Breaking: Eyewitnesses to the Haditha massacre!!!

[shraby]

Posted at Dailykos by EZ Writer...tomorrow's Washington Post story, heartbreaking it is, too.:

The Washington Post has a chilling eyewitness account from Haditha, where Marines allegedly killed 24 civilians on Nov. 19.

BAGHDAD, Iraq--Witnesses to the slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines in the western town of Haditha say the Americans shot men, women and children at close range in retaliation for the death of a Marine lance corporal in a roadside bombing.

Aws Fahmi, a Haditha resident who said he watched and listened from his home as Marines went from house to house killing members of three families, recalled hearing his neighbor across the street, Younis Salim Khafif, plead in English for the lives of himself and his family. ``I heard Younis speaking to the Americans, saying: 'I am a friend. I am good,' '' said Fahmi. ``But they killed him, and his wife and daughters.''

(more)
<http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/5/26/213823/552>

[charlie]

1. Ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1

Zeus, have mercy...

The girls killed inside Khafif's house were ages 14, 10, 5, 3 and 1, according to death certificates.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html

[originalpckelly]

16. MY GOD!

President Bush had better start praying that hell doesn't exist, because if it does he will be burning there for eternity.

[Swamp Rat]

62. OH BLOODY HELL!!!!

THIS IS INFURIATING!!! :grr:

[Skittles]

119. I will wait for the evidence

I have to

[Erika]

2. An unjust war will never produce positive results.

An insane war with out reason, will produce only insane results.

Lack of sanity and leadership, all the way up to G W Bush.

[bullimiami]

14. THIS IS WHY YOU DONT GET INTO A WAR UNLESS YOU ABSOLUTELY

CANNOT AVOID IT.

these things happen in war. its not a fucking game. there are people killing people and people freaking out and killing more people.

[Erika]

18. There was no reason for us attacking Iraq

For the rest of it, can you say Kent State?

[Jane Austin]

22. This was one of my cheif arguments at the time for not going into Iraq.

Not only does war make monsters out of guys who were the assistant manager at the Sunglass Hut a month before, but you have no idea of the horrors that will be visited upon them and everyone else involved.

Even if you only saw this atrocity - - even if you tried to stop it - - there is no way such a scene wouldn't haunt your every waking and sleeping moment to the end of your days.

[Swede]

3. I bet they are spinning the old "a few bad apples" bs already.

Mylai all over again.

[maveric]

114. Some freep responses I've heard:

"Its a war and atrocities happen."
"Think of all of our guys they probably killed."
"Oh well...they should'nt have attacked us..."
"The stresses of war lead soldiers to blow off some steam,sometimes. Shit Happens."
"Those kids would have grown up to be terrorists anyway. We're nipping it in the bud."

And a few more so repulsive I will not post them here.

[moobu2]

4. I saw one of the little girls on CNN

I think she was 10 y/o. She said she played dead in order to survive, while her entire family was murdered. Everyone in her entire family is gone.

[AuntPatsy]

19. I listened to a conservative today say and this is the truth.

"I could care less if ten million Iraqians die as long as Americans do not"

No words.

[wtmusic]

26. If ten million "Iraqians" died

you can be sure Americans would eventually pay the price.

[AuntPatsy]

27. That was a quote, he named that number, sickening isn't it

[wtmusic]

30. Another smug armchair warrior

just what the country, and the world, needs. :eyes:

[AuntPatsy]

32. I cannot understand that mindset and yet I have heard it before

and far too often for comfort....

Oh and the world has plenty of them.

[Catrina]

77. A similar sentiment was expressed here on DU recently, not quite as

blatant, but along those lines. We have some interesting new posters here lately to say the least.

[Blue Belle]

101. Well those posters won't be here for long...

they have a way of weeding themselves out of the mix.

[Bad Penny]

79. I've had exchanges with bush followers on various messageboards

who said pretty much the same thing.

sure makes you ponder

[MH1]

82. Did you ask him which church he goes to on Sunday?

Or is he honest about admitting he's not a Christian?

