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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:18 PM
Original message
About the Republican Accusation that Liberals Hate America
"Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do. They don't have the energy”. – Ann Coulter

It infuriates me to hear hypocritical Republicans spout off about how “liberals hate America”. In the first place, it’s a meaningless and stupid thing to say, because the phrase “hate America” (or “love America”) can mean so many different things. But saying that “liberals hate America” makes a damn good sound bite, and there are many voters who are swayed by that phrase, under the principle that if you hear something said enough times it must be true. And anyhow, what else do Republicans have to talk about?

The fact of the matter is that, according to some definitions of “America” liberals do in fact hate America, and Republicans love America. But according to other definitions of “America”, liberals love America and conservatives hate it.

It is imperative that we make that distinction because otherwise liberals are usually seen to be on the losing side of the argument, since our corporate media acts as a megaphone for Republicans to spread the “liberals hate America” cliché. But if we can successfully make the distinction as to which “America” WE love and hate, and which “America” THEY love and hate, then we will have destroyed a politically powerful talking point for the Republicans – one of the few that they have left.


Why I present this issue as Republicans vs. liberals

It may seem odd that I talk about this in terms of Republicans vs. liberals, rather than conservatives vs. liberals or Republicans vs. Democrats.

By Republicans I mean today’s Republicans – our current presidential administration and all their supporters and enablers in Congress, our judiciary, and in the general population. There are many conservatives who do not support our current administration, and I do not intend this essay to apply to them (although it may in fact apply to some or many of them).

And I speak of “liberals” rather than of Democrats because not all Democrats subscribe to the liberal principles that I discuss here. And furthermore, the Republican “hate America” accusation is generally directed at liberals, rather than Democrats as a whole. They realize that there are so many Americans that consider themselves Democrats that they would sound too strident if they directed their attack against all Democrats, so they have decided to pursue a “divide and conquer” strategy instead. By demonizing liberals and at the same time claiming that liberals have taken over the Democratic Party, the Republicans hope to peal away some Democratic votes.


The “America” that is loved by liberals and hated by Republicans

I can think of at least four different definitions that people use to define the America that they love or hate. Two of them are loved by liberals and hated by Republicans, and the other two are loved by Republicans and hated by liberals. I’ll start here by talking about the America that is loved by liberals.


America as defined by its founding documents – The Declaration of Independence and its Constitution

The first founding document of America, its Declaration of Independence, expresses the ideals which were meant to provide the rationale for its very existence and general guidance for the establishment of its government and all future actions. There are two basic principles of this document that are crucial to the point I am trying to make. The first is this:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

What we should take away from this great statement is that ALL men (and by implication, women and children too) should have the opportunity for a decent life – AND that it is the purpose of government to ensure that they have that opportunity.

And it is also very important to point out that the AMERICAN Declaration of Independence does not distinguish, in its human rights declarations, between American citizens and other people. ALL people have these rights. And by the way, Jesus expressed a very similar sentiment when he said "Whatever you neglected to do unto one of these least of these, you neglected to do unto Me"

Liberals fervently believe in this.

That is why liberals eventually abolished slavery in our country.

That is why liberals passed laws that limited the power of corporations to control the lives of ordinary citizens of our country.

That is why liberals passed the Social Security laws and worker compensation laws – to ensure some degree of financial security for the citizens of our country.

That is why liberals even believe in a social safety net (which today’s Republicans call Communism) – to ensure that the least fortunate of our citizens have some opportunity for a decent life.

That is why liberals passed Medicare, to ensure that our older citizens have some access to adequate health care, and why liberals have tried to pass a national health insurance plan – to extend that access to all citizens of our country.

That is why liberals favor raising the minimum wage in our country – so that the working men and women of our country don’t have to live in poverty.

That is why liberals favor adequate funding of public education – so that children will have the opportunity to make a decent life for themselves.

That is why liberals believe that war should be used as a national policy ONLY as a last resort, after other measures have failed – so that the lives of millions are not destroyed for the profits of the few.

That is why liberals believe that we need laws to preserve our environment, which is necessary for a continuing decent life for all people of the world – so that future generations will continue to reap its life preserving and enhancing benefits.

And that is why liberals reject the idea that that private companies have the right to count our votes with secret “proprietary” software] programs that don’t provide assurance that our votes are actually counted – so that ALL people can be assured of the opportunity to participate in our Democracy.


The other basic principle in our Declaration of Independence that I wish to emphasize is this:

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government…

I emphasize this because Republicans often use as a rationale for their claim that “liberals hate America” the criticisms that liberals direct against their government. Well, as the above excerpt from our Declaration makes clear, there is nothing more American than criticizing our government when one believes that our government is being destructive of the ends for which it was created.

Liberals take the Declaration of Independence very seriously, and that is why they criticize our government when they believe that criticism is warranted – NOT because they “hate America”.


The purpose of our Constitution was to provide a legal framework for the enactment of laws that would eventually make the ideals expressed in our Declaration of Independence a reality. The first ten amendments to our Constitution, the Bill of Rights, were created in order to ensure basic liberties for our citizens. Liberals fervently believe in our Constitution as a means of protecting our Democracy, and that is why they get upset when they observe attempts to undermine our Constitution.


America as defined by its people

Another way of thinking about one’s feelings about America is in reference to its people. Of course there are so many millions of people in America that it is difficult to think about this in the abstract. Liberals, like most other people, love some people and dislike or hate others.

But if I had to describe what it means to love people as an abstract principle, I would go right back to the Declaration of Independence. Loving America as defined by its people is very similar or identical to a fervent belief in our Declaration of Independence, since that Declaration expresses the ideal that ALL people have the RIGHT to an opportunity for a decent life.


