Must America hit bottom before Americans wake up?

[Bake]

"Oh, the Republicans would never REALLY overturn Roe v. Wade." Well, that's looking pretty likely now.

"Oh, they'd never eliminate the wall between church and state." It's already happening, and likely to be eroded further, brick by brick.

Must America hit bottom before Americans wake up and smell the cowpie? Is it going to take going back to the days of back-alley abortions, rivers burning from the sludge, skies so polluted that you have to wear a respirator, the return of Jim Crow -- in short, the rollback of every single shred progress the nation has made since the 60s -- before Americans wake up and take back their country?

Or are we too far gone, with our own brand of opiates for the masses and bread & circuses -- Super Bowl, NBA, American Idol, Survivor?

I think it may well require that things get much worse before they'll get any better. Although by then it may be too late. Oh well, it was a great run for a couple of hundred years.

Bake

[MADem]

1. If not bottom, just inches from it, I fear... n/t

[cantstandbush]

25. Haven't we always? n/t

[Lusted4]

56. There is no bottom for the cult members of the New Republican Party n/t

[orwell]

2. The Only Thing...

...that will bring about true "mental regime change" is a shock to the wallet. A financial catastrophe would be worse than a terrorist attack, because it would directly affect everyone. (It is no accident that *'s numbers really fell off the cliff when gas prices took off.)

Everything but financial ruin can be abstracted into political rhetoric. Notice that the New Deal followed the Great Depression.

As long as Americans are generally fat and happy (read endlessly consuming) they will remain dumb (read complacent).

[Lorien]

3. I honestly don't believe Americans will ever "wake up"

They want to be comfortable and "follow the masses".The MSM speaks for the masses and speaks with only one voice,so even if the vast majority of Americans are starving in unheated homes they will still "watch what they say" and comply with every Bushco request-because the MSM will assure them that all is well and getting better. We'll go out with a whimper, because no one will want to risk the discomfort of contradicting the MSM.

[melody]

13. Where are you guys living?

I don't mean to be unkind, but jeez, I live somewhere where we've got 80 year old women who've never been involved in politics showing up at the Democratic headquarters to stuff envelopes and make calls.

Are you not being active? Maybe that's why you need to see others as being complacent?

[Bake]

23. Need to see others as complacent?

I need nothing of the sort. But I'm realistic enough to recognize a pink tutu when I see it -- our Dem leaders bend over time after time, with the excuse of "keeping our powder dry for the next fight."

I see middle America blindly voting for a party that is dominated by its extreme right fringe. I see fundamentalism on the rise in America's churches.

I've BEEN active. And now I'm just sick and damn tired. America as a whole will get the government it deserves.

Bake

[melody]

26. totally disagree

I don't see anyone as complacent. I don't know anyone who isn't infuriated.

Middle America is NOT "voting for a party" -- they were Diebolded by it in 2004. The last election showed a marked change AWAY from the GOP. Fundamentalism is actually on the wane. All of the far-right membership societies have shown a marked decline in the last ten years. Fundamentalist churches are on the decline as well.

[Bake]

29. Really? Is that why all those Fort God churches spring up?

I can speak only regarding Southern Baptists, who have been completely taken over by the extreme right. But I don't see their numbers shrinking. If you can show me solid numbers to the contrary, I'll be thrilled. But I don't see it happening.

What I DO see? In addition to what I said above, the nation is in total retreat in the sciences -- hell, we're having to refight the Scopes Monkey Trial except now they call it I.D. And what does the vast middle do? Switch channels between Survivor and American Idol.

I believe that Diebold et al. is a factor, but not enough of a factor to account for the vast middle of the population that just doesn't give a damn.

Bake

[Imagevision]

35. It will NEVER get any lower then the Busyh administration...

3 more years -- maybe we will get to see that mushroom cloud Rice & Cheney spoke of!!!

[melody]

62. Where I live...

The right-wingnuts used to own my community. The two largest organizations are now in deep financial jeopardy because of a sharp decrease in attendees willing (or able) to hand over bucks.

There has been 17% decrease (Rand Pollard study) in church attendance overall.

I come from a family of southern Baptists and none of them are fundies.