[leesa]

87. And this person probably does not consider himself a bigot.

[SammyWinstonJack]

93. What does this bonehead think the Iraqis did to us that we should

slaughter them?

[kittenpants]

96. A couple years ago when there was an earthquake in Iran

and tens of thousands of people died, my mother-in-law said, "Well, good, now there are less of them that our boys will have to kill!" I told her then that the people of Iran actually like Americans (because she was obviously confused as to who we were at war with), but in her jingoistic hatred just wants all of "them" dead.

[shadowknows69]

107. Anyone else really embarrassed to be a homo sapien lately?

I'd rather be a dog. dogs will murder the occasional squirrel but that's really more of a food chain thing than an evil thing.

[tavalon]

120. Nope

But I am pretty mortified to be an American, specifically one who hasn't taken to the streets in revolution against this fascist monstrosity that has taken over our country.

[Mr_Spock]

103. I want that quote on my bumper.

Compassionate conservatives my fucking ass. :mad:

[magellan]

5. This is not the first time we've heard of innocent Iraqis

...pleading for their lives. It's just the first time the Pentagon couldn't cover it up.

Terrorists. We have become the enemy.

[AuntPatsy]

6. There are no words.

:cry:

[Beelzebud]

7. We ARE the new Nazis.

[NJ_Lib]

84. Ouch...

truth hurts...

[datasuspect]

89. nothing NEW about it

our military has been doing this shit througout its history.

[Jara sang]

8. I can't believe the Washington Post would print this shit!

How dare they print the truth! And on Memorial Day weekend too? How the hell am I going to be able to honor the troops by consuming mass quantities of beer and grilled meats with this floating around in my head?:sarcasm:

[pansypoo53219]

12. you forgot the ultimate tribute

shopping at memorial sales.

[GrumpyGreg]

9. Man's inhumanity to man never ceases to amaze me.

Our four footed animal friends treat eachother better and only kill for survival.

[Erika]

10. W fed this mindset into the military by calling Iraq evil

He had no remorse, what-so-ever, for the 13 year old Iraqi boy whose arms were shot off in the Shock and Awe bombing campaign against innocent Iraqis.

Make no mistake, a CIC is the accountable party for the military. Of course, W won't accept accountability. He pays some whipping boy to suffer his deserved punishment.

[Stinky The Clown]

11. This travesty, this horror, is not solely the work of one platoon of Marin

To be sure, that platoon of Marines needs to be held accountable.

But the military is ALL ABOUT responsibility and the chain of command.

As the blood of My Lai was on the hands of many more than Lt. Calley, so is the blood of these innocents. Westmoreland and MacNamara escaped.

Rumsfeld should not. HE is the motherfucker who caused this. RUMSFELD is the one.

Rumsfeld killed these innocents as surely as if he had pulled the trigger with his own red hands. Rumsfeld caused these Marines to do what they did.

Have you no honor, Mr. Rumsfeld?

Where is **your** outrage, Mr. Rumsfeld?

Where is your ..... humanity ..... Mr. Rumsfeld?

[Erika]

13. Rumsfeld is loved by the Boy Scouts

Future cannon fodder for imperialists.

[Bigmack]

15. If anybody thinks they didn't do it...

you're wrong. They did it, alright.

The NCO's fucked up and didn't control their men... the junior officers fucked up by not making sure the NCO's were in control. The generals fucked up with a lousy stretegy. Those fuckups aren't nearly as big and deadly as Dumbya's fuckups and Rummy's fuckups, though.

The Iraqis are dead... and our Marines are screwed for life.

All the shit their parents and priests taught them disappeared because combat and the Marines made them new people.... people with no humanity for those few minutes.

Those guys will bear the guilt of those deaths no matter what the courts do... and Rummy and Dumbya will skate.

[Erika]

17. W and Rummy chose not to listen to what Vietnam taught us

They tossed out the lessons completely and here we are again.

