X-Men: Heroes or Log Cabin Republicans?

[Boomer]

The central theme of the X-Men 3 movie is whether or not mutants should be "cured" once an antidote to their non-conformity has been discovered. Hardly surprising that this theme resonates strongly with gays, but speaking as a lesbian, I left the theater believing the movie takes some rather dubious stands on this complex issue.

How are the X-Men any different than Log Cabin Republicans who defend the party that has nothing but comtempt for them, or is not willing to take a stand against party-wide bigotry? Or Dinos, for that matter, who would just as soon ditch gay civil rights since it erodes their voting base.

Most of the X-Men were opposed to the "cure" -- just as are the supposed villains led by the powerful Magneto -- but the X-Men chose to defend the establishment that created the cure and which had already begun deploying that cure was a defensive weapon, not just a voluntary embracing of conformity. The reasons for this political choice were implied rather than debated openly, but I presume them to be somewhere along lines of deploring violence and choosing instead to work within the system and hope for the best.

Which is more or less the line I take now with politics, but then no one has found a "cure" for homosexuality.

Yet.

If such a treatment were to be developed, I have no doubt that it's use would very quickly transition from "voluntary" to "necessary for the common good." And unlike the X-Men, I'm not convinced that defending the establishment would be the right choice.

[Lost-in-FL]

1. You made me go to their web site (Log Cabin Republicans)

And first thing I see is this http://www.logcabin.org/campaign/noFMA

I am sorry, but i don't know if I should laugh about this. Kinda make me tell them "How do you like your president now?" But then, if the bill goes through they will blame the Democrats (and of course Clinton).

[shadowknows69]

2. I thought the end was also quite inconsistent

with the message. it DID stay somewhat true to the xmen's role in the comics which was basically to defend humanity, right or wrong against mutants that look to conquer mankind instead of live in harmony with them. so it wasn't so much the cure they were defending but humanity so that hopefully they'll see that not all mutants are evil. that was the essence of xavier's dream in the comics anyway. ok, yes I'm a scif/comic/fantasy geek in his mid 30's. probably shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who reads my posts lol. anyhoo wolverine kicked ass and i got to see halle berry in leather without having to lower myself to renting "Catwoman" so it was worth the 8 bucks. ;)

[zonmoy]

14. don't worry you are not the only sci-fi geek here.

as for your comment on catwoman I didn't find the movie that bad but kind of good.

[Boomer]

15. "Defend against conquest" works for me

But the X-Men's stand against Magneto was never defined in those terms. In fact, it was never defined at all.

The assumption of this stance might have worked if Magneto's sole purpose was to assert Mutant power over humans for selfish gain. But his rage against a "cure" was genuine, even if he used that as a recruiting tool for his own agenda.

I would happily have traded two-three minutes of explosions for one scene in which Magneto was more explicitly using the issue of the cure as an excuse and another scene in which the X-Men openly expose or discuss those ulterior motives.

But making the cure the sole issue of contention puts me in Magneto's camp. He called the X-men race traitors, and in this case I would have to agree.

[Ian David]

3. Why do gay people want to enlist in the military?

Maybe The X-Men are more like gay service members than like the Log-Headed Repukes.

[Lost-in-FL]

4. Same reason as everybody else...

Love for the country, college money, some loved the military (mil history, arms, etc.), etc. Had plenty of friends in the service who were homosexuals.

[sweetheart]

35. Why do gay people pay taxes?

Paying people to persecute you is pretty much what the federals do,
taxed to be warred upon, there comes a point...

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. They may be saving humanity for the day when all humans will

become mutants not of their own choosing, but because of forces beyond their control. Mutation into something better, stronger and more accepting is where we are all headed if my hunch is correct.

[Ian David]

6. Mutation and evolution are not always for the better.

There is no "direction" to natural selection.

[shadowknows69]

8. a society can control

which way it "evolves" to a certain extent. I seriously fucking hope so anyway.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. Not the type of evolution I am talking about.... check out the changes

taking place in and on the planets in our galaxy, there's some might weird stuff going on out there and it may influence mankind in ways yet undreamed of.

[johnaries]

7. But, but, I thought PRAYER could cure homosexuality!

:evilgrin:

[Rex]

9. A very silly plotline, I liked the first two and love the x-men

franchise. The same arguement could be made for if they found a 'cure' for people who are left handed (I'm left handed) that could make them conform to a right handed world. Silly stuff.

