There is NO American flag flying at my house this weekend.

[Redstone]

I put it away the day we invaded Iraq, and I will not bring it back out until the last American soldier arrives home.

Redstone

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. Me too. Have not flown one since March 2003

and don't plan to anytime soon.

[OKDem08]

2. I'm flying my peace flag

[johnfunk]

22. The new Americam Falg courtesy adbusters.org

[donheld]

105. That flag as too few Oil Companies

And the one it has is Dutch. It needs to have Exxon/Mobil and Chevron.

[happydreams]

23. This is an excellent alternative. I'm going to get me one of these.

[dysfunctional press]

152. me too.

i refuse to fly the flag of a fascist regime.

[Texasgal]

3. How sad...

I am flying mine in remembrance of my grandfather who served in WW1 and WW2.

AND

For all of our service men and women who have served or are currently serving.

I'm sorry, I just find that sad.

[Postman]

4. Is it made in America or China?

or some other country?

[Texasgal]

6. I don't care where it was made.

The flag is a SYMBOL.

[Postman]

10. That ain't good enough lady...

You SHOULD care where it was made.

Americans didn't die so their jobs could be shipped overseas.

[Texasgal]

14. Okay...so what kind of car do you drive?

What kind of shoes do you wear?

What kind of internet tech support do you have?

Unfortunately, so many things are made outside of the US now days.

I agree that Americans didn't die so that their jobs could be shipped overseas.

So....

I am FLYING my flag to show respect and pride for my fellow AMERICANS!

[Obamanaut]

28. You are correct - many things are made outside of the US today,

but none of them are considered to be "symbols", are they? I think the "symbol" of the US and flown in the US should be made in the US - not an import like a pair of shoes or a tv.

[Texasgal]

30. To be quite honest with you

I haven't even looked at my flag to see where it was made.

I will do that.

[The Stranger]

119. So you equate your car with what is supposed to symbolize freedom.

The fact that the flag was possibly made in China seems to contain worlds of meaning and a delicious irony that has been completely lost upon you. Now THAT truly is sad.

[Fierce]

143. The conversation has moved on quite a bit...

...but you ask these questions like the answer can't be "something made in America" for each one. For me, it is. It's not hard if you look. So many people just throw up their hands and say, "Well, you just can't find anything made in America anymore!" Which is bullshit.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

88. One of my friends signed me up to get army info as a joke.

The free boonie hat is made in China.

[blonndee]

97. An ex-AF friend of mine signed up for the free t-shirt they were hawking

LOL

[Redstone]

5. Be that as it may. I have the greatest respect for our soldiers, but I

truly resent the fact that our government is throwing their precious lives away...for nothing.

I've seen it before, and I won't support it not.

Redstone

[Texasgal]

7. Hey.. I agree with you.

I agree that our current situation is based on lies and bullshit.

BUT

Memorial Day is not condoning our government.

I am MEMORIALIZING military personnel. PERIOD.

[Redstone]

24. I am as well. But I'll memorialize them as the people they were,

not as the tools of evil administrations that they were.

Let me tell you why I'm in this kind of mood tonight, and this is not something I advertise: I was in Viet Nam, being wounded in combat three times, in 1972.

What else happened in 1972, did we just find out? That was the year that Henry Fucking Kissinger sold all of our sacrifices and pain and blood to the fucking Chinese! Told them, "All you have do do is wait a few years to make me look good, and you can have South Viet Nam?

You want me to fly a flag after reading about that? I still set off metal detectors, and last week, there were five fucking days when I couldn't walk. Thirty-four years later.

And there's a Wall in Washington with the names of fifty-three thousand Americans whose lives were given away for politics by their government. For nothing.

Sorry, but no. Just fucking no. No flag for me.

Redstone

[Texasgal]

29. Redstone..

Thank you for your service.

I am sorry that you are feeling angry. I am angry too.

You have the right not to fly your flag. You have stated your reasoning, that's fine.

I still find it sad.

My grandfather raised a family of 9 on a a military salary. He fought in two very serious wars. He still has sharpnel in his foot from WW2 that bothers him on occasion. He also does not agree that we should be in Iraq right now.

I am flying my flag to show my support to Military personnel past and present. So is my Grandfather.

That is all.

[Redstone]

32. Hey, tg, NONE of that was an attack on you or your opinion.

I was just explaining my position. Not, believe me, telling anyone else what to do or not. You know I don't do that.

I do, as always, respect your opinion, whether it matches mine or not. Your stance on this issue is every bit as valid as anyone else's, including mine.

Just remember that.

Redstone

[stevedeshazer]

62. I respect that

I see where you're coming from, and I have no argument with you there.

I'll fly my flag, but keep in mind when I do, it is in honor of all who fought regardless of the cause.

I fly it for guys like you.

Peace.

[Redstone]

64. Then I'll salute your flag as I pass by it. With respect.

Redstone

[Selatius]

8. The flag also represents the right not to fly the flag if one deems it

Your grandfather fought not for the flag but the freedoms that flag represents, which includes the right not to fly the flag or--dare I say--even to burn the flag.

[Texasgal]

11. You are correct.

I CHOOSE to fly it in memorandum.