[Kagemusha]

20. That's how breakdowns happen, yeah.

That's why I was swearing at my computer monitor about command responsibility when Abu Ghraib came out. I mean, if generals and colonels won't take responsibility for anything, and no one's willing to stand and MAKE them responsible, they simply will not exercise tight control - that would be "interfering with the boots on the ground" - and then something like this happens, because people get the idea in their heads they can get away with whatever they want and nothing will happen to them. And then when they do something like this, the chain of comand tries to cover it up.

This wasn't ordered from high up, but by no means should we call it an "accident".

[MnFats]

21. God have mercy on the nation that countenances atrocities...

...like this one.
....this is shameful beyond measure.
....we should just leave, now. the Iraqis would be grateful if we just got the hell out of their country.

[tavalon]

121. Why should God have mercy on such a nation ?

[PublicRadioVet]

23. And if it all turned out to be a total hoax...

...you would all insist on believing it anyway, because too many of you have but a single vision of the American soldier: derranged, maladjusted, bloodthirsty.

Doesn't sound like anyone I have known in the service.

But what do I know. I am just another "killer".

If this story has a shred of truth, the Marines involved will face UCMJ.

I await a full and thorough investigation by multiple groups before I believe anything posted at Daily Kos.

[ConsAreLiars]

24. So sad.. "There are none so blind as those who will not see."

Go here. Tell me which of those 1000's of photos are hoaxes.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

[Igel]

100. The photos are mostly likely real in every case.

The causation may not be as ascribed.

There's no way of knowing, in many cases: we can believe they're all due to Anglo-American atrocities or we can believe they're all due to suicide bombers, or even to exploding marmosets let loose among the population, it doesn't affect reality or say anything about the real causes.

There have been too many instances of truthiness from Iraqi witnesses: Eye-witnesses saying a US missile created some problem when the forensics says otherwise, claims made that are obviously counterfactual with the physical evidence.
First, eye-witnesses have a great predisposition to mis-remember things. Second, 'face' and honor frequently outrank truth, both positive face and negative face. Separating out the two sources of error is difficult; it takes investigation to actually uncover the truth and falsehoods, if that's even possible.

But people are free to believe whatever they want.

[wtmusic]

28. Don't hold your breath

for a "thorough investigation". This has nothing to do with Daily Kos--the story has been in the press since it happened. Just don't expect coverage out of CNN or FOX.

And if you expect any kind of justice out of UCMJ, I have two words for you: Abu Ghraib.

You can't back up ANYONE at DU having your "single vision" of the American soldier. The ones with the single vision of the American soldier are you and Don Rumsfeld.

[Breeze54]

33. That was pretty harsh! gheesh!

HE is a veteran. Take a chill pill!
:grr:

[wtmusic]

38. Oh come off it

What's harsh is the unpleasant reality of American soldiers murdering and torturing innocent civilians. And just like Abu Ghraib they will get a slap on the wrist when they should get life in prison. Why? Because the dead were brown people, of course.

As long as the military fails to come clean with its own failings they will get NO benefit of the doubt. They made their own bed.

I'm sure PublicRadioVet is an honorable soldier. PRV is also in denial.

[Breeze54]

41. So? You have already convicted them?

Now who's harsh??

You are a Vigilante!

"self-appointed doer of justice"; "member of a vigilance committee"

[wtmusic]

48. Absolutely not...with flimsy evidence like eyewitnesses and video

ANYTHING could have happened. We learned that lesson at the Ramadi wedding where guests suddenly whipped out AK's and started shooting Americans! Those crafty insurgents will do anything to cover their tracks. And we're only six months into the "investigation". Time will tell. Time will...z-z-z-z.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1220750,00.html

[Breeze54]

51. I'll wait for the trial... TY! ...n/t

[Breeze54]

31. Not true of everybody...........

Innocent until proven guilty.

That IS America!!!!!!!

Semper Fi !