The America that is hated by liberals and loved by Republicans

America as defined by its current government

Unfortunately, since the Bush administration came to power in 2001, they and their Republican supporters, by their actions, have shown nothing but contempt for our Declaration of Independence, our Constitution, the people of the United States, and all the people of the world. Liberals do indeed hate this, just as Republicans, as shown by their support for these actions, obviously don’t have a problem with it:

By George W. Bush’s use of hundreds of signing statements to state his intention NOT to follow the laws passed by Congress, he has expressed his contempt for Democracy in general.

By our administration’s unprecedented use of “first amendment zones” to limit the right of protesters against our government to be heard, it has expressed contempt for our First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech. Free speech is a useful guarantee of liberty ONLY IF it can be heard. The right to protest against tyrannical government was THE main rationale for our First Amendment.

By our administration’s declaration that it is illegal for news reporters to report on government actions if our government unilaterally declares those actions to be secret and of national security interest, our administration again has expressed its contempt for our First Amendment’s guarantee of free speech.

By our administration’s program for warantless spying on American citizens, it has expressed its contempt for our Fourth Amendment’s guarantee of freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures.

By our administration’s holding of prisoners “suspected of terrorism” indefinitely and without the bringing of charges or giving them the right to defend themselves, it has expressed its contempt for our Fifth Amendment’s guarantee of the right to face one’s accusers and to defend one’s self against government accusations. By its abuse and torture of many of those prisoners it has expressed its contempt for international law.

By our administration’s preemptive war against a country that posed no threat to us, and their lies to the American people that were designed to make that war politically feasible, they expressed contempt for the American people.

By our administration’s failure to even attempt to take timely action to rescue victims of Hurricane Katrina, it expressed its contempt for people who lack the resources to protect themselves against such natural disasters.

By our administration’s eagerness to side with corporations and wealthy and powerful individuals against other citizens of our country on every single issue, it has expressed contempt for the good majority of people of our country, as well as the principles in our Declaration of Independence. These issues include massive tax breaks for the wealthy, the removal of environmental regulations on the actions of corporations, the attempted destruction of the Social Security Administration, opposition to an increase in the minimum wage to close to the poverty level, the failure to adequately fund our public schools, and many many more.

Lastly, Republicans for decades have expressed so much contempt for the American Civil Liberty Union that they actually use it as a term of abuse. The purpose of the American Civil Liberty Union can be summed up as follows:

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

In other words, the purpose of the ACLU is to protect the American system of government, as defined by our Constitution. Republicans make no secret of their hatred of the ACLU.


America as defined by “American exceptionalism”

“American exceptionalism” is the term that is used by today’s Republicans to refer to their belief that America never does anything wrong (well, ok, they only use this doctrine when Republicans are in power), and therefore criticizing our government indicates at best hatred for “America” and at worst treason. I don’t know how else to explain this bizarre concept. I don’t even know if most Republicans would say that I am mischaracterizing them in the way I attribute this belief to them, or if they would proudly admit to it. Either way, I don’t see how they can deny it.

This belief is evident in the way that Republican claims that “liberals hate America” are almost always linked to another phrase that they attribute to liberals – “the blame America first crowd”. To these Neanderthals, criticism of an American (Republican) government provides all the grounds they need for their claim that “liberals hate America”.
The concept was expressed perfectly by Republican talk show host Hugh Hewitt, when he referred to Democrats as “a party of bitter hostility to the idea of American exceptionalism”. This statement was directly tied to his scathing criticism of Senator Richard Durbin for daring to complain about the torture of American prisoners of war on the floor of the U.S. Senate. In his scathing criticism of Durbin, Hewitt never once denied Durbin’s charges. There was no need to deny the charges to the kind of people to whom Hewitt’s tirade was addressed. His point was simply that America should be allowed to do whatever it wants to do, and criticism of American actions, no matter what they are, constitute “hatred of America”.


Conclusion

Liberals are the staunchest defenders of America as defined by our founding documents and as defined by the American people. What they hate is the bizarre and inhumane concept of America that is put forward by today’s Republican Party. When liberals criticize that version of America, and are consequently accused by Republicans of “hating America”, they should be very assertive about making the distinction. Few Americans approve of today’s Republican agenda once they understand what it is.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. I had something to say about this...
"Hate America?"

Where do these idiots get this idea? They fling it off the cuff as if it means something. "Liberals hate America."

Uh...no.

We hate some of the shortsighted, wrongheaded, callous strategies the Right (Wrong) Wing espouses, the ones that leave thousands of American soldiers dead or maimed, tens of thousands of innnocent people dead or wounded, and returning vets without proper care because their benefits have been sliced to ribbons.

We hate the policies that pretend to consider education important, while underfunding any program that actually promotes educational opportunities.

We hate the policies that refuse to allow a living wage to American workers, yet subsidize what amounts to slave labor in other parts of the world.

We hate the fact that the media goes along with all the lies and disinformation this administration spews like vomit after sixteen straight shots of rotgut whiskey.

We hate that, despite having some of the best medical technology in the world, many Americans are one critical injury or illness away from abject poverty...or a lifetime of debt.

We hate the fact that some people use a religion that was originally meant to be all-encompassing (remember the compassion of Jesus Christ and compare it to the lack of compassion in those who claim to follow Him) to slander and spit upon people who don't see things the same way.

We hate that some people think it's better to be polluters than the kind of people who want to STOP pollution. We hate the fact that some people think it's better to be the folks throwing mercury into the water, or noxious filth into the air, than the kind of "treehuggers" who want to stop this sort of stuff.

No, we don't hate America. We just hate the sort of Americans that make us regret sharing a country with them, who do things in OUR name that we're not proud of, and say things that make us want to scream in absolute disdain "WE DIDN'T AGREE TO THIS!"

We LOVE what America could have been--the ideal that evil, selfish people have stolen away...we love the REAL America, not this changeling child those people have tried to put in its place.

Talk about the ultimate bait and switch.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
10. I posted what our "plan" is - mostly getting rid of hateful racist bigots
"What's your plan?" - "To get your racist homophobic ass out of office !"

