Ties to gay choir cost music director his job

[proud2BlibKansan]

By LYNN FRANEY and HELEN T. GRAY
The Kansas City Star

Having a church music director who also led a gay men’s chorus did not sit well with some parishioners at St. Agnes Catholic Church in Roeland Park.

So they asked the pastor to remove Joe Nadeau from his church post.

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“I’ve done nothing illegal, nothing immoral,” said Nadeau, who takes the national stage soon as musical director for the closing ceremonies in July of the Gay Games in Chicago. “I’ve kept my private life separate from my work at the church.”

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“Kids loved him … and the adults,” said parishioner Molly Corkill. “He was fantastic with the children, and he was so, so kind and he’s so friendly.”

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“What Jesus taught is, you’re supposed to love your neighbor and love God,” Caruso said. “If loving your neighbor means kicking them out of church, that does not express love in my understanding of what love is.”

To reach Lynn Franey, minority affairs reporter, call [phone] or send e-mail to [e-mail] . To reach Helen T. Gray, religion editor, call [phone] or send e-mail to [e-mail] .

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/14691359.htm

[MuseRider]

1. I just got that from

a KEC member in JoCO. The person I contacted before must be out of town and I had not had any success getting a hold of anyone this weekend. I fired off an email to her immediately asking what they were going to do so I should hear back soon. She just sent another email so I know they are getting fired up. I would expect there will be some direction state wide but the real work will come from that chapter. I will update, am leaving now so expect it will be a little while.

[proud2BlibKansan]

2. Thanks so much Muse!

I am in favor of a protest. But we would have to check the laws in that community. BTW, it is in Fairway, not Roeland Park. Most of the suburbs here have draconian laws regarding signs and protests. So we may be opening up a huge can of worms here.

I also think we could counter their leaflets on cars with some leaflets of our own at that church. That is what just incensed me about this - they put his picture on men's underwear ads and put that on windshields!! Talk about a hate campaign!

[MuseRider]

4. Odd, we must be channeling each other

because I was thinking the same thing about those leaflets. We will work within the law certainly but there is much here that can be worked with.

[MuseRider]

3. One more thing before I go

these statements “I’ve done nothing illegal, nothing immoral,” said Nadeau, “I’ve kept my private life separate from my work at the church.” should never NEVER have to be said. His private life should be accepted as much as anyone elses without question. This just encompasses everything that is going wrong in the country as far as Civil Rights go. Grrrrr, I am so angry.

[MuseRider]

5. Arghhhh I HAVE to go

but I just got a response, they are discussing it now and are trying to figure out the best way to deal with it. She promised me she would get back as soon as they had some plans.

GO JoCo KEC! I knew when we were setting this up all last summer that as hard as it was it would be worth it. We have so far had nothing but success so keep your fingers crossed.

For anyone interested http://www.kansasequalitycoalition.org/

[Jade Fox]

6. This is a good article.....

and makes it clear that the majority of parishioners support this man, but the Church fears public condemnation. Good for the Kansas City Star.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. A co-worker belongs to this church

She said the vast majority of parishioners are opposed to the firing. Apparently they have a new hardlined conservative monsignor (she called him an ASS) and he listened to a very vocal minority.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. I'm conflicted about this

I think it is stupid, unChristian and dysfunctional. But I also believe they have the right to hire people who live up to their narrow (and unfortunately bigotted) world view.

However, that said, if this were my parish I'd raise hell. Even the Pope says that gay folks should not be turned away from the church, but should be embraced. If we are going to change minds we have to make our opinions known.

[ruggerson]

8. Question: If a large mainstream church

still held the view that, let's say, blacks were inferior to caucasians and that the black race promoted evil and was the spawn of the devil, would they be within their rights to fire black people at will and throw them out of their church?

I realize, constitutionally, they would be. But would it not raise enormous questions of the secular belief in equality, which is at the very core of why we are a nation versus the freedom of religion?

Furthermore, if gays banded together and formed a worldwide gay "religion" and proclaimed that they had a distinct set of core beliefs about humankind and God, would it not then be unconstitutional to refuse them equal rights, including marriage, since then those rights would be grounded in religion and constitutionally protected?

[TallahasseeGrannie]

9. Well, here's the issue

Race is protected by the Civil Rights Act. Is sexual preference? (I ask because I don't know.)

As to the gay marriage question, that seems like a good plan to me! (And I'm assuming they won't hire Anita Bryant as their choir director!)

[ruggerson]

10. Race is protected by the civil rights act

but that does not trump the first amendment to the constitution.

So, my question stands.

And no, sexual orientation is not yet one of the "classes" protected. Religion, race, ethnic origin and gender are. The right has vehemently fought against adding sexual orientation despite the best efforts of people like Ted Kennedy and Henry Waxman.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

11. Which question stands?

The one about the black church member? Obviously that would be protected by the Civil Right Act?

[ruggerson]

14. Not necessarily

because the civil rights act cannot violate the constitution which has been interpreted to say that the US cannot pass legislation "establishing" church doctrine.

So, if a church fires a black man for being black, because they have core beliefs that black people are evil, then which takes precedence? The civil rights act or the constitutional separation of church and state?