[Mika]

98. Presumed innocent until proven guilty - is in the eyes of the courts only.

If a person has actually murdered someone they are still guilty of murder no matter how a court finds them.


'Presumed innocent until proven guilty' is only how the US court system is supposed to function. The rest of us are free to presume what we want to.

That is America.

[Pastiche423]

34. Good god!

You don't believe the Washington Post, nor the "top" marine that left for Iraq yesterday? How about all of the broadcast news that reported it?

What is your DD-224?

[Breeze54]

37. good gawd, is right! .... n/t

[Pastiche423]

54. Let me ask you something

If you eye witnessed a multiple murder - you saw it all, would you call the murderers innocent?

[Breeze54]

55. I said Day in Court.....

They are entitled to due process.

I do not know if they are guilty or innocent.

Do you?

[Pastiche423]

57. Please answer my question

If you eye witnessed a multiple murder - you saw it all, would you call the murderers innocent?

[Breeze54]

60. It isn't

up to me to decide and there might be extenuating circumstances.
I don't have all the facts, so I am not in a position to judge.

All I am desperately trying to say is, 'let them have their day in court'!
That IS the American way, is it not?
:shrug:

[Pastiche423]

63. The American way

is to slide it under the table, all the while telling the public they are getting to the bottom of this.

See: Abu Graibe

[Breeze54]

65. That isn't the

American way.

That is the corrupt usurpers holding court in our government buildings.

The criminals, we have all banded together to oust! That isn't America!!

Have you lost sight? Faith?

Please...think back to when America followed 'some' of the rules!

It's been at least five years, the year 2000 it really started going down hill. :cry:

But it's happened before.

It always does when the people take their votes for granted and turn a blind eye...

WE ARE ALL GUILTY.

:(

[Pastiche423]

110. Is this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2309299

[Kailassa]

49. Many of us here know people we love and care about

who are over there fighting. And we all at least know others we care about who have relatives fighting. PRV, we love these guys who have landed in this abominable situation, but that does not mean we will turn a blind eye to what is going on.

The training these soldiers are put through teaches them to consider Iraqis as subhumans, as that is the only way to get soldiers to kill in an obviously unjust war of aggression.

Combine that with the never-ending horrors these soldiers are forced to endure, living in constant danger and seeing their friends killed and mutilated. Stir in a lack of discipline, lying leaders, cover-ups of torture where it is made obvious the only thing the government objects to is the facts being made public ...

You can see how it is inevitable in this situation that some troops will crack and go on rampages like this. It is a tragedy that these things have been done to Iraqis. It is also a tragedy that these things have been done to our soldiers. They will have to live with what they have done for the rest of their lives. I'm not against punishment for the guilty, but I do believe no inflicted punishment could be as severe as just having to live the rest of their lives with this on their consciences.

And, before you suggest we hate our soldiers, look at what Republican government has done to decrease assistance for returning vets. It the Dems who care and are fighting for your rights there. We care, the government doesn't.

[Breeze54]

53. Not to mention....

two and three tours and PTSD soldiers being returned and re-deployed.

Even when they are ill.....psychologically, as if the military cares... HA!

I'm sorry if a whole lot of you are ready to condemn, but they are innocent,

Until they have their day in court! Until proven otherwise.

If not?

Then you are no better than the heathens who toppled the govenment of the USA!

The very people you protest for usurping your rights!!!

Yet you take these soldiers rights away by your words!

Have not the soldiers any rights? They are now condemned to no mans land?

What have we truly sunk to in this 'great' country? :sarcasm:

My gawd.....

:cry: :cry:

[High Plains]

111. Sure, they can have their day in court. I look forward to it.

[Erika]

52. Get lost buddy (respectfully)

My nephew has served two tours in Iraq in Marine kill squads.

You also need to be educated that the only designation for a soldier is an Army person. You don't call other troops soldiers. There are Soldiers, Sailors, Marines, and Airmen.

[Clarkie1]

61. The Washington Post is a credible source.

Innnocent until proven guilty yes, but the invidence seems pretty overwhelming at this point.