Posted by Mr_Spock in General Discussion
Sat May 20th 2006, 10:20 AM

It always comes down to fear mongering for the Generally Obtuse Party.

They ask the Dems - who spend most of their time trying to be even be heard in Congress and who are trying to do their best to oppose the crazy bigotry of the Repukes - "what is your plan"?

I'll tell you what our plan is.

It's to get rid of angry racist bigoted homophobic hate spewers - get you out of office and back onto the street where you belong. No more amendments designed specifically to pit people in this country against each other. No more amendments designed (as never before) to deny rights to a specific group based purely on religious and cultural bigotry. No more of this hate mongering.

It's to get rid of people who only care about people before they are born and after they are dead, but everything that happens in between is incidental and "every man for himself" or "live and let die". Nice people these "Christians"

It's to get rid of elitist money-mongers who know that the rich are their "base" (and they give most of their money) and reward this "base" with disproportionately high tax cuts while we have record deficits. Republicans hate poor people - and they are determined to make sure the poor stay that way. God forbid a poor city Democrat have enough time or resources to get involved in politics. That's reserved for the bourgeoisie!

It's to get rid of people who say that "I'm against nation building" - who then proceed to establish the largest nation building project in our history. To get rid of the morans who support a person who's idea of avenging the deaths of over 3000 innocent Americans is to kill 3000 American soldiers and 100,000 innocent civilians in a country that isn't ours (so it don't matter right?). Oh, and did I mention that this country had nothing at all to do with the attack we are avenging?

It's to get rid of people who think torture and "secret prisons" and spying on it's own citizens is OK. No, it's not OK! It's evil and wrong and dangerous for the future of our nation. It's the beginnings of totalitarian government and I'm determined not to let my country slip into fascism.

It's to get rid of people who think the best way to show that government is too big is to make it incompetent. No better example of this was ever seen than the governments reaction to Katrina. "See, FEMA's incompetent, we'll have to get rid of it". Oh, but we'll fold it into the Homeland Gestapo Department ver ve have special powers

My plan?

It's to get rid of you - Mr. Right Wing Nut Job.

Good riddance!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #10
42. Great plan
:thumbsup:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. Very well said.
If we keep on putting it like that, enough Americans should see the light before too long, and then America WILL BE what it could have been.
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. A smoking gun - - Who really hates America? - - from GOP Talking points
Your "ultimate bait and switch" comment nailed it.

Listening to GOP Talking Points (in unguarded moments) will reveal who really hates America, and American values:


Framing the Issues


“No speech about homeland security or Iraq should begin without a reference to 9/11 ....

“If you describe it simply as a ‘preemptive action,’ some Americans will carry deep reservations about the rightness of the cause. Americans are conditioned to think that hitting first is usually wrong .... By far, the better word to use than ‘preemption’ is ‘PREVENTION ’ ....”

from GOP spinmeister Frank Luntz's June, 2004 talking points



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1299965






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iamjoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. They Hate Americans
let's play their game. Republicans, Conswervatives, however you wish to name them hate Americans. Why else would they seek to strip away worker protections and environmental protections. I could go on and on...
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Deja Q Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
2. Coulter is a nut, divisive and unworthy of attention.
Edited on Sat May-27-06 03:23 PM by HypnoToad
Harsh for me to say, but she's just a catchphrase-driven troll. No substance. Just style - and a big adamsapple...

"Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do. They don't have the energy”. – Ann Coulter

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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
73. Annie
is nothing more that a bigoted fool and sex change operation gone bad.
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. every attack they make is projection
the neocons now control the repuke party and the conservative movement. they hate America more than any group in history. they have done more damage to America in 5 years than any other entity has done in all our nation's history.
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izzie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You sound right to me. They even hate our war heroes
I am sure they would love to see Tom Paine burn as they read their Bibles and hold a flag. Real odd group of Americans as far as I can see. I just have such a hard time putting my self in their place and trying to figure out where they got their thinking from. It is like they came out of the dark ages. Just un-American
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. Good, well reasoned arguments
I find when I confront freepers I have to be a bit more specific and a bit more blunt. "So we liberals don't support the troops, eh? How much money have you given the local Guard unit this past year. I've donated $XXX. And how many times have you called our Congressman and complained about the lack of psychiatric care for our returning veterans? Or do you think it is ok to return someone with untreated PTSD to the field of combat? And how many tours have YOU served over there?

Usually they shut up after the first question.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
47. Congratulation - It is quite an accomplishment to get a freeper to shut up
We might also ask them how they can defend such things as Bush cutting health care benefits for veterans and doing such a poor job of providing them with adequate protection that their families in the U.S. are raising money to pay for body armor for them. Is that not the job of government?
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
5. Well written, and steeped in the truth
Recommended.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
6. Working exactly as intended
It is a thought terminating cliche; an intellectual booby trap.

Your rebuttal, however well reasoned, is beyond the intellectual grasp of most, if not all right wing conservatives.

While we argue and prove that the statement is invalid, the noise machine just moves on to the next "four legs good, two legs bad" cliche.




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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
12. Exactly - "an intellectual booby trap"
I agree that this is beyond the intellectual grasp of most right wing conservatives. But my argument is intended not so much for right wing conservatives -- most who are pretty much beyond reasoning IMO.

Rather, it is intended more for moderates or slightly to the right conservatives or moderates, who might buy the right wing attack line from time to time, perhaps because they're not paying close enough attention, or because they get only mostly soundbites from our MSM.
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mortlefaucheur Donating Member (141 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
8. And not to forget
the liberals that actually join the armed forces and serve, while Repukes sit home safely agitating for more conflict in the world.
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. Very, VERY well put.
One of the best posts I've seen here in a while.

