of international law and just wars that our American "leaders" have now forsaken.

[mtnester]

89. I am sorry about your grandfather...I am grateful I still have mine

and I am in my mid forties.

I want to hear more from him....although it causes him pain I know, it is also such a fascinating part of what makes him my grandfather. If I can keep letting him talk, I want to write it down for the rest of the family, since no one knows ANYTHING, even my grandmother.

Maybe, just maybe, as he talks, I can gently remind him that heavens gates will be open for him, that he will not have to take this with him after he dies....and maybe, he will understand that people who love him understand and do not judge.

[w8liftinglady]

60. my son took off last night..to new mexico.left a stickie on the door.

I am getting the feeling that he is having a lot of trouble acclimating to civilian life,and went to find an army buddy.he is still so closed-up.doesn't talk about much.it worries me.

[mtnester]

61. Please stop by this site to get some assistance for yourself too

http://www.iraqwarveterans.org/ptsd.htm

There are links that may help, not only you but understanding or maybe even helping your son. If this site is not good for you, try googling PTSD support to get into a support group or area...even if you just read stuff.

I will hope for peace for your child, and for you.

[DemonFighterLives]

63. What kills me

How come these embedded reporters see nothing? A gal on TV who was embedded with the Haditha Massacre bunch never seen nothing wrong.
These embeds are a joke. What does it take to get honest coverage from dubco? Dumb question, it isn't going to happen. So many of the finer journalists are dead. dubco has a way of inspiring crooks, thieves and liars and now drugged up killing machines.
Not against the troops, BTW freepers, just against this administration.
:freak:

[thereismore]

65. "I don't think anyone could have anticipated a breakdown of

morale". I am hearing it now.

[NoSheep]

66. Funny. I never shot the wrong person when I was stoned.....

This is completely ridiculous. What the hell do you want them to do? There are plenty of soldiers, I'm sure, who out of sheer anger and frustration and fear and all the rest, shoot at anything that moves. Pot or no pot. The answer...the ONLY answer... is BRING THEM HOME NOW! Bullshit about them getting stoned is irrelevant to the kind of job they are doing. If you don't understand that, you don't understand pot OR mind control.

[NicRic]

67. Appears to have more incommon with Viet Nam....

more and more as this illegal war continues ? First the stories of inocent civilians being killed ,and now drug use amoung the inlisted men ? Cant we all see that this war is nothing then another wrong road being taken ,and the further down this road we ravel the worst things are going to get .They say you should learn from your mistakes ,apprently we did not learn from the huge mistake Viet Nam was ,and the amuont of lives lost was and is unacceptable ! Now on a daily basis we are seeing and incresae of lost lives ,and horror stories of your young men being changed into what they are not murderers asked to carry out this illegal was ! My brothers step son is a Marine and will soon be heading off to Iraq ,and Iam afraid for his life and also for his soul, will he come back as the nice polite young man he left as ? I certainly hope so ,also FYI ,he has never been a substance abuser ,however his father had problems with drug use ,and I fear him being in a situation with no adult supervision ,of catching the same probs ,his Dad is still fighting with !

[Carni]

69. Well I saw this coming...

Does anyone but me remember the two air force guys that dropped bombs on the British troops in Iraq? (I may have that part screwed up but they did something whacky) They were all hyped up on speed and it was widely reported. I believe that incident took place very early on after the *invasion* ???

When I watched F911 and I watched the footage of our troops in Iraq making jokes about the dead Iraqi and riding around in their tanks blasting out Metallica,
I thought to myself those guys are on something.

I have posted many times on here that I believe that drug use by our troops must be rampant in Iraq right now and the Pentagon is probably just turning a blind eye (or providing the drugs)

This is Vietnam all over again if you ask me... wait until these poor guys get back home with addictions and mental problems as a parting gift for serving--it's not going to be pretty.

[Chico Man]

70. I've heard they have some crazy hash over there

From first hand accounts from soldiers, it's all the rage.

[mdmc]

74. war is hell

war is crime

[SunDrop23]

76. All of the atrocities = result of poor planning of chickenhawks in DC

[The Stranger]

80. This is the problem with DU SUPPORT THE TROOPS threads/rallies.

Forcing people to support all of the troops, without exceptions for the ones that engage in torture and massacre innocent civilians, or who run over families in tanks, or who torture prisoners of war, etc., etc., etc., simply cannot be done by a Progressive of good conscience.

[Voltaire99]

100. Well said, Stranger. MLK knew what rotten imperialism is...

Uber-patriotic Dems can easily resemble Republicans, and truly there's little difference: both see American military force as a cleansing agent in a dirty world. Such thinking led Democrats into Vietnam and, recently and eagerly, into Iraq.

These Dems should read MLK Jr's brilliant, life-changing speech, "Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence," a text that could help some see the matter more clearly.

One passage, in which King discusses the US view of itself as liberators, has eerie implications for today:

We have destroyed their two most cherished institutions: the family and the village. We have destroyed their land and their crops. We have cooperated in the crushing of the nation's only non-Communist revolutionary political force -- the unified Buddhist church. We have supported the enemies of the peasants of Saigon. We have corrupted their women and children and killed their men. What liberators?

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/058.html

This is the King you don't see in the superficial anniversary montages that try to encase him in a sentimental amber--this King is too potent for prime time, too aware of what has been done in the name of liberation, and what such propaganda masks, and whom it hurts, and why it must stop.

Like him, I support the troops. My support is demanding that they come home; further, that the overbuilt military is demobilized, and its soldiers placed instead in peaceful, productive jobs. A dream, sure, but I would say to our warrior Dems: if you aren't dreaming it, then brother why not?

[newspeak]

85. remember at the beginning of the invasion

wasn't there an article that said some of the troops were given speed to keep the awake? If true, isn't our own government pushing some drugs? And, if they did take speed, doesn't it cause paranoia? I hear that opium has flooded into Iraq because of the bumper crops in Afghanistan. Heroin and morphine are both highly addictive--morphine is addictive but is not supposed to destroy parts of the brain as other drugs--but heroin causes major adverse physical effects (severe withdrawal symptoms) if you don't get a fix. We had soldiers coming back from Vietnam with major drug problems-I hope this is not the case. However, if I had to be in that environment day in and day out, I'd be token something!!!

[lebkuchen]

86. If the bumper crop of opium is affecting the UK

imagine the need in Iraq, with soldiers on their 3rd tour to No Man's Land.

[Raster]

102. My ten cents: (1) If I was in the Iraq hell-hole I would definitely need

some type of chemical alterant to deal with the shit. I don't think a goodly portion of us have any idea what these kids--yes, most of them just kids--are having to deal with; and (2) if I'm going to be spitting on somebody, it ain't gonna be on the soldiers coming home. WE ALL KNOW WHO NEEDS TO BE SPIT ON, and it ain't the men and women in uniform.

[Djinn]

103. well duh

PEOPLE take drugs, so unsurprisingly people in the army do too, plenty of them would be using even if they were back home and had never been anywhere near Iraq. Some are probably using to stress relieve...kinda no shit sherlock really.

However being off your dial on pot or amphetamines DOES not make one shoot a child in the head, not at all, ever. People need to accept that what someone does under the influence of drugs is STILL being done by them.

No amount of speed in the world can make you a rapist or murderer if you're not one already