I think things aren't nearly as dark and dire as all that.

[Bake]

30. If you don't know anyone not infuriated

Then you need to get out more.

I don't mean that to be a smart-ass. But seriously, if everyone were as unfuriated as you and I and most of DU are, we wouldn't even be HAVING this conversation.

Most people are asleep. That's how Diebold has been able to swing elections. That's how Bush got re-elected. That's why we're losing SCOTUS.

Bake

[driver8]

39. You are exactly right. The people who have not been paying

attention to what is going on in this country allowed the rethugs and Diebold to steal the election. An 8 million swing in votes??!! Oh yeah, that's legitimate.

Before the election, almost everyone I spoke with hated Bush -- including people that voted for him in 2000.

You will never convince me that John Kerry did not win that election -- Never!!

[melody]

61. Most people? Who are most people?

Obviously, Diebold means people don't let them "swing elections". If "people" did that, we wouldn't need Diebold.

My point is everyone IS infuriated - that was my whole point. No one I know is taking this lying down.

[Lorien]

32. You are from "Somewhere CA" and you claim authority on Middle America?

Even most of my friends in the film industry in SoCal complain about the huge increase in fundies in THEIR industry. I'm originally from Ohio, and the Ohio I knew in the 1970s looked like Berkley CA compared to the nest of Neo-cons that it is today.

[driver8]

40. I work in the film industry and I am amazed at how many union

people support these criminals. I told a young guy the other day, "You are in a union. Do you know that these guys would do anything to destroy unions? Why do you think you have this health plan and a decent salary??"

His reply: "So...there is more to consider than that."

AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!

[melody]

60. When did I claim anything?

My point is no one has authority to make broad proclamations. My inferences about my corner of the country are as valid as his/hers. I'm also from a fairly red community in which the PTL Club used to have their world headquarters. It is hardly as black and white and dire as the initial inference.

[TheFarseer]

49. I think you're wrong

I see so many people that don't like what the republicans are doing, but they believe the democrats are even worse. I think they believe everything would be the same only we would be "killing babies" and "selling out to gays" and handing out Cadillacs to welfare moms. If you live in a blue state, you probably don't realize that is how over half of the people in red states and a large percentage in purple states are thinking right now. On the bright side, I think these people are ready for a strong populist message if one can be provided by an otherwise moderate democrat. The Diebold thing might have happened, I can't say for sure. But you true believers in the Diebold theory are totally discounting this "family values" nonsense that is so overwhelming out here.

[Lorien]

31. Er, I'm very active with my local Dem party

but we only have about 200 active members in a city of over 200,000. We work hard, but the media is in most households 24/7; 200 activists can do little to combat that (even when we do manage to organize large protests, we're lucky if we get half the air time that five counter protesters get).

[melody]

63. Then why do anything? Why don't we all just surrender?

I have clinical depression. A great number of Americans do (particularly among liberals). This kind of defeatism will kill us before the movement ever gets going... which was my point.

[ladjf]

27. We may have become too stupid to survive.

[RaleighNCDUer]

4. If we are returning to the 50s in all those things, will we also be

returning to a 90% corporate income tax? A 49% top personal bracket? A mandatory draft? A responsible press? An economy that allows a single income to provide for a family?

Hello?

'chirp'

'chirp'

[Crunchy Frog]

15. If we're returning to the 50's

my guess is that it will be closer to the 1150's than to the 1950's. We're headed for a new Dark Ages. The people who are ascending to power right now want a country where people can be burned for heresy and witchcraft and children stoned to death for disobeying parents, not a country that looks like "Leave it to Beaver".

[leftstreet]

5. What will our new National Religion be? Anyone know?

:shrug:

[Jackpine Radical]

6. First let me say I continue to fight, and have reasonable hope

that on the local level we can win some significant victories, retake our legislature & become a "bluer" state. However, for the nation and maybe the world as a whole, I really fear that we are headed for the shitter.

What do I mean by "headed for the shitter?"