Recommended and bookmarked.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 04:35 PM
Response to Original message
11. Excellent post - if Republican hatred, bigotry and racism represent Americ
...then I sure have a problem with that.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
13. Very Good stuff
Thank you
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Ksec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
14. excellent post
Youve written what was buried in my brain . I could have never written this, but you spoke to my beliefs amd you backed it up with proof. I say one of the best Ive read on DU/
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #14
74. Thank you very much
I've thought about this for a long time. In fact, several months ago I posted something similar, but I think that I didn't say it in a way that people could relate to, and it quickly sunk out of sight, with only three or so responses.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
15. You might be interested in this....
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
76. Excellent
Similar to what I wrote in some ways, but with more humor.
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. I hate the America repugs create. nt
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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
17. Very well said. And yes, there is an America that I hate.
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tlsmith1963 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. I Don't Hate What America is *Supposed* to Be
Edited on Sat May-27-06 06:58 PM by tlsmith1963
I hate what it *is*. I guess I prefer the myth that inspires many people in other countries to immigrate here: that people are equal in this country, & that you are free to be who you are/say what you want. The reality, at least in GWB's America, is quite different. That is what I hate. The neocons are the "alien" in this country. They are undermining democracy. They do not stand for the things America is supposed to stand for, & the sooner conservatives realize it, the better. Their party was hijacked by people who spit on the very ideals America was built on. And despite what the conservatives may think, this is one liberal that doesn't want the Republican Party to end. You have to have more than one point of view in a democracy. I *do* want the neocons, & even extremist fundamentalist Christians, stopped. But I would hate to see the GOP completely destroyed. This is why I wish more conservatives would see that their party has been taken over by extremists who threaten our country. They should join with us & stop the extremists. But they are so blinded by their hatred of liberals that the truth eludes them.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:36 AM
Response to Reply #18
36. we need more than one POV
but I am not sure why we need a republican/fascist/neocon POV. It would be very nice IMO if our two parties were Greens and Democrats.

But you sound like you believe in American exceptionalism, as do I. But to me, American exceptionalism does not mean that Abu Ghraib is okay. In fact, Abu Ghraib is even more of an insult because of the way it underminds American exceptionalism. American, the good guys, are not supposed to do things like that - ever! As Al Gore said: "How DARE he drag the good name of the United States of America into Saddam Hussein's torture chambers?!!" Bush also has tried to maintain deniability, blaming it on a few peons while the higher-ups who authorized and encouraged it are applauded, advanced, and/or awarded.
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SeaBob Donating Member (447 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 09:27 PM
Response to Original message
20. Thank you
Thank you for a very eloquent piece. I work in a very conservative work environment and I intend to make many copies of this and post them on bulletin boards all over our work place.

Again
Thank you
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #20
31. Hey that's great!
Knowing that this will be put to good use makes me feel that the time I put into writing it was well worth the effort.

Thank you for letting me know. I'd be very interested to hear what the reaction will be. :)
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
21. Mizz or Mister Coulter
some liberals hate,hatemongers such as you and you being an american of sorts,I suspose hating you does ruffle your chickenhawk feathers,so Mizz or Mister Coulter go piss up a rope.
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Bretttido Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Very good critique
Now the hard part, we need to encapsulate it into a short sentence or two... ugh.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
78. Thank you -- How about this?
From the conclusion of my OP:

Liberals are the staunchest defenders of America as defined by our founding documents and as defined by the American people. What they hate is the bizarre and inhumane concept of America that is put forward by today’s Republican Party?
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:01 PM
Response to Original message
23. Reclaiming the noble title 'Liberal'....
...and doing it with a fist-full of facts. Thank you for this. :thumbsup:




K&R
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
79. Thank you zola
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Democrats_win Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. Germany post WW1: We lost the war because of the Jews. Today
this "stabbed in the back" claim is being applied to Liberals.

In America it started just after WW2 as the Republican party started blaming liberals for the Yalta agreement which gave the USSR eastern Europe. They ignore the fact that FDR consultued Republicans, and came up with this plan. What would they have had us do? Attack the USSR?

Check out the June 2006 Harpers magazine essay on p. 31 about the history of the Republican propaganda of how Liberals stabbed America in the back. Democrats will love the conclusion that it was instead the Republicans that have really harmed our nation.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #24
34. That sounds like a very interesting article
I don't believe I'd thought about it before, but I think that the parallel is quite appropriate. It's really pathetic that people feel to make excuses like that for Viet Nam -- a war we should have never fought in the first place. Don't they understand that the main reason we lost was because very few people wanted us there?
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:15 PM
Response to Original message
25. Nothing new under the sun. From "A History of the Jews"
Edited on Sat May-27-06 10:28 PM by UTUSN
O.K., before somebody informed me here that Paul JOHNSON is a wingnut, I had not heard of him. I picked his book out of about 3 just from the introductions and the blurbs on the covers. I know now (not from this book) that his history of the U.S. is wingnut revisionism of FDR. But THIS book is for my general knowledge and in the vast sweep of thousands of years of history, and his wingnuttiness doesn't get in the way up to now.

So,

*********QUOTE********** (paperback)

p. 467: ...a conscious effort to stop thinking oneself Jewish. Even Brandeis, as late as 1910, attacked 'habits of living or of thought which tend to keep alive differences of origin' asndesirable and 'inconsisten with the American ideal of brotherhood'. To stress Jewishness was 'disloyal'.

p. 476: But there was a popular belief, shared and propagated by Hitler and the Nazis with relentless persistence, that Jews had evaded service and, indeed, stabbed the army in the back.

p. 477: Some Jews tried hard to counter the unpatriotic, Bolshevist image thrust upon them. ....The insuperable difficulty any patriotic German Jew had to contend with was the Weimar Republic itself. It was born of defeat, indisolubly linked with defeat, and, in the minds of most Germans associated with Jews... .... ...Jews were instrumental in creating the German Communist Party. .... Enemies of the Jews accused them of kidnapping German culture, of transforming it into a new, alien thing...