[Selatius]

12. Now THAT is your right that I'd be willing to fight for n/t

[name not needed]

51. Uhh...

mem·o·ran·dum ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mm-rndm)
n. pl. me·mo·ran·dums or me·mo·ran·da (-d)
A short note written as a reminder.
A written record or communication, as in a business office.
Law. A short written statement outlining the terms of an agreement, transaction, or contract.
A business statement made by a consignor about a shipment of goods that may be returned.
A brief, unsigned diplomatic communication.

[CanuckAmok]

103. I wish there was a way for me to remember to put my flag out.

like a post-it, or some sort of visual reminder.

[Blue-Jay]

115. Did you get that thing I sent ya?

[CanuckAmok]

149. what thing was that?

Is it something I was supposed to remember? Because Remembering Day isn't until November.

Wow, that was so unintentionally Dr. Seuss!

[greatauntoftriplets]

117. Perhaps you could leave yourself a voicemail reminder...

Or email yourself?

:shrug:

[Donkeykick]

31. I don't blame you.

I will too! Its not those peoples fault that Dubya is screwing things up. Those soldiers made things happen over there--not Dubya or Rummy!

God Bless all of our Veterans and soldiers in harms way right now. May you return safely!:patriot:

[jonnyblitz]

33. hey, I am a VET and I wouldn't be caught dead flying one.

I sadly assume everybody who flies a flag these days is a republican even though i know that's not true. :

I associate the flag with the govt and NOT Vets but that is just me..:shrug:

[Texasgal]

40. But Johnny..

The flag dose not represent the government.

The flag represents our country... the people.

Why the harm in flying it to recognize my brothers and sisters?

I am literally confused here. Why pick Memorial day to make a statement? Your fellow Americans have died... whether or not they believe in the past or present war. They made sacrifices.

Why is this so bad?

[jonnyblitz]

87. well, not all of us think like you, I guess

but at least you will have fun linking this thread to that other site so you and your right wing friends can gasp in horror at how patriotically incorrect we DUmmies are.

oh yeah, I often used to be petty officer in charge of raising and lowering the flag for revielle and taps on my duty days on my navy ship(s) so don't even try any of this "disrespect to my brothers and sisters" crap, please.

[Texasgal]

91. Stop whining.

I am discussing this... I am not "making fun" of anyone.

Don't be so sensitive.

[jonnyblitz]

96. LMFAO!!!

i think you are doing some SERIOUS projecting here. I am not the one posting links to Redstones threads to other sites all upset!! who is WHINING? oh i forget, it's "discussing" when you do it...

http://www.neutralunderground.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3651

[Lars39]

110. Thanks for posting that.

Explains a lot.

[Redstone]

124. And, JB, you have a perspective that few of us have.

So, to me at least, your opinion counts for an awful lot.

Redstone

[Redstone]

65. JB, you have particular reason for your opinion, and people should

listen to you.

Hope to see you this year. It's been too long.

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

122. Well, Friday we buried my FIL with full military honors

for his service during WWII. We buried my dad two years ago with full military honors for his service in WWII and Korea.

I have my dad's flag. My SIL has my FIL's. To me, they symbolize the sacrifices that are made in the name of freedom, not what Bushco has done to this country.

I am not going to let the repiglicans steal my flag the way they did my Christ.


And, thank you for your service, jonnyblitz. I appreciate it and you.

[Lars39]

129. My condolances, Midlodemocrat.

We seem to be losing so many here lately.

[PublicRadioVet]

81. I am with Texasgal

Flying the flag on Memorial Day can be done for all the right reasons. People have lost perspective if they think they have to put the flag away out of shame, or hate. Don't let it eat you alive. Fly that flag with pride.

[LWolf]

113. I have never flown a flag.

A U.S. flag, that is. I have some seasonal flags and banners. I can't think of a reason why I would ever fly the U.S. flag. I don't feel sad about it. Still, I remember all those, including my family members, who've served in the U.S. military, and those who gave their lives doing so. Were they sacrificing for the piece of silk, or for the government, or for the people, or....? Whether or not I agree with their sacrifice, I still honor them for it by remembering them. I don't need the piece of silk to remember them.

I also, on "memorial" day, remember all those people whose lives gave something to me that I've carried forward with me, having nothing whatsoever to do with the military. I remember my grandma for teaching me the meaning of unconditional love. I remember teachers who opened doors. I remember those who understood that true solutions do not come from military solutions. I remember those leaders most of all; those who honored people's lives by refusing to spend them.

It's not a sad day for me. It's a quiet day of contemplation and remembrance, of thanks. I hope the lack of a piece of silk at my end doesn't make you sad. I hope the reality of remembrance is more valuable than the flaunting of any particular symbol.

[Lars39]

116. Good post.

:thumbsup:

[The Stranger]

118. Perhaps you should find it angry, not sad.

People are angry that their flag has been hijacked by a blood-lusting, torturing and hate-filled cabal who spit on the graves of World War I and World War II veterans.

This same group doesn't give a fuck about the troops currently serving, and wouldn't dare let their precious, privileged, rich, White children go serve with those troops.

So wake up.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

148. MEMORIAL DAY is NOT VETERAN'S DAY!

I am a veteran. I am not dead.

Dammit.

Stop confusing the two.

[Union Thug]

9. No flag here. But I never display a flag anyway.

[derby378]

13. With all due respect, are you going to let the enemy take YOUR flag?

I'll fly the American flag whenever I damn well please. My father-in-law suffered in Bataan for it. The least I can do to show my appreciation for him is to fly it.