On a national level, the entrenchment of a theofascist-style government, for which the groundwork is already laid. The Bill of Rights is already gone. Corporate rule is well-established. At best we have a psuedo-democracy in which the fundamental rule is "one dollar, one vote." Perhaps the stock market will continue upward for a while. Perhaps not. I do think there will be a crash in real estate prices & a massive shift in the economy. Regardless of what the market does, the future is bleak for average Americans. The proles, the "useless eaters," are in massive oversupply. There will need to be epidemics to cleanse nation of us.

Internationally, the race is on between environmental degradation, depletion of resources, and WWIII.

Can anything save us? ("Us"=the nation, the species, the biosphere). I don't know. Lacking a faith in the Space Brothers as well as in long-bearded, irascible deities, I'm hard-pressed to envision a mechanism for salvation.

[vptpt]

7. Take away their cell phones

and SUVs and cable. That should get their attention. Those are the only things most Americans really seem to care about anymore.

Oh, and I forgot credit cards. Take those too.

[kenny blankenship]

8. That's usually what it takes...

[Warren Stupidity]

9. It is going to take a catastrophic collapse

on the order of 1929 to turn things around.

That is the bad news. The good news is that it won't be much longer 'till we get there.

[dogday]

10. Something must happen to affect them personally

when it comes to their front door, they will wake up. Let's just hope it is in time!

[Arugula Latte]

57. It's depressing to me that after gas prices started to go down,

Bush's ratings went up a bit. There is a huge chunk of the population that doesn't care about anything other than their own pocket.

[Crankie Avalon]

11. Did the people of Germany need to hit "rock bottom" before THEY woke up?

Oh, right...never mind. :hide:

[Jamison]

17. Yep and so will we.

The Germans didn't really wake up until late 1944 when the allies were heavily bombing their cities, the Soviet Army was rapidly approaching from the east, and the Western Allies were winning back territories gained by Germany. By that time as we all know, it was way too late.

[Crunchy Frog]

12. Yeah, I pretty much think so.

And I think rock bottom is going to look something like full fledged fascism along with complete economic collapse. I'm just hoping that we don't end up triggering a nuclear armageddon while we're there.

[katty]

14. Yup, looks like it America must...d.c. the decaying turd of republic

[Vickers]

16. If we hit rock bottom, it'll be a century or more before we are OK again

There won't be a Marshall Plan for us.

[KG]

18. yes.

to those who whine 'you just want things to get worse before the get better', well, that's the only way REAL change has ever come about.

[Coastie for Truth]

19. Hit Bottom?

Get out your coal miner's helmet and submariner's dolphins, and read Tom FRank's What's the Matter with Kansas? How Conservatives Won the Heart of America - we are going subterranean.

[bullwinkle428]

20. This is exactly what I said on Election night in 2004 (n/t)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

21. They will only get po'd when it happens to them or their families.

n/t

[hookinmouth]

22. revolution

There will be arevolution soon, 'nuff aid.

[GuvWurld]

42. Meme: Non-violent revolution has become necessary.

Read Blueprint For Peaceful Revolution.

[Solly Mack]

24. Selection 2000 was rock bottom - yet the definition of "the bottom"

keeps changing with each new outrage...

It's like people are telling themselves, that was bad...but we'll wait until the next bad thing....then comes the next bad thing, and it's the same lie all over again...wait until the next bad thing. The bad things keep coming and the bottom keeps getting moved lower and lower....

the bottom is so low now it's become the top

I'd posit that Americans are adapting to the bottom...so much so that the bar's shifting rapidly to just to keep up with the rationalizations.

America is a war crime nation. America tortures men, women and children. America overlooks stolen elections. America spies on her own people. America disappears people. America treats her own citizens like enemies of the state.

That's pretty "bottom" to my thinking.

[FlemingsGhost]

28. Yes. We will collectively stare into the abyss.

The weight of our arrogance (and ignorance) will tower from behind. It is then, "We the People" will rise and take their stand. Mind you, the nation will not be revived, it will be reborn ...

Revolution.

[Loge23]

33. more koolaid

There was a glimmer of optimism for change recently when our worse suspicions about the junta were painfully revealed to be true. Some of the recent example? The Katrina debacle, the Plame smearing, the widespread corruption within the occupying party, and – of course, the official crossover from a free society – the government monitoring their own citizens. And that’s just in the last 3 months!! Remember Iraq? “Patriot” Act? Tax cuts for the ultra wealthy? The surplus?