[jayfish]

36. I Was Never Into The Comic Books...

but didn't the first two movies, pretty explicitly, setup that idea that non-mutants view mutants as a grave threat? Even though it was propaganda, psy-ops or as a result of Magnetos actions?

I liked X3 btw.


Jay

[Solo_in_MD]

10. I thought of it in terms of the deaf

since I have family that is impacted.

Cochlear implants and some emerging digital technologies have a great deal of promise WRT to "curing" many deaf people. This has caused a major controversy in the deaf community, which already has it share of schisms. To some its on the order of betraying your race. It gets worse from there. Being a hearing person with a interest/involvement in that community makes it worse.

Thats what I thought of, vice gay when I saw X-men 3.

[Boomer]

17. That works too

I don't claim that the X-Men movies are a metaphor for being gay. But they are most definitely a metaphor for non-conformity, for being the "other." That scenario speaks to anyone who is born into a family that may reject them, and who has to build a family from fellow non-conformists.

That theme obviously resonates very strongly with gays, but I can also see the parallels with the deaf community or outcast groups.

[Yollam]

12. As a leftist, the X-men sound more like establishment democrats to me.

Loyal to the establishment and the current system & Constitution, no matter how oppressive it becomes and how flawed it has proven to be.

I personally would have no problem with starting all over again from scratch, as the current experiment has been a dismal failure for an awful lot of people.



But that's just me. I don't see the parties as being all that dissimilar - evil and less evil. (I know, heresy of heresies to say that here at DU - commence flaming and jeers of "Naderite!", even though I voted for Kerry...)

[kiahzero]

13. They were defending innocent life

Like the kid that Magneto was going to kill to accomplish his mission.

[Hippo_Tron]

16. The difference is that Magneto fights them VIOLENTLY

Charles Xavier wasn't in favor of the cure either, but he wanted to solve the problem peacefully. You don't see gays bombing evangelical churches in this country because they fight for their rights through the political process which is what Xavier does. Magneto fights for mutant rights with acts of terrorism.

[Boomer]

19. Peace works, up to a point

The conflict between Xavier and Magneto was quite solidly outlined in terms of good and evil in the first two movies. Magneto, no matter how justified his rage, had made a choice in favor of violence that was definitely a poor ethical choice. Opposing him was not a stretch.

But once the "cure" was brought into the mix, the lines between good and evil started to blur a bit. The X-Men were under attack from TWO sides now: Magneto on one, the Establishment on the other. At the very least, I would have liked some acknowledgement from the X-Men that Magneto was forcing them to make a very difficult choice.

Siding with the Establishment, even at risk of becoming a victim to their cure politics, should have been debated by the X-Men. It was their unquestioning support of Humans, on an issue of Mutant bigotry, that made me recoil.

>> You don't see gays bombing evangelical churches in this country because they fight for their rights through the political process... <<

Or lose them, as the case may be. I can cope with the loss of civil rights, depressing as it may be, but if the Evangelicals start waving around a "cure" that can be injected in homosexuals, I may be less sanguine about non-violence. Trying to cure me of who I am, of my most basic sense of self, would be violence. And if the political process won't protect me from that final solution, then all bets are off.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. They already have gay "re-education" camps...

Claiming that they can cure homosexuality.

[Boomer]

22. Yeah, but it's a bogus claim

The only "cure" offered is self-will and the voluntary desire to change yourself.

I may not agree with that particular choice, but if a gay person wants to give it a try, then I'm not going to stop them. Anymore than Woverine tried to stop the young Mutant woman who chose to lose her powers because they were the root of her emotional deprivation.

It's when the "involuntary" line creeps closer and closer that I start getting a little nervous. When the Evangelicals start rounding us up and shipping us off to those centers, we need to fight back. I think that possibility is getting closer than I would like, given the current political climate. I keep waiting for the general public to rebel against the Fundie movement as a whole, but I'm beginning to wonder if that won't happen until they've ploughed under a few scapegoats first.

[Hippo_Tron]

24. The involuntary part was unclear

The implication was that the President didn't want to force the cure on people, but my guess is that before Magneto started his terrorists attacks, he ordered the original cure weapons (like the one used on Mystique) made as a way to defend the country against attacks by mutants.

Of course, it's obvious to see how Magneto would interpret this and rightfully so. The Jews didn't see the holocaust coming and thought that they were taking a shower right until the moment the gas was turned on. The idea that he would want to start fighting back before the worst starts makes perfect sense.

Clearly Magneto and Mystique are villains, the movies portray some admirable qualities about them. One of the interesting things is that when they released multiple-man from his cell, he instantly joined Magneto when asked. It sort of implies that mutants really have nowhere else to go.

