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Salon article: Was the 2004 election stolen? No. (DU dissed!)

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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:25 PM
Original message
Salon article: Was the 2004 election stolen? No. (DU dissed!)

Was the 2004 election stolen? No

In Rolling Stone, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. argues that new evidence proves that Bush stole the election. But the evidence he cites isn't new and his argument is filled with distortions and blatant omissions.

By Farhad Manjoo

Illustration by Bob Watts/Salon.com

June 3, 2006 | "After carefully examining the evidence, I've become convinced that the president's party mounted a massive, coordinated campaign to subvert the will of the people in 2004," Robert F. Kennedy Jr. declares in the latest issue of Rolling Stone. And so, 19 months after the election, let us head once again into this breach.

To date, dozens of experts, both independently and as part of several research panels, have spent countless hours examining 2004's presidential election, especially the race in Ohio. Many of them have concluded that the election there strains conventional notions of what a democracy ought to look like; very little about that race was fair, clean or competent. Way back in January 2005, a panel headed by Democratic Rep. John Conyers of Michigan reported that it had found enough irregularities in Ohio to call into question the state election results and the entire presidential vote. A report by the Democratic Party released last year found "evidence of voter confusion, voter suppression, and negligence and incompetence of election officials." Then there are the legions of activists, academics, bloggers and others who've devoted their post-Nov. 2 lives to unearthing every morsel of data that might suggest the vote was rigged; their theories, factoids, and mountains of purportedly conclusive data likely take up several buildings' worth of hard-drive space in Google's server farms.

One has to wonder what, after all of this, Kennedy might have brought to the debate. There could have been an earnest exploration of the issues in order to finally shed some light on the problems we face in elections, and a call to urgently begin repairing our electoral machinery. Voting reforms are forever on the backburner in Congress; even the 2000 election did little to prompt improvements. If only someone with Kennedy's stature would outline this need.

If only. Whatever his aim, RFK Jr. does not appear intent on fixing the problem. He's more content to take us through a hit parade of the most popular, and the most dismissible, theories purporting to show that John Kerry won Ohio, theories that have been swirling about the blogosphere ever since the race was called. I scoured his Rolling Stone article for some novel story or statistic or theory that would prove, finally, that George W. Bush was not the true victor. But nothing here is new. If you've spent time on Democratic Underground or have read Mark Crispin Miller's "Fooled Again," you're already familiar with everything Kennedy has to say.

more...

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/06/03/kennedy



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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
1. Want to write the media?
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Touchdown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:31 PM
Response to Original message
2. Manjoo has been riding this horse since before the election.
He's saying nothing new, and ignoring what new evidence there is. He's a useless tool, and probably on the GOP payroll too.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Manjoo is one of the reason I won't renew my subscription to Salon.
Not worth it. They have some good stuff, but lately when I go there I see nothing much of importance.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. I canceled because of Manjoo and I was a subscriber from the start.
When I called to cancel, they'd had so many that day (from DU;) the person answering the phone wanted me to talk to him and really let him have it. Told her I didn't have the time.

Salon sucks.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. And Mr. Manjoo's expertise in this matter...
Is what? Why should I be considering his rebuttal. Apparently he couldn't wait to get this article out there, to cop some of RFK Jr's action.

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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
5. Those Diebold machines were made to be hacked
Edited on Fri Jun-02-06 10:59 PM by billbuckhead
If they weren't meant to be tampered with why weren't there more protections on these machines? Like Bill Clinton says " A tortoise doesn't end up on top a fence post by accident".

Also, why were there so many problems with enough voting machines in Dem areas?
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
6. Well Mr Manjoo
you don't speak for me or think for me. I will come to my own conclusion without interference from someone sitting behind a desk claiming they know all.

Oh by the way Mr. Manjoo where is your proof it wasn't?

Enough is Enough.
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
7. JFK Jr. finally, getting at the very least some much needed national media
Edited on Fri Jun-02-06 11:36 PM by LaPera
attention...