We haven’t lost again, we lost a long time ago. To think that this will all go away and we will go back to the America we still believe in is fantasy now. …and I know, we will all see the follow-up posts from the koolaid drinkers on our side: “We don’t need you if you’re giving up now” “just leave now” (not to be confused with “Love it or leave it”), etc.,etc. How can ever expect meaningful change when about half of this country actually believes that it's OK for the government to spy on us!!??

The facts are quite to me.
Iraq will haunt us for decades.
The Supreme Court will become the official arbiter of the New Right Order.
The Bill of Rights and key points of the Constitution will continue to be ignored or just outright discarded.
Scooter Libby will be the only fallout from the outrageous crime of the Plame outing.
Unions will cease to exist in the U.S. Perhaps we can go to a state-sponsored work program where our children will be categorized from the “All Children Left Behind” act as potential military victims or service employees. Of course, the elite children will be allowed to go on to college.
Protest and dissent WILL BE PUNISHED. Expect this – it’s already being implemented.

It hurts to admit it, but I’m done with the koolaid. This country is already too far gone. The terrorists have won - but the terrorists were our own.

[Pushed To The Left]

34. Sometimes I almost wish something really

bad, such as Roe v. Wade getting overturned, would happen just so people would wake up!!

[Rainscents]

36. I think there three things that is going to wake up people

1)When they have to start taking care of their ill parents and pay for their medical needs.

2)When they lose their jobs and no health care.

3)When Social Security no longer there for them.

[driver8]

41. When the criminals start drafting their loved ones into the service.

Let's hear them cry about supporting the troops, then.

[banana republican]

37. THAT IS USUALLY THE WAY IT WORKS UNLESS

THERE IS AN "INTERVENTION" E.G. THE WHOLE "FAMILY" CONFRONTS THE ADDICT. (E.G. EUROPE, CHINA, JAPAN, ETC.ETC.)

[devilgrrl]

38. Americans have to hit bottom before America wakes up as well...

I would think :shrug:

[lostinacause]

43. My expecation is that once America realizes what kind of policies are

lacking some form of extreme response will happen. "Current trade policies are bad so we will just remove it" or the use of classical wealth transfer mechanisms when there are better methods available.

[The Backlash Cometh]

44. First, I think they know they've run out of capital.

Just last week, Jeb Bush accepted a ruling from the Florida Supreme Court in regards to private school vouchers. It went against the vouchers. He stated that the court was the ultimate decision-maker and that he would abide by the court.

That's a first for these anarchistic Machiavellis. Maybe they realize that people are catching on to their disregard for the checks and balances; and that once the tide turns and the Dems are in power, they are going to need the Dem party to honor the c&b's of our system of they're really going to experience powerlessness.

[salin]

45. while I see the circuses... the bread part is getting thinner and thinner

and looks like the bread for the medicare perscription plan folks just turned into bread crumbs.

[lakeguy]

46. it's the "two cars in the garage" syndrome

until enough people lose the lifestyle they feel they deserve, very little will change.

[Triana]

47. They're too comforatable....

...that's the problem. They'll have to get a LOT more uncomfortable before they'll get off their dead ass and wake up.

[hippiechick]

48. Beyond bottom ...

... it's like a hangover ... waking up and thinking "where'd my car keys go?" but instead it'll be, "where'd my country go?" ... most people are too oblivious when they're ON the slippery slope, they just keep on keepin' on and don't notice until they've sat at the bottom of the mountain for awhile that their ass hurts and what the top used to look like and how far they REALLY fell.

Sigh. It's going to be almost impossible to rebuild what Bush et al have broken. :(

[Jawja]

50. Yes. America will have to hit rock

bottom before waking up and it may be too late. I've been saying that for 5 years now. I agree with your assessment about "bread & circuses" and I believe we are so used to a life of comfort and abundance, that the majority are like the frog in the slowing boiling water.