[Redstone]

25. See #24 above. I have my reasons.

Redstone

[Pastiche423]

15. My small flag is in the same place and position

as it has been since September 12, 2001 - upside down on the door of my apartment.

[treestar]

16. No, don't let the *s hijack it

Or fly the thirteen star one.

[derby378]

17. My point exactly!

I flew a big-ass American flag at Camp Casey last year, right in the face of the FReepers who protested us.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. Don't have one. Don't want one.

"Patriotism is the most foolish of passions, and the passion of fools." - Schopenhauer

[zippy890]

50. good quote-

I don't have a flag either.

I think our country is too obsessed with the flag.

[bdamomma]

108. too obsessed with nationalism

to cover up their emergence of fascism.

[Iowa]

67. Agreed...

I have never owned a flag and never will.

Although I have never subscribed to nationalism as a matter of principle, in recent years the flag has been co-opted by the Bushbots and fundies and has come to symbolize a blind allegiance to a mindset that I have come to despise. While I can recognize that not everyone who displays the flag adheres to that mindset, I suspect that there is an underlying presumption on the part of many Bushites that that is the case. I prefer not to provide them with even the tiny comfort of believing that they may have yet one more ally in their pathetic, mindless cause. In other words, as far as symbols go, I choose not to display a symbol that has come to have mixed meanings - some of which I find thoroughly repugnant.

Just my opinion. Obviously others will see it differently.

[Mr_Spock]

73. I've never seriously considered flying a flag

I am not capable of feeling patriotic for the most part - I agree with that quote in your post and others from our founding fathers.

All the power to those who do fly it though - it's just not my thing.

[datasuspect]

141. 10 roger on that

all this maudlin emotional vomit is unnerving.

[diamondsndust]

19. I have one flying upside down on my front porch and one

flying upside down attached to the antenna on my FORD truck!

Our Nation is in distress.. fly your flag upside down!

[Texasgal]

20. No thank you.

I will fly mine as it is supposed to be flown.

I am glad though, that you have that right! And I will defend that right to the death.

I just chose a different route.

[Pastiche423]

136. When a country is in distress

their flag is supposed to be flown upside down.

THE FLAG CODE
Title 36, U.S.C., Chapter 10
As amended by P.L. 344, 94th Congress
Approved July 7, 1976

[pooja]

21. Unfortunately, no one will really notice what you do.

On this great Memorial weekend, Americans are more consumed wih their b-bcues, vacations, kids sporting events, and weddings. So, if you fly it or not, no one will really notice.

[Kenergy]

42. Personal flag story:

For the past year, the only flags I've seen flown in my neighborhood have been the
Confederate Naval flag and Texas State flags...
(yep, I'm surrounded by freepers)
So, last weekend I pulled out my Betsy Ross version of the flag (that's the one
with the 13 stars in a circle) and guess what?
On the Monday after, I noticed 2 of my neighbors were flying the Stars and Stripes!
And they're flying them today!
(I may have started a revolution :-)

My point here is this:

I agree with Texasgal...the flag is a symbol and that flag represents freedom.
I don't agree with war, as it symbolizes a failure to make peace.
But a lot of people have gotten their shit blown away defending your and my right to
speak our minds.
Some of you choose not to fly the flag. That's fine.
Some of you choose to fly it upside down. That's fine.
Some of you choose to burn it in protest. That's fine.
Some of you disagree with what the flag represents. That's fine.

But some of us choose to fly it because WE BELIEVE IN FREEDOM, and we will not give
up on promoting the concept.

Memorial Day is the day that we say THANK YOU to the people that made the ultimate
sacrifice, believing in that concept.

I'm sure all of you will agree that this country is in pretty bad shape today,
but fly that flag this weekend, and tell people why you're flying it.
Don't give up on the concept!

[Texasgal]

44. Very well put.

I refuse to dishonor my Grandfathers service by not flying the flag on the day it is DESIGNATED for.

Thank you.

[roody]

130. Since I was born in 1953, no one has

had their shit blown away for my freedom. The democratically elected presidents in Iran, Guatemala, Chile, Panama, etc, whom the USA disposed of were no threat to my freedom. The Vietnamese, Grenedians, Panamanians, Iraqis, etc, etc, have been no threat to my freedom. Now BushCo, they may be a threat to my freedom.

[Kenergy]

138. point taken n/t

[Kenergy]

54. Yes, unfortunately there's a lot of truth in your post

There are too many people in this country that have taken their freedoms for granted.
They'd rather keep up with sports, etc. than to keep up with their rights being taken away
by this criminal administration.

[bdamomma]

109. very true

many people have taken their freedoms for granted, we are all feeling and seeing what happens when our own enemy within this country takes it over, we just have to realize when are we going to take back our country from this illegal and corrupt group of thugs. There are more of us than them.

[jarnocan]

26. Our democracy is in distress.

Our soldiers as well as our president take an oath to uphold and defend our Constitution. Our soldiers shed blood for it, they and their families shed tears, while the Bush regime pisses on it.
We should all care enough about our freedom, our democracy, our people and our world, to do what we can to protect and preserve them.
I have mixed feelings about our flag- I guess I feel like I should fly it upsaide down, not at all, or or at least place an impeach Bush sign next to it.

[debbierlus]

27. My flag story began the day after the election, 2004:

The day after the 2004 election dawned gloomy, SEVERELY windy, and grey. I found my flag that I had left outside in the bustle of the previous day's activities sopping on the ground wet. It was THE most depressing thing and it fit perfectly of what had just happened to the country (a drowning American flag in a puddle as the wind ROARED around my ears). I felt pure defeat at that moment.