**********UNQUOTE*********
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #25
51. I read that book a long time ago
I also read his "Modern Times", which definitely is wing nut revisionism. He spends a fair amount of time arguing that Hoover had sounder and better economic policies than FDR and that Watergate was a witch hunt :rofl:

But I don't understand the point that you are making. Are you pointing out a parallel between the German Jews of the 1930s and today's liberals in the U.S.?
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #51
62. Yes, as in Post #24, same smears against Libs now as against Jews
Edited on Sun May-28-06 12:11 PM by UTUSN
This is a next-day response, plus, I typed this LONG reply with quotations and page numbers, pressed a wrong key and the whole thing DISAPPEARED, sheesh!

So, yes, throughout the Holocaust chapter JOHNSON lists the various anti-Semitic smears building up: That they were "disloyal," that they "betrayed the Army" in WW I, that they were underminers of established governance and culture, that they were responsible for the loss of the war, that they would be responsible for the next war, and on and on.

He only mentions FDR in 2 sentences, then in one paragraph, then in 2 more sentences. In the first 2 sentences, he links FDR with HITLER, as both being elected within 2 days of each other specifically because the voters blamed the incumbents for the Depression's unemployment.

In the paragraph, while admitting that both the U.S. and Britain agreed that the main way to help the Jews was to focus on DEFEATING HITLER decisively and ASAP, he blames FDR for not taking an aggressively pro-Jewish policy: p. 504 "A major obstacle to action was F.D. Roosevelt himself. He was both anti-Semitic, in a mild way, and ill informed."

Then in the last 2 sentence mention: p. 524 "...the Zionists benefited from what might be called luck or divine providence, according to taste. The first was the death of Roosevelt on 12 April 1945. In his last weeks he had turned anti-Zionist, following a meeting with King Ibn Saud after the Yalta Conference. The pro-Zionist presidential assistant, David Niles, later asserted: 'There are serious doubts in my mind that Israel would have come into being if Roosevelt had lived.' "

Meanwhile, JOHNSON scatters like fairy dust throughout the 2nd half of the book references to CHURCHILL as being "pro Zionist", many mentions.

There's a killer, delicious smackdown of JOHNSON by HITCHENS, dating to when JOHNSON's mistress went public about JOHNSON's liking to be spanked and called a bad boy, because she was sick of his hypocritical "family values" speeches.

Funny/odd how JOHNSON only refers to FDR as "F.D. Roosevelt."
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Yeah, I do see a certain parallel there
I certainly hope that we aren't met with the same fate that befell Europe's Jews in the 1930s.

But -- and I hope I'm not sounding paranoid here -- with our current administration, I wouldn't rule it out as a possibility. Here's what I had to say about that a few months ago:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=67175
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. The 3 alternatives for minorities: Assmilation, expulsion, extermination
That's how it ran with the Jews. Today's Hispanics are up to Stage 1 1/2 right now: Expulsion is on the table for undocumented immigrants. I've been accused of rabble rousing for bringing up "extermination." But if the Minutemen and the FULL POWER and thought they could get away with it, don't you think they WOULD (exterminate)?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. Yes I definitely do
I believe that there is a certain point of 'lack of morals' or 'lack of humanity' where, once past that point, it is nearly impossible to dream up a horror which that person is not capable of. Obviously, Hitler passed that point. I believe that Bush and many of his compatriots have passed it as well.

Most people IMO refuse to believe that simply because he is an American and he is our President. I think that an attitude like that is dangerously naive. History is full of instances where tyrants would stop at NOTHING to gain their ends. What possible evidence is there for believing that it couldn't happen in this country?
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UTUSN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #63
66. Excellent thread (yours) & link to HITCHENS on Paul JOHNSON
*********QUOTE********

http://www.salon.com/media/1998/05/28media.html


T H E_.R I S E_.A N D_.F A L L_.O F
_______Paul "Spanker" Johnson

THE RIGHT-WING HISTORIAN'S LONGTIME MISTRESS DEALS HIM THE UNKINDEST WHACK OF ALL.

.... So it was decidedly invigorating to learn, in the dog days of mid-May, that he had been exposed by his mistress of 11 years, the writer Gloria Stewart, as a spankee:

"Paul loved to be spanked and it was a big part of our relationship. I had to tell him he was a very naughty boy." ....

Stewart unmasked Spanker Johnson to the tabloids because she could not bear to read another word of his "family values" tripe in the press. As recently as March, interviewed by Jacob Weisberg for the New York Times Magazine, he had claimed to be an advisor to the late Princess Diana. "Don't commit adultery," he said, was his "chief advice" to the divine one. When various Tory MPs were found in a trouser-free condition not long ago, Johnson predicted the ruin of the state and said that adultery, especially when committed by those who opposed it in public, should be severely punished.

But here's the bizarre thing. Johnson is not just a cult figure wherever two or three spankers are gathered together. He is an adored object of the American Right. Norman Podhoretz loved "Intellectuals." Nixon used to send out Johnson volumes for Christmas. Oliver North was once overcome with admiration at seeing William Casey read a whole Johnson on a plane flight. Dan Quayle kept a copy of Johnson's awful "Modern Times" by him, and employed it as a prop against those who accused him of being no great reader. (When pressed for an exegesis of its content, he announced contentedly that it was "a very good historical book about history.")... ....

**************UNQUOTE*********
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Gee, I wasn't aware of that.
Was he married at the time (I take it that he was, thus the reference to adultery)?

Perhaps that partially explains some of his extraordinarily strange views.
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987654321 Donating Member (341 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:23 PM
Response to Original message
26. Well done!
This was a very well thought out and thought provoking piece of writing. I will make sure others see this.