[Ms. Toad]

92. Then try the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html

My Lai probably didn't sound like anyone you knew either, but this kind of behavior is the logical byproduct of the military's deliberate destruction of our natural or culturally ingrained inclination against killing each other. Once the walls have been torn down with respect to other military combatants at least in a small group of people they are torn down (or at least considerably weakened) with respect to all killing.

[Mr_Spock]

97. Well, a lot of active duty are posting on "non-political" sites

Several have called the Iraqi's "dirt-bags" and have stated that "you can't trust any of them" and were waxing macho about the Falluja attack and how satisfying it was to bust doors down and blow them away. I don't post this stuff because it is just heresay, but I can vouch for the attitude and that these folks realy are or were stationed in Iraq.

[Divernan]

117. Tell it to the Marines - oh wait, they already knew & covered it up.

The article reports that a military intelligence team took the pictures shortly after the shooting stopped. So the military knew from the getgo that there had been a slaugher of unarmed civilian men, women and children, but tried to cover it up.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-marines27may27,0,7543928.story?track=tottext

Photos Indicate Civilians Slain Execution-Style
An official involved in an investigation of Camp Pendleton Marines'
actions in an Iraqi town cites `a total breakdown in morality.'
By Tony Perry and Julian E. Barnes, Times Staff Writers
May 27, 2006

WASHINGTON — Photographs taken by a Marine intelligence team have convinced investigators that a Marine unit killed as many as 24 unarmed Iraqis, some of them "execution-style," in the insurgent stronghold of Haditha after a roadside bomb killed an American in November, officials close to the investigation said Friday.The pictures are said to show wounds to the upper bodies of the ictims,who included several women and six children. Some were shot in the head and some in the back, congressional and defense officials said.

One government official said the pictures showed that infantry Marines from Camp Pendleton "suffered a total breakdown in morality and leadership, with tragic results."The case may be the most serious incident of alleged war crimes in Iraq by U.S. troops. Marine officers have long been worried that Iraq's deadly insurgency could prompt such a reaction by combat teams.

An investigation by an Army general into the Nov. 19 incident is to be delivered soon to the top operational commander in Iraq. A separate criminal investigation is also underway and could lead to charges ranging from dereliction of duty to murder.

Most of the fatal shots appear to have been fired by only a few of the Marines, possibly a four-man "fire team" led by a sergeant, said officials with knowledge of the investigation, who spoke on condition of anonymity. The same sergeant is suspected of filing a false report downplaying the
number of Iraqis killed, saying they were killed by an insurgent's bomb and that Marines entered the Iraqis' homes in search of gunmen firing at them. All aspects of his account are contradicted by pictures, statements by Marines to investigators and an inspection of the houses involved, officials said. Other Marines may face criminal charges for failing to stop the killings or for failing to make accurate reports.

[Laurab]

118. Welcome to DU - but I've only seen gratitude for soldiers

and a LOT of veterans on here. We all think the American soldier is "deranged, maladjusted, bloodthirsty"? That's interesting because I've NEVER gotten that impression on here. I see a lot of gratitude on here, and sadness for what our troops are being put through.

I worry every day that my nephew who's presently in Iraq isn't going to come home. There are mothers of soldiers, veterans, fathers of soldiers on here, and your first sentence is an insult to all of us.

But, hey, it's probably just the librul media making it up. And the eyewitnesses are lying, cause they're probably librul too.

I have tremendous respect for soldiers, I've read a number of books written by them about their tours of duty, and the terms you say I think of them in couldn't be further from the truth.

The fact remains that these things have happened before in the military, and apparently, are happening again. I would guess it would be easy to "snap" in the conditions some of our soldiers are in in Iraq, and I believe that probably happened. I DON'T believe they're "deranged, maladjusted or bloodthirsty", although I do believe your pResident is.