The wooden flag pole had broke with the weight of the water that drenched the flag during the night.

I picked up the destroyed flag, and the broken pole. I wrung the water out of the flag, pulled the broken stick out of my flag holder and replaced it with the fragment of the broken pole that the water-logged flag was attached to...

The broken flag has been there since that day. It stays out in rain, snow. It is tattered and worn.

I know that isn't 'proper' flag etiquette. But, the flag is a symbol to me now of what is happening to this country. A failed democracy run now by corporations.

My hope is that we will weather this horrible time, and that someday this flag will be a symbol of how our country weathered the worst president in history and still survived. This flag is enduring despite the extremes that it has been through. I hope I can put it away one day when these dark times have past. I will give it to my daughter and tell her about what the flag means, and I hope it will get passed down.

IF we make it through.

[Redstone]

34. That was a damned good post.

Redstone

[AuntPatsy]

84. No words.

[lonestarnot]

35. Sorry, mine is flying.

[Redstone]

38. As well it should, if that's what you think is best. America is a land of

opinion, each as valid as another.

Redstone

[jody]

36. My flag is flying. n;t

[proud2BlibKansan]

37. Me too

My flag was on my dad's casket. I refuse to dishonor his service and his memory by flying this flag while we illegally occupy a foreign country.

[Spangle]

39. NOT the PONT of today. Sorry buddy, don't agree with you.

Today is about all those who died for our country or in our countrys military. It's about the ones who actually had to see gunfire.. not Set in DC and never see it.

It's about my ancesters who fought back in the REV WAR. All all those in between. It's about those that have served and NEVER came home. It's about those who were lucky to come home, and delt with the lingering memorys of the war.

Today isn't about the government. It's about those who put their lives on the line. Who put their lives on the line for a cause, for a government they believed in.

It's not about how the government treated our military dishonorably. How they have broken promises to those that served. Or how they broke the trust, and sent them to serve for unjustly causes.

There WAS a difference from the Protests of the Vietname WAr and the wrongness of turning our backs on our soldiers returning home. ONE was honorable.. the other was dishonorable.

The support shown to day is ALL about showing support for the MILITARY and not the GOVERNMENT. WE have promised to HONOR them today. WE shouldn't be as dishonorable as our Government and forget to show them honor.

I understand not flying the flag. I also understand flying it up side down. But TODAY was the day to hang it. It would have had more meaning and more point. I honor those who fought bravely. No matter who the government is. I will STILL protest the Government and their nasty war. ButI WILL take the time to honor those who fought bravely.

[Texasgal]

41. Best post on this thread.

Thank you.

[Redstone]

46. And I respect your opinion.

Redstone

[Spangle]

56. And I respect yours.

And i'm glad we live in a place AND be part of the same group..and not have the exact same opinions 100%.

[Redstone]

59. That's what America is supposed to be, yes?

Redstone

[Spangle]

71. Yep!

By sharing opinions, we all grow. By expecting everyone to 'agree' and getting pissed off because they don't (like some groups) then we discourage different thoughts. Thoughts which might or might not be better.

While I might not like how everyone around here acts when they disagree with each other. I'm glad to see that they feel that it is ok to express an different opinion. That they are not afraid of being kicked off the baord, or out of the group.

Kinda different in other countrys. Kinda different then the 'other side' group. Gota walk 'lock step' there. Gota toe the party line. hence, their supporting groups react the same way. EIther your with them, or against them.

My comments were not against you. It was just a different view point. And you seem to have taken it that way. Same side, same goal, just doing our best as we can.

[Redstone]

125. Yes, indeed. Very well said. This is what the "American Way" is

supposed to be, yes?

Redstone

[AuntPatsy]

And I respect both of you.....

[AuntPatsy]

85. And I respect both of you.....

[depakid]

98. Today was also the anniversary of the Removal Act

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal_Act

Which is (or should be) a source of great shame to EVERY American.

I'd sooner BURN the flag today than fly it- particularly in light of what Americans have allowed themselves to become over the past 12 years or so.

Flying it now seems very vain- and a dishonor to all their memories.

[PublicRadioVet]

128. Great post, Spangle!

Sums up a lot of how I feel, too. Thanks for this.

[NanceGreggs]

43. Mu husband I (both Americans) live in Toronto ...

On the morning of September 11th, without a word exchanged, we got out our flag and put it on the front porch. It's enormous, it covered the whole porch, and we left it there.

We became known in the neighbourhood as the 'house with the flag', because there it stayed, day-in, day-out.

On the night Bush announced the commencement of "Shock & Awe", again without a word, my husband and I went out and took down the flag. It has not been displayed since.

I wrote a piece for DU a few months ago, entitled "REMEMBER WHEN ...", the first line of which was:

"REMEMBER WHEN you displayed your flag on your front porch on the 4th of July, and didn't worry that someone might mistake it for support of a corrupt president and his administration?"

That's where the line came from, personal experience. And a loathing to think that anyone might misconstrue my love for my country as standing behind the things currently being done in my country's name.

It's a VERY SAD DAY when an American is ashamed of their own flag, and what it has come to represent ...

[Texasgal]

45. I will not let the RIGHT high jack MY FLAG!

I am NOT ASHAMED of what MY FLAG REPRESENTS!