Thank you for sharing.
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Sarah Ibarruri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
27. "Ann" Coulter will be the last one.
Edited on Sat May-27-06 10:29 PM by Sarah Ibarruri
When the Repugnican Revolution and the Contract on America are history, "Ann" Coulter will have to be dragged away by her own, kicking and screaming, spewing hatred. "Ann" Coulter hates the U.S. She loves corporations, the rich, and knows her hatred is keeping her rich. The right wing has always run on hatred gasoline.
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muntrv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
28. Tom DeLay said it's possible to support the troops
without supporting the president. Of course, that was during the war in Kosovo, when Clinton was in office.
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
29. No, we just hate Reich Wing Morans.
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nicknameless Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
30. Thank you for this great post.
Edited on Sat May-27-06 10:41 PM by nicknameless
So true that Liberals value the America that's based on our founding documents and principles.

IMO, many repubs also seem to value it both as some sort of sports team ("We're number one!") and a cash cow that they're always scheming to drain dry.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. Yes, a sports team
That's what I meant to say about "American exceptionalism", as used by Republicans. That's exactly how many of them think of it.

The idea of stopping a war and thereby "losing" is the worst thing they can imagine - it's like quitting right in the middle of the Super Bowl. That's the way that many of them feel, even if they have no idea how to explain why we're fighting the war in the first place, or what purpose it would serve to continue the war.
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bumblebee1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-27-06 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
32. I'm borrowing a few words from Al Franken
I gather from being on this board that you love America. You choose to love America as an adult. An adult would love someone with all it's worts and all. The neocons want you to love our country like a four year old loves his/her mommy and daddy. To a four year old, mommy and daddy are their whole world. Personally, I'd prefer to love this country as an adult.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #32
49. Yes -- I would call what they are looking for 'infantile devotion'
But not devotion to our country as it is or as it was designed to be by our Founding Fathers.

They want us to be devoted to their own warped version of their conception of our country -- a country that bullies the world in order to enhance the wealth of a minute fraction of its population, while providing lame self-serving excuses for our pre-emptive wars.

And then if we don't like it or complain about it, they say that we "hate America".
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cyclezealot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:45 AM
Response to Original message
33. We only hate their vision of America.
One based on selfishness, hate, inequality, and all-for-me, and the hell with everyone else. I sure hope that is not what America has become.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:53 AM
Response to Original message
35. media traitors push their lies. propaganda organ of a fascist state
history repeats
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farmbo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:33 AM
Response to Original message
38. How about "DU Exceptionalism"...another great journal entry!
K & R
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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
39. Funny how none of these brave republican patriots
will say it to my face.
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B Calm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
41. Republicans = Corporate Freedom and Individual Responsibility
Democrats = Corporate Responsibility and Individual Freedom!

In other words Republicans hate Individual Freedom! and thus hate what this country was founded on!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #41
81. How true
They've even defined corporations as "persons" so that they can have the constitutional rights of a real person, while at the same time avoiding most of the responsibilities of a real person.
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emanymton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
43. You Lose. "You Allow 'Them' To Set The Agenda ...
and then spend your time using 'their' terms to defend yourself." This is a guaranteed recipe for failure. Your whole essay begins from a defensive position of weakness and tries to make nice. Do not accept the original premise.

As for 'sound bites', ask how do those RW talking heads know what 'others' think? Is Ann Coulter saying he is an Islamic terrorist or a Liberal? Ann Coulter was stating his point of view but is not man enough to come out and say it.


FYI - I like your essay. I hate Ann Coulter because he is a liar.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. I don't understand what you mean
You say that I am using their terms to defend myself. And you say that I accept the original premise.

What is "their" terms that you feel I am using, and what false premise do you feel that I am accepting?
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Donkeykick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
45. WTF?
"Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do. They don't have the energy". – Ann Coulter


You can only take this as Ann trying her best to get the majority of the public leaning to the president again on this WOT.

Sorry Ann! But Dubya is still losing in that arena as well--the American people are getting sick of this prolonged encampment. So your MISSION is still NOT ACCOMPLISHED!:nopity:
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 08:36 AM
Response to Original message
48. Again your post shines above the rest. Excellent writing TFC!
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Maestro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:04 AM
Response to Original message
50. This is a keeper.
Thanks for posting it!
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Gold Metal Flake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
52. Republicans are liars. That is their main tactic.
Every statement contains a lie of some sort. They know that they are lying, and will lie to you about it. No one who supports Repukes or Repuke causes does so without lying. Amongst themselves, they take pride in their ability to lie. It's as simple as that.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
53. Right wingers hate America
THEY hate our freedom.

THEY are the ones who don't want freedom to continue in America.

THEY want a national religion, and so they hate the First Amendment.

THEY are afraid and think a government of unlimited powers can "protect" them and so THEY have a problem with the 4th, 5th and 6th Amendments.

America is a idea, and it is that idea that Right Wing Nuts just HATE.

They want to obliterate their personal identity into that of a grand leader, and they are so pathetic that Dubya will do.

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PublicRadioVet Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:24 AM
Response to Original message
54. I'm tired of "Blame America first" liberalism
Edited on Sun May-28-06 10:32 AM by PublicRadioVet
This might get me banned, but I think this needs to be said.

America is not the font of every evil in the world.

Yet you'd be hard pressed to think otherwise, listening to, or reading, some very well known liberal minds, both here at DU and out in the country at large.

It's like the United States gets ALL the blame any time anything goes wrong on the planet. We get all the blame for global warming. We get all the blame for Israel-Palestine. We get the blame for the rise of Islamism. We get the blame for poverty in third-world countries. We get the blame for famine and starvation in same. Militarily, we get the blame when we "fail" to intervene in one location, then we get blamed as "imperialists" when we DO intervene in another. If diplomatic processes ever erode or go bad in any important world affair, the U.S. is similarly blamed for "failing" to act, or, as often, acting "too much"; usually on behalf of "self interest", as if no other nation anywhere EVER acts in its own self interest.

I've not even addresses external blame from sources and people outside the U.S. I am speaking strictly of American citizens who, for whatever reasons, have made a parlor hobby out of taking any given problem, and turning that problem back around as somehow being the fault of the U.S; whether it's true or not.