[Breeze54]

25. KIA - Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas ?

19-Nov-2005 9 | US: 9 | UK: 0 | Other: 0

US Master Sergeant Anthony R. C. Yost Mosul - Ninawa Hostile - hostile fire - suicide car bomb
US Private Christopher M. Alcozer Mosul - Ninawa Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire, grenades
US Lance Corporal Tyler J. Troyer Al Karmah (near) - Anbar Hostile - hostile fire - small arms fire
US Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas Haditha (near) - Anbar Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US Specialist Michael J. Idanan Bayji - Salah ad Din Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US Specialist Dominic Joseph Hinton Bayji - Salah ad Din Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US Corporal Jonathan F. Blair Bayji - Salah ad Din Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US Staff Sergeant Edward Karolasz Bayji - Salah ad Din Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack
US 1st Lieutenant Dennis W. Zilinski Bayji - Salah ad Din Hostile - hostile fire - IED attack

http://icasualties.org/oif/prdDetails.aspx?hndRef=11-2005

:cry:

http://www.fallenheroesmemorial.com/oif/profiles/terrazasmiguel.html

KILO COMPANY:

1. LCpl Miguel Terrazas was a rifleman in the 1st squad, 3rd platoon, Kilo Company.

He was killed on the field of battle in Iraq on 19 Nov 2005.

Recently I wrote his father who lives in El Paso, TX.

A few days ago, Mr. Terrazas wrote me a very nice letter
with a copy of the Kilo Company Memorial Service bulletin.

In part, his letter to me said this:

"..Dear Lieutenant Colonel Regal,
It is with great sincerity that I thank you for your condolences and comforting words.
Words of kindness during a time of deep sadness and grief make a difference.
We appreciate that my son, Lance Corporal Miguel Terrazas, is recognized, honored,
and respected among his fellow Marines and so many all over the United States.
We are truly moved and touched and proud even more so.
We thank you for your service and dedication to our country and all your acts of bravery.
May God bless you and keep you safe.
We wish you a peaceful, healthy and happy New Year.
With kindest regards,
Martin Terrazas... Semper Fi!
06 Jan 2006..."

http://www.3onevet.com/kilositrep22.htm

---------------------------------

I only posted this because he was already gone when the brutality happened.
:(

[dysfunctional press]

29. hearts and minds...

but we're supposed to win them over, not scatter them over the pavement.

[Breeze54]

35. Innocent till PROVEN GUILTY .....

Am I still in AMERICA?? What happened to THE RULE OF LAW??

"INNOCENT TILL PROVEN GUILTY"?????? RING A BELL??????? :shrug:

You ALL should be ashamed, with all your ghoolish comments!

Ask yourselves this?

How many tours have they done?

Have any done two and three STOP LOSS TOURS?

ARE ANY SUFFERING FROM PTSD????????

DO YOU KNOW?? DO YOU CARE??

DO YOU HAVE ANY FACTS YET???????

:nuke:

[ConsAreLiars]

40. There is no doubt that the massacre was committed by US Marines.

The only question is which ones butchered which of the victims. There is no doubt that the blood is on the hands of those who sent them there on a mission to "shock and awe" the population of Iraq into compliance with the neo-con vision of world domination through brute force.

These particular murderers are also victims of that war -- they were de-humanized by being forced to serve as agents of a thoroughly evil master. They were turned into monsters by the powers they served, and if they have any humanity left, they will suffer for the rest of their lives for what they have done. But they are not innocent, not any more.

[Breeze54]

42. "But they are not innocent, not any more."

And you know this how??? :shrug: Are you psychic?

[ConsAreLiars]

45. Well, if you believe that someone can murder children and remain

in a state of "innocence," well, I guess we'll have to disagree.

[girl gone mad]

75. Innocent until proven guilty only applies to the jury..

hearing the case. The rest of us are free to pass judgement as we please, since we have no hand in the fate of the defendent(s).

[High Plains]

112. See no evil. Maybe if you yell loud enough, it will go away.

[RagingInMiami]

36. We've created enemies that have not yet been born

Enemies who will come into this world knowing it was the Americans who destroyed their country and killed their countrymen. Enemies that will hate us for the rest of this godforsaken century.