[ruggerson]

15. And, btw, TG

there are about eighteen STATES that have passed non discrimination laws based on sexual orientation. So there is a patchwork of laws, until the Feds eventually step up to the plate and make it nationwide.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

19. Only 18?

Well, it's a start. Culture changes slowly, like the mills of the gods.

[ruggerson]

20. 17 plus DC

Almost all blue states. The entire region of New England plus NJ, MD, CA, WA, NV, NM, HI and three midwestern ones - MN, WI, IL

Not a single state south of the Mason Dixon line.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

21. No surprises there...

but then one thinks of Atlanta...Savannah...Miami...Key West.

It's just a matter of time.

[saltpoint]

26. Hi, ruggerson. An extremely progressive friend of mine visited me

after a mutual friend of ours had been fired in the state of Indiana for being gay.

He had been honest when asked, so he was fired.

My friend, from Berkeley, could not (at first) wrap his head around the idea that that could be legal. There was a strange, long pause between my telling him which states/cities have such protection ordinances, and then he realized the "patchwork" as you call it upthread.

Things tend to drop off a bit when we leave enlightened communities. The blue states are still much more gay-friendly than the red states, especially in employment issues.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

18. Is there any case precedent?

I'm thinking somebody has been stupid enough to do it in the past. Didn't the Mormons used to have rules against black members?

[saltpoint]

25. Just as an aside, after she made such a stink over the gay rights

protection ordinance in Miami, Anita Bryant told the press she received some death threats.

These may have happened for all I know, but were never substantiated.

In any case, Gore Vidal was asked for his take on the alleged death threates to Anita Bryant.

(Paraphrased): "I doubt it. The only people who would be likely to want Anita Bryant dead would be music lovers."

________

I understand your point on the legal aspect, even though I don't know very much about legal stuff. But the ethical impact of exile based on bigotry is awfully hard to accept. And it seems to come at a time when the Catholic Church has the opportunity to get its head out of its bureacratic hind end and extend welcome to all people and to ordain women.

It would be to their strategic and ethical advantage to take the lead here and let the fire-belching fools like Fred Phelps stew in their own hate and ignorance.

[ruggerson]

28. LOL

I saw Gore at an event last year. He was in a wheelchair and had to be helped to the stage, but his mind was still sharp and quick and generous. I still think Burr is one of the greatest bio's of all time.

[saltpoint]

30. Ah. You are a lucky soul if you got to hear Vidal in person.

BURR is great, and I loved LINCOLN and especially JULIAN. Ruggerson! Have you read JULIAN? I loved it to death.

If you slip a copy of JULIAN into Fred Phelps' mailbox, I guarantee you his head will explode. A very assertively pagan novel, full of great scenes and quotable passages. It's any Christo-fascist's nightmare, and not surprisingly, Gore Vidal's the author.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

33. If the Catholic Church would get real

and show compassion, accept and ordain gay men (and women) their numbers would swell beyond belief. But I think maybe they don't care about that.

[saltpoint]

38. I personally know many Catholics who would endorse that, but

the up-top folks have short fuses.

[proud2BlibKansan]

42. My uncle who is a priest basically left the church for that very reason

30 years ago. He is still a priest but is not working for any diocese. He is retired now but helped found a group whose goal is to have women ordained.


http://www.quixote.org/pfe/
Priests for Equality is a movement of women and men throughout the world - laity, religious and clergy - who work for the full participation of women and men in church and society. We are a grass-roots organization committed to creating a culture where sexism and exclusion are behind us and equality and full participation are the order of the day. We challenge sexism in all its forms wherever we may find it and offer an alternative vision that frees and empowers people.

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. From what I understand, his sexuality did not become an issue

until AFTER he was hired. Now if he had been told upfront he can't practice homosexuality and work there, then you have a point. But apparently he worked there for many years and no one said a thing about him being gay until a few RW parishioners made a big deal out of it. The pastor backed him, then the diocese put in a new pastor who agreed with the RWers and canned him.

The thing that bothers me (actually incenses me) is that these RWers made leaflets with pictures of the choir director's head pasted on an ad for men's underwear. And they put the leaflets on car windshields in the church parking lot. How hateful is that?

I would oppose this firing regardless, but the leafletting is what sends me over the edge. And since this church is in my neighborhood, I am ready to fight back!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

34. Oh, that is awful

just awful.

But I know from personal experience a similar situation. My church about 20 years ago had a gay choirmaster/organist. He was "out" to his family and friends but circumspect about it with parishioners. We had a group of fundies in our church at the time (they have since split and formed the Episcopal equivalent to a snake handling congregation) and they got wind of the fact that the man was gay and actually went up into the choir loft and sprinkled holy water to get rid of the demon that had "invaded the church." My husband and I left that church at that point. The choirmaster felt the heat and moved on.

[CornField]

17. Do they? Should all non-profits have that right?

My opinion (and it is only that) is when groups/organizations begin taking in taxpayer money, the group should come under the scrutiny and be subject to the same laws, as all the other groups. Bush's Faith Based Initiative has funneled billions upon billions into the "Christian" faith. There should be some accountability there.