Maybe this is just what happens when one nation is left to stand alone as the "superpower"? But even so, what causes a citizen of the U.S. to constantly and consistently find fault with his or her own country at every turn, in every situation, so that every American glass is half empty, and every move the country makes is the wrong move?

I was thinking of this when I read the Euston Manifesto the other morning before work. Thus passage struck me in particular:

6) Opposing anti-Americanism.
We reject without qualification the anti-Americanism now infecting so much left-liberal (and some conservative) thinking. This is not a case of seeing the US as a model society. We are aware of its problems and failings. But these are shared in some degree with all of the developed world. The United States of America is a great country and nation. It is the home of a strong democracy with a noble tradition behind it and lasting constitutional and social achievements to its name. Its peoples have produced a vibrant culture that is the pleasure, the source-book and the envy of millions. That US foreign policy has often opposed progressive movements and governments and supported regressive and authoritarian ones does not justify generalized prejudice against either the country or its people.


When a lot of conservatives (small c) say they are tired of liberals, I think what they are REALLY tired of is the want of some voiciferous liberals (not all of us, obviously) to knee-jerk fault the American experiment out of hand, or otherwise cherry pick American history so that only the sore points--slavery, the Japanese Internment, the Watts riots, etc.--get blown up as being representative of America et al, as if everything in the past two hundred years can be boiled down to something like, say, the Rodney King beating.

I think the above-named Euston manifesto is a very promising document that does much to straighten out the "unthinking" wing of liberalism both here in America and abroad. Because as a self-identified liberal who loves his country and serves in part-time, proudly wearing his country's flag on his BDU shoulder, I am beyond tired of listening to or reading about how America is this mighty shithole and the worst thing to ever happen in the history of the planet.

Because I think it's not true, and not only that, I have to say :wtf: to anyone who espouses this belief.

Like the manifesto says, the U.S. is not a perfect country with a perfect track record. But overall the U.S. still has far more roses than it does thorns, and it would nice if so much of the current complaint against Republicanism (not the same thing conservativism, I say) and the war in Iraq, did not degenerate into an America-bashing free-for-all.

OK, you can ban me now.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. Is this a response to my OP?
I wasn't aware that I engaged in any America bashing in my OP.

One thing that I did do was criticize our current administration. And it is impossible for me to ascertain whether you have a problem with any of that, or if instead you are just getting some long held grievances off your chest.

But if you disagree with anything specific that I said it is impossible for me to tell because you speak so much in generalities. I could respond to you if you told me what specifically I said that gets you so upset, or that you disagree with.
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PublicRadioVet Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. No, I'm just shedding light on why some c's think l's "hate" America
Edited on Sun May-28-06 11:02 AM by PublicRadioVet
I'm not trying to say that YOU blame America first.

I'm saying that we have too many on our side who run off at the mouth, when it comes to America's problems, and that when your average conservative's window on "liberalism" consists of the Michael Moores and Ward Churchills out there, is it any wonder they think "liberals hate America"?

This is not an accusation we liberals can afford to ignore or brush off as simple conservative ignorance. Yes, it would be nice of your average conservative read more widely and did a little policy wonking beyond Free Republic. But even I cringe when I read or hear some self-appointed spokesperson for liberalism get up and denounce our country. "Bowling for Columbine" made me positively ill, because it so thoroughly cherry picked the gun debate, and American history, as to be patently "America hating" in its tone and message.

I know many will disagree, but again, as someone who self-identifies liberal and has lived a pretty "liberal" life (interracial marriage, consistent Democratic voter, lives in a liberal state, uses alternative commuting, yadda yadda) I can see why conservatives are angry or upset at "liberals who hate America", because if you ask me, I think some liberals genuinely *DO* hate America, and I wish they would find a different hobby.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. I think there are a few things that should be said about this
I certainly don't brush off the accusation that "liberals hate America". But I do feel that, as a general statement it is highly misleading, and it is poisoness to our cause as well, since some people are taken in by such statements and consequently driven to side with the Bush administration, for example -- which is precisely why they spread such statements.

Obviously I don't mean to say by that that there aren't SOME people who call themselves liberal and are also filled with irrational hate and say a lot of things that they shouldn't. All political parties encompass some irrational people.

The kind of "hate" that you're referring to is a kind that may be more akin to "blame". But I think that there are some things that need to be considered when accusing someone of "hating America" because they put too much blame on it.

First, the essence of self-improvement is to look first to one's self in the assessment of blame. For example, if I get into a fight with my wife, I am more likely to improve my social skills and improve myself spiritually if I first consider the MY role in the fight, rather than reflexively blaming her. The same applies to international relationships. When Senator Durbin criticized our administration for its treatment of its prisoners of war, for example (rightly and courageously IMO), many Republicans criticized him because he failed to criticize Al Qaeda when he made his Senate speech. But they were missing the point. It would serve no useful purpose for Durbin to criticize Al Qaeda (except to save his own skin politically). He was bringing up a gross violation of international law (as well as moral law) on the part of our administration, and there was no logical need to bring Al Qaeda into that discussion.

Related to this is the fact that when one blames our government for something, that is often, if not usually, done for the purpose of trying to improve our country. The blamer is trying to bring attention to what he or she perceives as a serious wrong, in the hope that by doing so, that will in some way help to correct it.

Take Michael Moore, for example, since you brought him up. I do agree that he has sometimes exaggerated or cherry picked, though I can't think of a specific instance (I did hear that he did that in Bowling for Columbine, but I didn't catch it at the time, and I don't recall in what sense he did that). Anyhow, I think that his Farenheit 9-11 was an excellent film that called attention to an enormous problem, shortly before an election, admittedly with the purpose of influencing that election. Did he make any mistakes in that film? I am not aware of any, in fact I think that to be more accurate he could have gone a lot further than he did. I think that it was a very courageous effort on his part, and I think that he undertook that effort because of his love for his country, even if he did make some mistakes in it (and I'm not aware that he did).