I support our military personnel past and present.

I will not make a political statement on the day that we recognize them.

[Redstone]

47. tg, did you read your PM?

Redstone

[Texasgal]

48. I just replied...

Please check. :)

[Redstone]

49. I got it. Thank you again.

Redstone

[NanceGreggs]

68. We have a right to see things differently, and for different reasons

And you and I see this one differently.

It's not a matter of the RIGHT hijacking my flag. It's a matter of what it presently has come to represent to people thanks to this president, and this administration.

I will proudly raise my flag again the day there is a man at the helm of the country it represents who isn't waging war on innocent people, who isn't torturing, maiming and killing others in my country's name, who isn't seen by the rest of the world as a liar who will do anything for money and power.

My flag is safely tucked away until that day comes. And for the sake of my country, it can't come soon enough.

[Texasgal]

70. I cannot argue with you on your point.

I realize why you feel this way.

I am NOT happy either, but I will continue to support and respect my brothers and sisters past and present.

I do not understand, why the flag represents the current administration to you. But that is your right as an American and I have no right to tell you that you cannot.

I will say.. that it is very sad... however, and that is not a dig on you... I am just simply stating that it is sad that we have reached this point, as Americans.

I just do not believe in using tomorrow as a day to protest. My grandfather deserves better.

[NanceGreggs]

80. I agree with tomorrow not being a day of protest.

And don't think for a minute that I am not behind the military one hundred percent. They only have to fight this war - they didn't start it.

I may have felt differently about displaying the flag if I was living in the States. Back home, Americans realize that neighbours disagree with neighbours about this war, this administration, etc. And as a result, displaying the flag is a more 'neutral' thing, if I can put it that way. It is understood that it means different things to different people.

But living in another country (and in the most multi-culturally diverse city in the world), way more people associate the US flag right now with Abu Ghraib, oppression, illegal occupation -- and, thanks to the scandals that are on the news every night -- a government that is as corrupt as it is money-hungry and debased.

When I first moved to Canada, people said, "Why on earth would you want to leave the United States to come and live here?"

For the past few years, people say, "Aren't you glad you're out of there?"

I am not ashamed of my fellow citizens, and never will be. I think that by and large, Americans are the best people on the planet (okay, VERY biased there!)

But I am deeply ashamed of my country's world image right now, an image of death and destruction that is personified by BushCo. And unfortunately, the flag has become a symbol of that corruption the world over.

It won't always be so. And when my flag again represents the TRUE American spirit of generosity of heart and spirit, it will be displayed proudly on my front porch.

Good God, may that day come soon.

[Texasgal]

89. But do you understand...

That the flag represents the people.

I think we are getting confused here.

Memorial day is to memorialize the AMERICANS who have served.

It has nothing to do with Iraq, It has nothing to do with Bush.

It has EVERYTHING to do with people who served, for our country.

I have no idea why people cannot grasp this very simple concept.

Don't fly your flag, that's YOUR choice. I will say that you are personally dishonoring my grand father, and my brother and nephew who are currently in Iraq.

But really... thank you for making a statement. :eyes:

[NanceGreggs]

94. Ideally, the flag SHOULD represent the people ...

... but unfortunately, it no longer does in too many places around the world.

I can tell you that years ago, when I put my flag out on Memorial Day, the 4th of July -- whatever -- people looked at it and thought, "Well, that's a proud American."

If I put it up today, people would think (wrongly) that I was a proud supporter of what my country is doing right now in Iraq, and elsewhere.

Please understand that perception is very different inside the US, and outside of it. When I came here, Canadians equated being American with different things than they do now. It meant being part of the biggest power on the face of the earth - not just militarily, but the US was looked to as having the best educational system, the best standard of living, the best cities, the best museums -- and especially the best TV shows, musicians and movies!

Since Bush, that perception has changed. The US is now equated with being arrogant, power-hungry, greedy; a country that preys on its own poor to enhance the wealthy, that plows down any dissention, any obstacle that stands betweeen it and MONEY and POWER.

Very sadly, that is what the flag now represents to people here, and I'm sure in other countries around the world.

It's not just a matter of what I may think when I put up my flag - it's a matter of the perception of others. And I KNOW what that perception will be.

It's not a holiday here tomorrow, and I have to go to work. I can't put my flag up and stand on the porch and declare to every passerby, "Oh, by the way, THIS represents my fellow citizens and NOT what my country is doing in the Middle East right now."

I, too, have family members who have served proudly. My father was a WWII vet, as were my uncles. And my cousins and most of my schoolmates are Viet Nam vets -- those who came home, that is. I lost many of my childhood friends in Nam.

But I will not raise a flag that I know will be perceived as support for what my country is engaged in right now. And that is, make no mistake, what displaying a US flag would mean to too many of my neighbours.

I'm not saying it's right - I'm just saying that unfortunately, that is the way it is.

[Telly Savalas]

66. Ah, you gotta bust it out for the World Cup

Maybe put a giant sign next to it saying "Impeach Bush".

[NanceGreggs]

69. NOT even for the World Cup!

Now, if Bush were to resign or be driven out of office -- THAT'S the day!

[fooj]

95. Nance...

I printed a copy of "Remember When"...that was quite a moving piece. Thank you. :hi:

[NanceGreggs]

100. Thanks, fooj! n/t

[Lochloosa]

52. You got the Fifth rec. from me Redstone,

[Redstone]

53. Thank you. I hope that people read ALL that I said, so they understand

my perspective, which is not that of the 101st Freeper Fighting Commandos.

