Is it unreasonable to expect better?

[lumberjack_jeff]

The fixation with Lou Dobbs illustrates something that troubles me a lot. In the absence of a coherent argument that illegal immigration helps the country generally, and democratic constituencies specifically, supporters always, (and I do mean always) resort to the argument of last resort;

"You're arguing a point with which I disagree. I'm not a racist, therefore you must be."

Nowhere is this more apparent than in the countless threads about Lou Dobbs. The underlying theme is that since Lou Dobbs is a jackass, and since he's outspoken against illegal immigration (and outsourcing) therefore only jackasses should be against it.

C'mon - we can do better. With all the non-sequiturs, ad-hominem attacks, blaming the messenger and straw men, immigration threads have become a parody of how not to conduct a discussion.

The immigration topic should be conducted primarily on the basis of what is best for the citizens of this country, or at the very least, what can be done to assist the citizens of other countries without directly harming our own.

When it comes to domestic politics, my sympathies are 100% with working class americans. If we want to do something for citizens of other countries, is must be by working with their leaders. In the example of Mexico, if Fox is disinterested in looking out for their welfare, then they need to fix their own society.

[shadowknows69]

1. and we certainly need to fix some major things

in our own society before we can be in a position again to help the world like we once did and sadly that includes turning away some of the huddled masses for a while. IMO.

[MichiganVote]

2. Part of the problem is redefining the term, "working class"

[lumberjack_jeff]

3. Right. At one time "working class" implied...

"working class american".

Uh... and "american" implied "american citizen". It concerns me that advocating for "working class american citizens" should require defensiveness.

[MichiganVote]

5. Well people like the American part and other people want to claim

the status of "working class" for a myriad of people, here legally or illegally. But the class part? That is the part for which people continue to need guidance. To identify with one class means exclusion from another, i.e., member of the working class, the leisure class, the elite class, etc.

Class as a distinction has become as meanigless as the term 'working'. If she felt so inclined, Paris Hilton would call herself a member of the 'working class'. Sad, considering the woman has -0- class at all....

edit/typo

[Finder]

4. Neither side tends to be coherent in most mainstream arguments...

and both make good points which are missed with all the rhetoric.

I don't think Dobbs is a racist but a nationalist. Although most racists tend to be nationalists that does not make all nationalists racist by any means.

Also, immigration goes beyond the issues with Mexico which is what the topic is focused on primarily.(In the media and on DU) Rarely will you hear a "Minuteman" rail against a Polish or Irish immigrant being here illegally much less mention the Canadian construction worker immigrants that build our homes each summer...

Thanks to DU, I have no idea who "working class Americans" are anymore.

[joemurphy]

6. My take on Lou Dobbs and immigration

I'd have a lot more regard for Dobbs if he didn't regularly have racists on his program and if he elevated the discourse. My present opinion is that Dobbs isn't so much a racist as a panderer to xenophobic strata of American society. He likes getting people lathered up because it pumps his ratings.
Hence, his show is all Mexican immigration all the time.

As to immigration, my personal opinion is that something has to be done to get it under control. I don't think militarizing the border or building a fence is the answer. Neither will work as long as America is a job magnet for desperate Mexicans. The real solution is working with Mexico to elevate living standards there -- but that will take a long time. It will take even longer than necessary since no one -- Dems or Republicans -- have any plans for doing that any time in the near future.

In the short term, employers have to be fined for hiring illegals. There is no real focus on that now and there isn't likely to be any anytime in the near future. Fines were on the books before and they were never enforced. I don't see them being enforced now. There just isn't enough political will to get it done. So nothing will happen. As things stand, employers don't like playing detective when they hire someone and they have too much to gain by not asking a lot of questions when a Mexican comes around asking for work.

As to the illegals that are already here, I say you have to normalize their lives in some way. It's inhumane and stupid to do otherwise. You can't ship them all back and they'll just return anyway. Furthermore, I think having a substantial number of Mexican-Americans becoming citizens -- and probably voting Democratic in the bargain -- might be a way of focusing U.S. attention on the Mexican problem. Maybe, just maybe, Mexican Americans might provide the money and political muscle to promote reform candidates in Mexico and simultaneously force the U.S. to develop a relationship with Mexico roughly akin to the European Common Market. That, hopefully, would raise Mexican living standards and go a long way toward alleviating the flood of Mexican immigration that's got everyone so stirred up.

Anyway, if Mexican standards of living don't rise, you're just going to see more of the same.