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. PS
I hope you don't get banned for this post of yours. Personally, I welcome honest discussion of this sort, though I do find it difficult to respond to the kind of generalities that you speak of.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #54
61. We get the blame because we try to take over and run everything
That needs to be said, too.

Not that individuals among think we should always take over. But the country as a whole has a very authoritarian, we'll take care of things thank you, view to the rest of the world.

If you're going to claim you deserve to be in charge because you're the best, etc., and you're going to Protect Others For Their Own Good, blah, blah, blah, then if it doesn't go right you get the blame.

Enough of this martyred America crap, it looks immature and egotistical and unreasonable.

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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
75. as Mark Twain stated
"some people say my country right or wrong; I say my country right." Mark Twain was a true American and never minced words over the policies and the behavior of our government. It is our responsibility, as American citizens, to monitor and question our government. So, are we traitors to a government's immoral policy, a government that is allegedly representing us? Maybe you need to read some history on some of our government's dark deeds on foreign policy. Does our government represent "we the people" or is it just a quisling for the industrialists who do not have the average American's interest at heart? We are Americans, it is our DUTY to keep our government in check and to monitor it. We should be monitoring our government, not our government monitoring us!!!! "I love my country, but I question my government, to do otherwise, makes me a traitor to my country and what it stands for."
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #54
82. "Far more roses than thorns?"
You live in a repressed society and don't even know it. My guess is that you straight, white and male, sure everything is coming up roses for you. You live in a country where the one-half of 1 per cent of American families (just 419,590 out of a total of about 87 million households) possess 35 per cent of this country’s privately held wealth. We are the richest most powerful nation on earth yet there are people poor and hungry right here and WE allow it to happen.
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PublicRadioVet Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. I'm sorry you see the glass as half empty
I never said America did not have its problems. I just think blaming America for all the problems in the known universe, or otherwise acting like this is the worst possible country that anyone could possibly come up with, is not only incorrect, but ignorant.
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BlueJac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
55. Bush followers hate America.......it shows daily
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
58. I don't hate.
I'll say, though, that I don't feel the same emotional attachment to the nation I was born in as many do. I'm not patriotic. I don't revere any "father-land."

As far as my nation goes, there are things about it I respect and appreciate, and there are dysfunctions I see as a national disease. Interestingly, most of what conservative America feels "patriotic" about is part of the national disease I'd like to excise like a piece of rotten tissue.

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lilypad_567 Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
60. hi
i have this cd that i brought and i want y'all to listen to it, but i don't know how to get it from the cd to democratic underground. how do you do it...some please tell me. it is a really good cd about the how america got it way
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. I wish I could help you lilypad
Edited on Sun May-28-06 12:08 PM by Time for change
But I don't know how to do it either - sorry.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
70. Thanks to Ann Coulter, (A fine gold ring in a pigs snout.)
If not for her contempt of compassion and truth I would not have found DU. Yesterday I was surfing the net looking for any-thing good about her, said or other-wise. But to my amazed amusement there was absolutely nothing good that I could find. So I proceeded to check out all the disdain and malevolence people felt toward this contemptible Medusa. And low and behold I stumbled into the Democratic Underworld. … Holly shit… I’ve died and went to liberal heaven which I have been trying to find for about 31 years. There for I would like dedicate this reply to Ann Coulter and say something contemptible that she might say. “According to the Republican right; (right as in the truth) we get our information solely from Fox News the only true and uncensored source of information in the world. And screw the 71 percent of traitorous liberals in America and 95 percent of the rest of the world, who are just mad our guy stole the, (or woops) I mean won the elections.
Ok enough thanks to Ann, I hope she enjoys sucking the chrome off of the Republican Party hitch, and of course her spiteful back biting journey to hell.

But most of all sincere thanks to “Time for Change’s” and his awesome well researched perspective on reality as evident in his journal. Awesome Job!
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Thank you very much Larry
And welcome to DU :toast:

If you stick around you'll find many excellent articles here every day.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Thank you. And I do plan to stick around!
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
77. First, we should deal with the Republican accusation
that anybody who disagrees with them is a "liberal".

Not like there's anything wrong with being called a "liberal" (though the Repugs have tried to make it sound like it's the same as being a Commie). The point is, if someone simply calls out the G.O.P's B.S., the Repubs only know how to respond by making political accusations.
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Jara sang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
80. I don't hate America, I hate republicans.
They are all traitors.
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HuskerDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
84. I love America and I love the Chicago Cubs. Both are being
run right now by fools. I can criticize my Cubs without anyone questioning my love for them, so why do people question my love for America because I disagree with how it is being run?
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Because when you disagree with how are country is being run
Our pResident and his administration find that very threatening - and likely to interfere with their plans:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=67175
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PegDAC Donating Member (906 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
86. Timeforchange -
You have said it all here. May I send this forth into the world (giving you credit, of course)?

:toast: :yourock:
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #86
88. Absolutely!
Even if I said no, it would be your right to do it, since this is public information now.

Anyhow, I'm thrilled over the possibility that this could be put to use for productive purposes. Thanks.
:toast:
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 06:52 PM
Response to Original message
87. wonderful stuff
ttt
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Up2Late Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:20 PM
Response to Original message
89. Great stuff!
Bookmarked, Printed, unfortunately, too late to recommend (but it is on the DU front page, just in case you missed it).:applause:

You should write one of the main speeches for the 2008 Democratic Convention.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #89
90. Yes, I saw that, thank you very much
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-28-06 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
91. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-29-06 06:24 AM
Response to Reply #91
92. Actually, what we hate is the things that our idiotic and evil pResident
does.

He is ruining our country, and he is ruining the world.

If you think that criticizing that means that we hate America, that's very difficult for me to understand.
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