I've been there.

Redstone

[Lochloosa]

55. I have and I do.

[Redstone]

57. I appreciate that. Thank you.

Redstone

[Lochloosa]

61. And...just for you...KICK

[stevedeshazer]

58. It's our flag. Fly it. If you don't, the Republican Corporatists win.

I'm flying it.

Fly it upside-down if that helps. But, fly it.

I'm sick of Republicans stealing our flag. Fuck them.

I love my country, and I'll be goddamned if I let a bunch of chickenhawks steal what my dad and his uncle fought for.

You are just flat wrong.

[Redstone]

60. Your opinion. And it's OK, but it doesn't invalidate mine.

See #24.

Redstone

[AuntPatsy]

86. No he's not wrong, he has his reasons and you should respect them

I have had mine up since day one and will not take it down, like you, I feel like this is my flag too and I will not let those who disrepect it's true meaning, those now in control, to rob me of this right, but I also respect all those with the reasons they have for not, after all, it's a symbol nothing more, the real hero's are not flags but people.

[Redstone]

144. And I'm a "big bitch," too? And this is how you "trash me?"

And it's "always fun for you?"

So tell me, Mister "because I said so," what is it that gives you the moral right to say these things? How many times have you been wounded in combat?

Redstone

[Redstone]

150. I owe "Steve_DeShazer" a public apology for the above post.

The comments from another board that I quoted above were not his.

I am sorry for attacking him for something he didn't say.

But I'm not going to ask the mods to delete the above post, because I hope that whoever DID make that comment reads it.

Whoever you are, if "it's always fun to trash me" as you claim, why not do it to my face instead of behind my back? Oh, I forgot, that's not how cowards do things.

Redstone

[stevedeshazer]

154. No problem.

Emotions run high at times like these.

We're on the same side. :thumbsup:

[Redstone]

155. That we are. I appreciate the gracious reply.

I imagine you read the message on "neutralunderground," and understood why I got so angry. It really annoys me when I see people being not only cowards, but liars as well.

We ever meet, the beer's on me.

Redstone

[stevedeshazer]

156. I hope we do.

:toast:

[AndyTiedye]

63. I Fly This One

[Bouncy Ball]

72. We've kinda gone the other direction.

My vet husband looked at the flag folded up neatly in our home office the other day and said "Fuck it, I'm not letting bush and all his cronies keep me from flying MY flag."

And he put it out. Probably for the first time in four years or so.

[Texasgal]

74. That's GREAT!

Thank you for posting!

[Bouncy Ball]

76. Well, there IS a fringe benefit.

All our neighbors know we're liberals and hate bush. So they see the flag flying and it confuses them (because we're supposed to "hate America" and all). Hee. And it's a GINORMOUS one, too. Attached to a pole above our garage.

AND we do the right thing and take it down at night, because there's no light on it.

Edited to add, I say if redstone doesn't want to fly his, then so be it. Everyone has that choice. Totally.

[ernstbass]

120. My thoughts exactly

Everyone in my neighborhood knows I hate Bush based on my bumper stickers alone and Dem yard signs in election season. I'm flying mine this weekend to show that Dems give a damn about our country and to honor all of the poor souls whose lives were taken in past wars. This has nothing to do with Bushco - for me it's a matter of respecting the dead.

[Redstone]

126. That's an interesting twist, and a good idea.

Leave it to you to think of it that way, and I do mean that as a compliment.

Redstone

[Bouncy Ball]

133. LOL, thanks.

I live to piss off and confuse reich-wingers. And it's so easy! Hee.

[Redstone]

134. Easy because, face it, they're not too bright. But fun nonetheless.

Redstone

[girl gone mad]

78. I feel the same way.

I was actually thinking of putting one up tomorrow, for the first time. I'm sick of the Republicans hijacking the flag. Maybe I'll fly a British, Russian and French flags alongside it to commemorate all of allied troops who fought in in the last real war. How about Vietnamese and Iraqi flags, too, for all of the soldiers who have died in our unnecessary wars.

[Bouncy Ball]

79. Get crazy with it!

[Abies]

90. I'm doing the same thing

I haven't flown it since we invaded Afghanistan. It's out there this weekend in memory of my WWII vet grandfather.

After this weekend, I'm going back to the gold standard:



If it was good enough for King George back then, it's good enough for him now.

[NoPasaran]

75. I'll be flying mine

I'll be flying mine because it is not Jerry Falwell's flag, it is not George Bush's flag, it is MY flag and I refuse to cede it to the neocon zombie brigade.

[JI7]

77. fly the flag with a "bring the troops home now" sign

and other messages you support. why let them take the flag for themselves and allow them to decide what it represents.

[merh]

82. I've always had the greatest respect for you Redstone

but I vehemently disagree with your stance.

My father was Army Air Corp/USAF in World War II. He was a navigator on B17s in the war. He had medals, but he rarely spoke of his service, the war to him was not glory but service, his duty. I believe he saw things he didn't want to remember, things he never could bring himself to talk about, I know he watched men die. But that never negated his love for his nation, even during the turbulent times of the VietNam War. He was still active duty during that time, training others who served in VietNam. He continued his service in the USAF for over 30 years and then was Civil Service to the USAF. He was a proud military man that taught us to the fly the flag on all holidays to show our respect, to show our love for this nation.