I think that Xavier is admirable as well, though, for trying to, as Magneto says, build bridges between humans and mutants. Violence is an easy answer when you have mutant powers, but it's good that there is an idealist who still believes in peaceful solutions.

[Marr]

18. I'm a bit off topic, but you know what my favorite part of that movie was?

It was Ian McKellan's part at the beginning, where he accompanies Professor Xavier on a trip to visit a young mutant. He played it less like a colleague and more like a lover, I thought- not sure what it was, but that's how it read to me. That'd actually be a more interesting angle, I think.

Anyway, might've just been my perception.

[Boomer]

21. LOL! I had exactly the same reaction

In fact, at that point in the movie I leaned over and whispered to my partner "I wonder if anyone is writing any Xavier/Magneto slash?"

Yes, there was an intimacy and affection between the two of them that could be interpreted as portraying them as lovers. That history would certainly add even more poignancy to their estrangement.

I wonder if that impression was intentional on the part of the two actors? Certainly Ian McKellan (who is openly gay) would feel a quite personal affinity for the parallels between the gay and Mutant "coming out" stories, and Stewart has embraced a gay role (Sterling in Jeffrey) without any qualms.

[Marr]

27. I wonder the same thing. I remember hearing McKellan talking

about Lord of the Rings, where he'd suggested to Sean Astin that he touch Elijah Wood's hand or something at some intimate moment. It wasn't that he wanted to suggest some sexual connection, but just a close bond. Seems like he'd mentioned something about how he thought it'd occured to him because of his sexual orientation. I'm missing the specifics, but it amounted to putting a little more of a physical connection into the role to sort of enhance the impression of their friendship.

And LOL at Xavier/Magneto fiction, btw. How's the expression go...? "Yes, there's porn about it. No exceptions".

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. Can't I Just Watch The Movie For Sake Of Entertainment Purposes?

Do I need to analyze it for political ramifications and messages? I mean, it is just a damn movie meant to entertain an audience right? Like, I'm not supposed to be boycotting it now or something I hope.

Sheesh, why can't we just let movies be movies anymore. Everythings gotta be so damn dissected.

Not me though. I'm just gonna watch the movie and enjoy it for what it is. I hope that's ok.

[theHandpuppet]

25. Kick

[Boomer]

26. And you're on this thread why?

If your idea of entertainment does not involve analysis and an exploration of theme and subtext, then you're perfectly free to avoid thinking about it. But there's little point in reading (and responding) to this thread just to make that statement, when it's obvious that the point of this thread is more than munching popcorn while watching explosions.

Unlike you, I find the analysing of a movie's message to be part of the entertainment. A movie that doesn't provide me with layers of meaning is boring in the extreme.

I hope that's ok with you, too.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. I'm On This Thread Because This Is A Message Board.

And I'll continue to feel free with my sentiment on a topic when posted on a message board, without having to first ask you if there's point to it or not. See, you don't get to make that call, as to whether or not I should or shouldn't reply or what reaction I give when and if I choose to reply. So you're going to have to get over that, cause on a message board you must be prepared for people to reply with sentiments you may not appreciate.

I saw the thread, read it, thought it was dissecting a movie to the nth degree, made my eyes roll, and caused me to think "sheesh, it's just a movie meant to be a movie. This is taking it wasy more deep than the movie was intended. Do I have to tear the movie down just as much in order to not risk being called a freeper? Or can I just watch the goddamn movie and enjoy it for what it is?"

That's what went through my head, so that's what I responded with. Not everything has to be broken down into such serious political tones. Sometimes movies are just movies. And yes ,that's my perrogative to just want to watch the movie without feeling like I have to come back here and say the right deep messages in it or risk being called god knows what.

It's just a damn movie. That's my take on it. I'm in this thread stating my opinion of that, since that's what message boards are for. If you didn't like my reply, ahhh well.

Nite now.

[theHandpuppet]

30. Maybe YOUR attack on the poster was our first clue

If you want to discuss the movie for its sheer entertainment value, no one is stopping you. In fact, there's a whole forum called "Entertainment", isn't there? This thread was posted to the DISCUSSION forum where folks engage in, well, DISCUSSION. If that's not your cup of tea you're certainly free not to discuss the topic at hand or even put the thread on ignore, rather than berate the OP and others posting here for wanting to have a discussion you don't enjoy. But that's too easy, huh?

[rman]

32. You don't mean to say you think others should not

"dissect" the movie, do you?