As the Dem's hide in the sand and won't acknowledge the Diebold & ES&S facts they hope they can be the ones to keep their jobs if they just don't rock the republican boat...(they have to let some Dem's keep their jobs...or be oh so obvious, a one-party system)...JFK Jr. is trying, and Rolling Stone a huge major worldwide magazine, via Jann Wenner deserves a big toast...What other major national magazine(or newspaper)is doing more, or for that matter, what mainstream web site is offering more, certainly NOT Salon or Mr. Mcgoo!

If you think the republicans aren't going to pull off another big coup, just watch this November elections...the republicans have NOTHING to lose by manipulation and stealing what they need to keep their majority - or face jail time and impeachment...

The only hope for our nation is to keep the republican electronic voting machine scams and frauds out there and maybe, just maybe, the other mainstream media will be forced to do their job and report...

Don't hold your breath though.

Cheers to RFK & the Stone for trying!!
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. A very cogent analysis and rebuttal
of the BS that has been floating around the internet since Nov 2004.

Thank you Mr. Manjoo.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Here is some more of what you call "BS"
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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes, all was just as the media reported?
No "BS" from our media, no discrepancies... yes indeed, Bush won because people just don't want gay marriage.

Let me offer you a fantastic stock deal!!!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. You got it! And it goes for some around here...there's always a few
Edited on Fri Jun-02-06 11:24 PM by LaPera
in disguise...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Smile, when you say that varmint!
:hi:
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
13. Oh how I hate Ohio State (elections, that is)
I read the whole article. Manooj did do some homework. He talked to (and cites) a lot of credible analysts, and for the most part treats the facts fairly. Some of his arguments are persuasive, some are decidedly not. Another reasonable person could come to the same conclusion, except they would find convincing the stuff I didn't, and vice versa.

This kind of material is tough to be objective about; I want to just put my thumb on my nose and say Nyah Nyah Neener you effin' pug. :-) But retaining a measure of objectivity is what separates us from religious fundamentalists.

I hope mine is not the only post that doesn't execrate Manooj as a repuke stooge or worse - and then leave what he says unread. There's value in understanding the arguments against our beliefs, even if we reject those arguments. While I'm certain we didn't get the whole story in Ohio, I'm equally certain the conspiracy theorists don't have the whole story either. I find it alarming the way superstition has gotten a chokehold on the most partisan members of both parties. Superstition is what burned the witches and if we're not careful it will burn us, too.

The 2004 election is like one of those electric mosquito traps people put on their patios. It draws those who want blood, and ends up zapping them. I prefer to put the greatest part of my energies toward the elections in 2006 and 2008, where they have a chance of helping change things.

Peace.

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Pale Blue Dot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. I couldn't disagree more strongly
With regard to your last paragraph: We need the "whole story". There is considerable evidence that the election was stolen, and if they did it once, or twice, they can do it again.

It does no good to look forward without a complete understanding of the past.
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NoodleyAppendage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
17. I've got some Mangoo for Manjoo...
I'm detecting a bit of journalistic jealousy on Manjoo's part. Cry baby.

J
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
18. I don't agree with the writers premise about this article.
The writer-Manjoo,focuses on John Kerry when it is evident from reading the Rolling Stone piece that RFK Jr. is trying to gain a broader audience and have them recognize the time has come to address our whole election system. Never again should people be disenfranchised or their votes not counted.
As much as I respect Senator Kerry and want to see him become President one day, this article by RFK Jr is more than just about Kerry, and this is how it should be.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-02-06 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
19. Why did Manjoo only focus on Ohio? He wrote
an article about the military/overseas vote, and judging by RFK's article, the recent GAO report and Manjoo's own article, there was something fishy there:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2658502&mesg_id=2658502


This current article is the same kind of conjecture reporting that the MSM used to hold up as coverage of election fraud. Manjoo and the rest of the media need to spend months investigating these charges and countering them with real research. I can refute any argument sitting behind my keyboard too.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. Check out the letters, Manjoo is on the defensive
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
22. An Ohio lawyer's take
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-03-06 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. this Manjoo character is one of the reasons I did not renew . . .
my Salon subscription . . . if someone links to one of their articles, I just sit through the ad -- with the sound off . . .

when the wingnuts start getting this frazzled about this issue, you know that they're nervous as hell that the truth will come out . . . and that the corporate media will have no choice but to cover it . . .

RFK Jr.'s article is an explosive shot across their bow -- and they're scared shitless . . .
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