I fly the flag in memory and to honor those my father could not speak about, those that he taught that served in VietNam and that lost their lives in their service of this nation. My mother's cousin died on the USS Arizona, one of my best friends in high school lost her father to the VietNam War when she was just a child, they only recently found his remains and had the burial service, I fly the flag to honor and remember them. I fly the flag to honor and remember all who have given their lives in the service of this nation. It is the least I can do.

I have flown a small flag on my femansion since the day they gave me a key. This is my nation and the flag is my flag, I am a proud American and I will never forget those that have given their lives so that I can fly my flag and so that you can do as you have chosen to do and that is, not fly yours.

.

[Texasgal]

83. I wish I could nominate individual posts.

Thank you Merh.

That was incredible.

:)

[Fox Mulder]

92. My dad refuses to fly the flag.

For the very same reason you choose not to.

I support the both of you.

BTW, I am not going to fly my flag either. I have not flown it since December of 2000.

[Lefty48197]

93. I've flown one since September 2001.

...and it ain't coming down until Osama dies.

[LWolf]

114. Is that what the symbol represents for you?

Revenge and Death?

[Pastiche423]

137. Uh...

Osama has been dead since December 2001.

[knitter4democracy]

99. I always fly my flag.

No way in hell are the Republicans going to steal our greatest symbol of unity and power and make it theirs.

I fully support your decision and your thinking behind it. I've just decided differently. Peace.

[steely]

101. I fly my flags.

I place a bunch in front of the house on the lawn - the little ones.
I did think about not flying them out of shame - and while I completely dig where Redstone's coming from, I decided I'd fly them for many of the reasons stated by others above. Plus, where I grew up, it meant something when I was a kid. I do it for friends, family, and others who served in the past, and now.

[Clarkie1]

102. I will never let them take my flag. I'll fly it proud. n/t

[agincourt]

104. I bought a flag and flew it on 9/11/2001

suprisingly very few were out that day. They all seemed to come out in my town after we started bombing Afghanistan. I quit flying it after the 2002 mid-terms. It just didn't seem like a democracy anymore so I thought "why pretend?". I might get a new one if bush is out and we get a democratic president.

[BlackVelvet04]

106. Hi, Redstone,

I've never owned a flag and probably never will.

I'm not big on symbolism. I think symbolism often soothes our conscience and keeps us from actually doing something. That's just my personal belief.

I had ancestors who fought in the revolutionary war, the civil war, and WWI. My dad fought in the Phillipines and Germany during WWII and my brother in Vietnam. I have two nephews in the service. I am proud that all of them fought for the same thing, whether the wars they were engaged in were right or wrong, they were and are men of principal.

I think the best way for me to honor those who went before me is to live a life I and they can be proud of.

[Redstone]

146. Very well said. Thank you.

Redstone

[liberalpress]

107. The a-holes in charge...

..have stolen a lot from me:

..the word liberal
..the respect of other countries
..my vote
..my religion

THEY WILL NOT TAKE MY FLAG.

It is out. It is Flying. It is MINE!

[bdamomma]

111. great posts

Memorial Day should be a day for us remembering all those who died in present and past wars.

To fly the flag or not, that choice should be made by us, fly it correctly or fly it upside down. This is what these soldiers fought for, this day represents all those who died who defended this country. But today, it may have a different interpretation for some of us.

Now July 4th is another consideration......to fly or not to fly the flag

[in_cog_ni_to]

112. I fly a PEACE flag everyday and will do so until this illegal invasion

ENDS. I LOVE my PEACE flag. It says everything I need to say.

[mod mom]

121. We fly ours in honor of the brave soldiers, who had nothing to do with

starting wars, but who serve when their country calls.

We also have a NO WAR sign up as well as a BUSH STEP DOWN sign.

[Midlodemocrat]

123. This is a great thread. A prime example of

respecting differing opinions without flames.

K & R.

[Redstone]

127. Yes, it is, isn't it?

Redstone

[Midlodemocrat]

151. I would expect nothing else from you, Redstone.

You are the epitome of civility, even when disagreeing.

I respect your stance, as I respect what you did for our country. Thank you for your service.

[Redstone]

158. Midlo, you're a peach. And as for respect? You have mine.

Redstone

[REACTIVATED IN CT]

131. I took mine down when the Abu Gharaib

prison story broke. However, I did recently buy one with a peace symbol in the field of blue. That's what I flew today for the Memorial Day parade which comes down my street. Even though I live in a blue state, I wasn't sure what the reaction would be. The first car in the parade carried a vet who looked to be in his 70s. "I like your decorations", he shouted to me. Other marchers asked where they could get one like it.

I love my country - I hate what is being done to it

[jpevahouse]

132. Fly the flag, it's about people not politcis

The US flag does not represent our government but the citizens of our country. I don't have much confidence in our government. I didn't used to fly the flag but do now because I have limits as to how synical I will allow myself to become. In a country so diverse we are going to have many disagreements between us politically and otherwise. A lot of people in the US didn't support the invasion of Iraq, me one of them. But when we assume adult responsibility part of it is understanding and accepting that others have the right to opposing beliefs. It can be a bitter pill to swallow. Since the flag represents us all the jesture applies to all. Personally I'd find a less synical way to express my dislike for the government's policy and people supported the invasion of Iraq.