[rman]

31. Sure you can - why even ask?

What makes you think it'd not be ok?

[Boomer]

34. It's knee-jerk defensiveness

I've been writing analysis and commentary about my favorite TV shows and movies for decades on various forums, and inevitably someone will complain that "I just want to be entertained. Why do you have to analyse/overanalyse/take the fun out of it, yada yada yada." As if my posting these discussions somehow forces them to participate in this analysis.

My best guess as to this reaction is some kind of emotional insecurity. That because I like sifting through the deeper meaning of even a trashy TV show, they feel as if their unanalytical enjoyment is seen as a sign of intellectual inferiority. So out comes the bluster and anger and the "defense" of their "just fun".

Which makes as much sense as my posting a defense of not enjoying golf or not enjoying discussing the tactical aspects of a football game.

[jayfish]

37. Sure You Can OMC.

That's what I went to see it for (I was not disappointed). But the story does have a socio-political dimension and that's fun to talk about too.

Jay

[KyuzoGator]

28. Iceman's "coming out" to his parents in X2 was the best gay parallel.

"Have you ever tried not being a mutant?"

And incidentally, the original intent of the X-Men comic book was to parallel the struggles of the civil rights movement in the 1960's.

[theHandpuppet]

33. Interesting perspective from Ian McKellan

Excerpt from an interview:

PLUME: What drew you in, when you read the script? What was strong enough to pull you out of your respite?

MCKELLEN: I was intrigued about being involved in something which was potentially going to draw in a wide, popular audience. I thought, as a piece of very popular entertainment, that it had every chance to work. The fundamental argument between the X-Men and Magneto is one which applies to other minorities – and, in a sense, gay men are mutants, Jews are mutants... Any minority is likely to consider the argument between Xavier and Magneto. Do we integrate? Do we play down our differences? Do we assimilate? Do we appear normal? Or do we, in Magneto's view, declare our differences, be proud of them, and even prepare to fight the majority? That's an interesting dilemma, isn't it? You don't find that in all the comics that have been filmed. I wasn't sure that I could do it... I don't know that I have done it – we'll have to wait and see.

You can read the entire interview at: http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/035/035889p1.html

[LisaLynne]

38. That's really an interesting take.

I think I would have to divorce the Movie X-Men from the Comics X-Men, because the movies, of course, have much less material in them, as opposed to the comic which has been around for a LONG time and has quite the history, IMHO.

I can totally see why someone would get that perspective from the movies. From what my memory tells me (which may or may not be accurate--hee hee), I don't think Charles' and thus the X-Men's philosophy is ever spelled out. In the comics, it's clearly that their problem with Magneto is that he uses violence, even though he's often acting for basically noble ideals (such as making the world safe for mutants). It's his methods that are the problem. Charles and the other X-Men who care to think about it know they are hated and feared by a vast majority of the humans, but they dream of being able to resolve things peacefully. In fact, there are periods in the comic where Magneto gives up his quest for world domination and they all get along for a while. Also, in the comic there is more time to explore individual characters, who often go back and forth between wanting to protect humans and getting a little sick of being hated. Characters do fluctuate between Magneto's stance and Charles'.

So, I guess maybe with the movies because they just haven't had as much time to explore all this, they didn't realize that it comes off as making the X-Men appear to be supporting a system that oppresses and hates them, instead of the more nuanced stance of the comics.

And now I have totally exposed myself as a nerd. :)

[theHandpuppet]

39. Thanks for the comparison

I had wondered how the comic version compared with that of the movies. One of the failings of this latest film is, IMHO, that they sacrificed plot and characterization for endless scenes of explosions and hand-to-hand combat. They could have easily cut out some of the FX and given us a clue as to what the characters were thinking and their motivations. But of course that would take *writing* and a director who cared about such things.

No stone-throwing from this quarter, BTW. Of of my favorite possessions is my complete collection of the short-lived Starstruck comics and some original comic art. :evilgrin:

[theHandpuppet]

40. And fiction begins to merge with reality

Today's Gay Hate Fest at the White House, with Bush smirking his way through condemnation of gays, shows just how close we're coming to a purge of gays, disguised as a "cure".

What was significant was the silence from other quarters. A few Democrats spoke up, but most dismissed this event as a politcal ploy. They didn't refute the hate, the bigotry, the sheer sliminess of this kind of gay-bashing - they just shrugged and said it was a show.

Well, it was a HATEFUL show and should have been roundly condemned as unacceptable behavior by the president of the United States.

I am a Mutant in Amerika today.