[Breeze54]

39. that's what they said about the Vietnamese..... n/t

[ConsAreLiars]

43. The Vietnamese had leaders and an ideology that was very clear

in distinguishing between the crimes of the leaders of the US and the people of the US. They also had a religion that was not based on a monotheistic tribalism that taught vengeance as a virtue. Wishful thinking to compare those two unjust wars.

[Breeze54]

44. and they came to the USA and live and work here....are citizens now...

[ConsAreLiars]

46. You can't read ??? (n/t)

[Breeze54]

47. You don't know the meaning of "INNOCENT TILL PROVEN GUILTY"? n/t

[wtmusic]

50. You have an awful lot of faith that military courts

will dispense justice, given their track record over the last three years.

[Breeze54]

56. Don't put words in my mouth.

That's your interpretation.

[Raksha]

66. No, YOU don't know the meaning of "innocent until proven guilty."

That phrase has NO meaning and no applicability outside of a court of law...PERIOD! It has nothing to do with individual reactions, expressions of criticism and/or speculation on a political discussion board. I usually have to remind the freepers on another board of that fact, because they use that phrase constantly to try and squelch discussion every time one more atrocity involving Republicans or the war in Iraq comes to light. Nobody is talking about lynching the Marines, unless you consider this thread a "lynching." That's hardly necessary, considering that what they did will torture them enough and more than enough for the rest of their lives.

[Breeze54]

68. Yes I do and

who are you to attack me?

They are innocent until they are proven guilty.

That is the law in the United States of America.

Besides, you chose to take my comment/reply to another and twist it as a singular statement.

Please try to stay within the context of the discourse.

the United States Constitution guarantees that an accused is "..innocent until proven guilty.."

the meaning of "..innocent until proven guilty.." derives from the fifth amendment

What this means, in plain terms, is that constitutionally you cannot be executed, imprisoned,
or fined without the proper course of justice taking place. As you found out, due process,
itself, is not defined in the constitution, but is universally recognized as meaning what we
term as "a fair trial."

[Raksha]

72. So who's talking about doing any of that?

Re >>What this means, in plain terms, is that constitutionally you cannot be executed, imprisoned, or fined without the proper course of justice taking place. As you found out, due process,
itself, is not defined in the constitution, but is universally recognized as meaning what we term as "a fair trial."

Who here was talking about executing or imprisoning ANYONE without due process of law? This isn't a court, nor is it a lynch mob. It's a friggin' DISCUSSION BOARD! Discussion is WHAT WE DO here, and no topic is off limits. The phrase "innocent until proven guilty" has no meaning in this context because we aren't convicting or sentencing anyone.

You are using that phrase exactly the way freepers use it--to try and stifle expressions of outrage and horror that are NORMAL in this context. I'm not saying you are a freeper, because I sincerely hope you are not. But I've seen that phrase used WAY too often to try and shut people up and I don't like it and I'm going to say so.

[Breeze54]

73. I am

expressing MY outrage ...if you don't like that I cite the rule of law, so be it.
That's your perogative.

"nor is it a lynch mob." .... I'm not so sure of that, but that's my opinion.

"constitutionally, everyone is entitled to a fair trial."
Why do you have a problem with that? :shrug:
That is merely a citation of the law. Does that bother you?

If you read some of the comments here, some of the posters
have already tried and convicted the accused.
Didn't you read all the responses?

People are entitled to express their outrage and horror. I agree.
I have expressed mine.

Just because I disagree with some of the conclusions, doesn't make me wrong or them right.

So? What's your beef?
:shrug:

[Erika]

58. Vietnamese and Arabs are very different cultures n/t

[Clarkie1]

59. War is Hell.

This is an example of why war should only be employed as a last resort. What I feel when reading this is more anger towards Bush, because he created this situation. I feel great sadness for those who lost their lives, and sad for the Marines involved who have essentially also lost theirs. The war has destroyed them psycholgically, and they will never be the same after having done this. Mostly I feel sorry for the innocent Iraqis.