Finally, if the Federal government can place stipulations on highway dollars, education dollars, economic development dollars, then they can sure as I'm sitting here, place stipulations on faith-based dollars. To not do so provides groups of faith an upper hand in relation to other non-profit who compete for the same funding.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

39. But do we know if this group

accepted money? I agree with you that once you take federal money you are in a whole different category.

However, I'm also a little confused. Could the government demand, for example, that a church hire for their choirmaster a Muslim who was qualified instead of someone of their own faith? Or is that comparing apples and oranges?

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. I doubt they get any federal funding

It is in an upper middle class community and if their budget is anything like my mom's church right down the street, they don't need any federal funding.

[CornField]

13. Ba-da-bump-bump-bump... another one bites the dust

I need to write a letter to Mr. Nadeau. He has unfortunately joined a group I've been a part of since 1995: Those who were 'encouraged' to leave their church posts (soon to be 'encouraged' to leave their congregation).

In the past 10+ years, I have the opportunity to meet many others, like myself, who have found their "Christian" brothers and sisters to be anything but Christ like. If those cast aside are the ones who will inhabit hell, then I'll be in great company... matter of fact, I'm rather looking forward to it. ;)

[xchrom]

22. i contacted them -- and let them know

this was quickly making it's way around the country and exactly what people were saying.

and i made it abundantly clear vis va vie evidence that not all were gay.

few things have been more infuriating than this.

a job is a job -- and workers if they are basic upstanding joes and joettes whose private lives do not infringe on their job -- should not be fired.

let alone the bigotry surrounding gay folk is irrational -- crazy.

[Cameron27]

23. Who did you contact ?

I'm not gay, but I'm a US citizen, and this simply cannot stand. I don't have a lot of money but I do have a voice.

[xchrom]

32. this is the one i tried

http://www.archkck.org/Chancery/chancery.asp

good luck and thank you.

[Cameron27]

37. Thanks for the link

I’ll email the Chancellor’s office tonight. I'm looking forward to it.

Quickly… I was innocently drinking my coffee and reading the Huffington Post yesterday, when I came across this article about ex-gays and conservatives pushing the gay conversion thing. I thought that this derelict crackpot theory was dead. I was wrong. Anyway, here’s the link if you haven’t read it yet.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2006/05/28/exgays-and-conservativ_n_21770.html

[Cameron27]

47. chancery, chancery

chancery, chancery (just noticed the chancellor in above post and couldn't edit)

[Cameron27]

48. chancery, chancery

Just came back yet again for the link and noticed chancellor in my post, couldn't edit

[saltpoint]

24. Proud2Blib, thank you for posting this with the info, especially with

the contact info.

I will proceed with the letters to express not only support for somebody who by all counts was doing a hell of a good job as a Music Director in the parish, but also to suggest that the bigotry of a few should not deprive the parish of the joy and affirmation of many.

Also it pisses me off when talented people are bullied. Nadeau didn't pick any fight. From what I understand, he is a talented musician who happens to be Catholic who happens to be gay. Everything I've seen so far in the STAR and in this new article suggest that he is a lot more representative of the tenets of Jesus' ministry than every single one of the philistine yahoos and bullies who shoved him out the door.

I'm not a Christian, but I have no problem with people who are inspired by the inclusion message in Jesus's ministry. A small group of assholes decided to throw stones at an innocent person in this Nadeau case, and I hope the karmic boommerang kabongs them in the ass real soon.

Thanks for the post, and wow, you got some great respones to the thread here too from many others.

[proud2BlibKansan]

29. Thanks Crusoe

I will keep you posted.

[Cha]

27. This is the crux of

the matter right here and this is why the ones who got Joe Nadeau fired have no right to call themselves "Christians".

"What Jesus taught is, you’re supposed to love your neighbor and love God,” Caruso said. “If loving your neighbor means kicking them out of church, that does not express love in my understanding of what love is."

[rocktivity]

31. Unless he himself is gay

they don't have a leg to stand on--if you pardon the expression.

:headbang:
rocknation

[ComerPerro]

35. Child-molesting priests are ok with the Catholics. But this isnt?

I guess I shouldn't be suprised.

[xchrom]

40. the catholic churches point is that lgbtq folk are likely

to be pedophiles -- and they are going to prove it.

it's a cynical move to redirect attention away from the priest thing.

[proud2BlibKansan]

44. But don't the FACTS show that pedophiles are more likely to be hetero?

[xchrom]

50. oh absolutely -- but that won't stop them from

manipulating their message.

if they can get the public to look at gay people in the light they desire -- then the pedophilia that has gone on for so long is the fault of gay people and not the church.

they need gay people to escape from their condemned state.

[proud2BlibKansan]

43. That was my first thought as well

This just infuriates me beyond words.

Hey if we organize a protest, you want in? :evilgrin:

[ComerPerro]

45. You know I don't "do" protests

[proud2BlibKansan]

46. It wouldn't hurt you one little bit to "do" a protest

Builds character, son. :)

[leesa]

36. How Christian of them!!

[TexasLawyer]

49. "Judge not, lest ye be judged"

I think I read that somewhere.