In the 1930s, the people of Germany accepted Hitler and the Nazis because they were living in terrible economic conditions after WWI and the Depression. They had hit rock bottom. I believe the opposite is true of the U.S. today. The last 2 generations, after their parents and grandparents won WWII and established a booming economy, have lived in comfort and abundance. I believe that as dire straits paved the way for the German people to accept Hitler, gluttony on abundance is the condition paving the way for the American people to accept the "Unitary Executive (a palpable word for fascist dictator)."

Since people in America (until 9/11 and Katrina) do not generally experience the horrors of war at home or famine or extreme poverty, and have short memories, they are more willing to trade an inherited liberty for the satisfaction of sending women to back allies with coathangers or sending gays and lesbians back to the dark closets of yesteryear. The joke is on them, as they have made a pact with the devil because they think that if they win in restricting the freedom of others (women and minorities), they will somehow feel better about themselves. Little do they realize that the devil usually requires payment for services and they may soon find out that worrying over woman having the right to choose or a gay person's right to happiness was irrelevant compared to what WWIII or a collapsed economy will bring. I know that these people are supposed to be a minority, but they were used by the devil to put these thugs in power because the devil promised to "restore GAWD to his rightful throne in America."

All tyrants eventually fall and this litte shit will, too. But if the AMERICAN PEOPLE don't bring him down, then someone else will and the American People will pay the price for their folly.

The frog in the boiling water usually DIES, doesn't it?

[kalibex]

51. Yup. n/t

[lulu]

52. Blaming the left

Many, many will never wake up. The propaganda machine behind the theocratic right wing is systematically and thoroughly blaming the left for the problems engulfing the middle class. My conservative relatives eat it up. Even though my brother can't afford health insurance for his family (he owns his own business), he blames those hedonist liberals for his problems. He hears about the evil liberals in church, on the news, reads it in the newspaper because they live in Oklahoma, where there is no free press, only propaganda.

[leesa]

53. Yes.

[Skittles]

54. they're stealing pensions, trying to erode social security

it's a mess - there is not one damn thing republicans do in the best interest of America.....we are way past the point of utter destruction now - it would take decades to fix just what they have already f***ed up and they're not done by a long shot - I think the American public is STARTING to wake up but I swear it is way, way too late

[Blue Velvet]

55. Wow. Good thread - recommended. You know, the well-expressed thoughts

in the above posts reminded me of a song lyric I haven't thought about in quite some time, written a decade ago but so applicable to the posts I've just read and to the times we're living in today (more than ever). If I recall correctly, it goes (more or less) like this:

The cops were arresting the people in style, and
The cripples were running the miracle mile
For capital gains and the underground youth
Distort the deception and torture the truth

I want you to come with me right now

Capillary faction
Rising revolution

Defenders attack from the shadows of crosses
And the cities turn black as we count up our losses
It's time that we gave some credit to the debtors
'Cause things will get worse before they will get better

Capillary faction
Rising revolution

We'll just sit from on high in our SUV's and watch our nation crumble
We'll just sit safe inside with our DVD's and watch our nation crumble

But I want you to come with me right now
'Cause this is the coup d'etat
This is the coup de grace

Capillary faction


on edit: D'oh! I don't have enough posts to recommend quite yet (anyone know how many it takes?). But, to quote yet another song lyric: "If I could, you know I would..." Keep fighting the good fight, everyone! Peace.

[napi21]

58. Most people don't pay any attention until it's directly affects THEM!

Sure, people say they feel awful that GM & Ford are closing many plants and sending their mfg. out of the Country. They think it's wrong that many employees are losing their pensions, just before they retire. It's terrible that poor people are losing their health care. But UNTIL THEY are personally affected by any of that, they just don't feel any great NEED to make a change.

I think that's human nature. Think about it. Don't you feel the same way about things that don't affect YOU? I'll admit, I think the laws governing the credit card industry are terrible. What the CC companies are doing to people who are least able to deal with increased expenses by raising their interest rates and pushing them into bankruptcy court is WRONG. But I'm not going to run out and protest it, because I pay my balance off every month.

That's why you saw such a hugh response on the "do not call list" when some judge said there was no law making this legal! Millions of people contacted Congress and demanded that they fix it! It was the fastest turnaround Congress has ever done! It was all because THAT issue affected everybody directly!

[spanone]

59. Bush* is ruining this nation in the name of God. We can't sink any lower.