[B Calm]

135. I haven't flown our flag since democracy was stolen by the SC..

[Odin2005]

139. Don't let the freeps steal the flag.

It's a symbol of the people, not the thugs who stole our country.

[insane_cratic_gal]

140. we are a active military family and we don't' fly one either

It's been hijacked by people claiming to support the troops and all that America stands for, yet turn their backs on the troops

I can't be proud when American citizens are spied on and our Constitution, the one thing the troops swear to defend, are trampled upon by this administration.
This isn't the same country My Father's fathers liberated from tyranny. I some times don't recognize our country anymore. I won't fly her symbol until she's returned to her natural state of being.

It's certaintly not the bully Asshat has turned her into.

[musical_soul]

142. No righty will take away my country or my patriotism.

The end.

[scoey1953]

145. Actually who can afford such a thing?

Flags are expensive, so are the aluminum poles, with gas going up four dollars a gallon
can you really afford to buy a really good flag? Sure you could get one from K-mart (made in China) that will shred apart after three days of a good wind....But to get a real cloth flag? For many Americans out of work they would rather purchase food...or clothing for their kids. A new pair of gym shoes. Is owning a flag a necessity of life?

Now I do own a flag. It had been on my Dads coffin, since he was a World War II Vet, and that was given to me by the Veterans Administraion...but its disrespectful to fly a flag after its been draped on coffin. It will stay in its little three corner box forever. Some well off people write to their Senators or Congressmen and pay for a flag that has flown one day over Washington D.C. for just one day. The problem there is planning. You would have had to written a few months ago to get this flag..because there are so many requests for these kinds of flags.

Then there is the emotional feeling about our flag. Too many people are disgusted that the Bush administration and Republicans have "wrapped themselves up" in the American flag, basically claiming it for their own. "Hell" they say, "Democrats are against anything truly American anyway..in fact
all Liberals are anti-american!!" and they spew their stuff so its easy for Democrats to say, fine, take your flag and shove it up ...well wait a minute...this is OUR FLAG TOO!!!! Your damn straight it is. We are the party of John F. Kennedy, Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman and Thomas Jefferson for pete's sake!!! We deserve to have that flag as much as any American...

Ah then it comes back to cost. Ok, so you buy a tiny flag...it might be a decal for your car...a refrigerator magnet...something small you can stick in the window...(Hopefully the colors will not fade in three days from the sun)or perhaps you buy a small one on a stick, to take out to a grave site of a loved one who was a veteran.

I remember a day, I was sitting in a "liberty" boat, in the bay of Naples Italy. I had been out to sea for over 90 days, in the Mediterranean on board an Air Craft carrier. I had received no mail for weeks. Yet I looked up and saw "Our".."My" flag...being the only thing that represented where I had come from, where I had grown up, where I had gone to school, where my friends and family were. I was here on behalf of my country, protecting the world from unseen forces...and all there was was this cloth flapping in the wind on strange waters in a strange country. I felt something in my chest. Pride maybe? I was representing my country in the Uniform of the Day.

So I suppose flags are very important to some of us. Someone who might not even be in the Military has a cushy job over in Tokyo...and one day he drives by the US Embassy and sees that funny looking striped cloth with the 50 stars on it. One of which represents the state he was born in, the state he went to school and grew up in. It reminds him who he is, even if he has been speaking Japanese fluently for months.

So..ok. Its ok to be disgusted with Bush and all the idiots running the Country. God knows, we are embarrassed as hell to call ourselves Americans because of what this administration has done. You have to feel sorry for those working over seas in other countries, where people come up to them and say..."Ah..you are American? Your President is an Idiot". Yet and they would be right. But...
remember...That flag is still ours...Yes it might be funny looking...to most people around the world, but it has held respect in the past. It represents a group of people who have in the past been helpful, and kind. Who have given money to countries in need with their various diasters...who sent their kids off to go to work for organizations like CARE...and The American Red Cross. Who worked for the PEACE CORPS.. helped bring food to starving nations...

Ok...so its hard to afford a flag these days. But when you think of it..Its nice to have one around..to remind you of all the good things it represents. The problem is, we as Americans have to go about the business of restoring the dignity of this flag. Its up to us...to make the necessary changes...so it can still fly proud and free, so that Military personnel can also look up at it...and be reminded of all the good things at home worth protecting.

[AnnieBW]

147. Damn Straight!

No flag for me, and I'm as patriotic as they come!

[Tracer]

153. I've always been quietly pleased ...

... that I live in an area famous for its Revolutionary War heroes. (My town marched a contingent of men 8 miles to the fight at North Bridge in Concord).

Flying the flag on Memorial Day and the Fourth of July and attending the parades and speeches, has always had a distinctly local flavor -- as opposed to a national feeling.

Now -- my flag is gathering dust in a corner of a closet.

To fly it now seems to me to be a statement of jingoism and I can't be a part of that.

It's very sad.

[bush_is_wacko]

157. Funny. I didn't see a whole lot of American flags anywhere this past

weekend either.

For myself the frustration with the inaction on all sides of the political spectrum with regards to all the criminal behavior in DC, Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere else has become so overwhelming I can hardly even listen to other people talking about it anymore.

As for flying an American flag. No way. I may live here but my flag doesn't represent much of anything to me anymore.

[upi402]

159. My dad fought in WW2 so I put up a tiny plastic one

The traitors who wrap themselves in the flag look like Red White and Blue corndogs to me now.