All that said, I hope people remember that these there are more than 150,000 American servicepeople in Iraq. The vast majority of them would never commit atrocities like this under any circumstances, and are trying to do good. We can debate whether or not at this point they can do any good, but nevertheless on this Memorial we should respect those who have given their lives honorably, and those still serving who are serving honorably.

[Erika]

64. My Marine nephew in a kill squad

in Iraq literally scraped up the remnants of his dead buddies.

In an insane war, with an insane rationale, I can certainly see why these killings could take place.

We never belonged over there. Never.

[Breeze54]

67. We never should have been there....

ever! I agree!

:hug:

[Erika]

70. You need to understand, that under the W's insane

war rationale, the enemy doesn't take one stance, or one projection. The Shock and Awe philosophy of this war department was passed down on an innocent population with the force of the U.S. Government.

[BigBearJohn]

69. The thing that bugs me is how EASY it is to sit in our armchairs and judge

How many in this thread have served 3 tours in Iraq, with hardly a break,
being separated from family, children and friends -- in the blazing heat,
in insufferable conditions, with piss poor equipment, never knowing which Iraqii
is going to shoot off your head.. not being able to tell the difference between
friend and foe... and having to watch your BEST FRIEND dying in your arms,
convulsing after having a side of their head blown off from some roadside IED.

I honestly don't know if *I* could hold onto my "humanity". I haven't spent
month after month after month, in that awful country under
unbearable pressure with no support from this administration.

For myself, I personally don't feel like I am in a position to judge any Marine who
has served in Iraq. I do feel like I am in a position to judge those who have
sent our young people to war and as a result have turned them into animals.

My best friend was a Marine who served in Vietnam. He told me horror stories of
young children entering their camp begging for food. As the child came close
to a tent full of soldiers, a hidden bomb would go off, blowing up the child
and everyone around him. It was unbelievable that the enemy could send
their own children into the American camps with hidden bombs, but it happened.
So, believe it or not, more than a few Vietnamese children were shot upon entering
those American camps. Horrible but true (according to my friend).

War is one of the most horrible things any human being could have to endure.
It's hard enough for me to drive along a freeway and see some poor motorist
dying from a car accident, let alone having to watch my best friend fighting
alongside me get his head blown off without warning.

How about walking a mile in their shoes before judging them so severely?
Many of these Marines are barely out of high school. Children themselves.

Can't we at least try to look at the whole picture before so easily condemning
them to hell? It's the least we can offer them for putting their lives on the line.

[Erika]

71. My nephew went into the Marines at 18

and he's back from his 2nd tour. He saw hell. Could he have trouble in determining the enemy? You bet.

W's own interpretation of the enemy was insane.

[NJ_Lib]

85. Very well put... You are exactly right...

Thank you... :cry:

[Nickster]

95. Exactly my thoughts. This is what happens when you push the military

to the point of breaking. These poor kids are getting mentally broken down each and every day. I can't imagine living through three tours like these kids have and being under the constant stress of not knowing who's friend and who's foe. These incidents are bound to happen.

[SPKrazy]

99. Remember "They Are All Volunteers"

is the spin that the * admin has put on these soldiers serving 3 tours

bullshit

none of them volunteered to fight * dirty oil wars

[TahitiNut]

106. Even such portrayals cannot convey the utter insanity of a 'world' ...

... in a combat zone. While there are seemingly understandable anecdotes about the horrors of young women and children carrying satchel charges and other conditions easily seen as horrifying and bizarre, nothing can convey the everyday insanity ... the thousands upon thousands of assaults on one's mind that are the daily surreality of living in a combat zone.

There's something about the mere discussion of such things from the comforts of being 5,000 miles away and wallowing in comtemplation and relection that lends a understandability to such circumstances that just does not exist when you're there.

To expect a sane person to behave sanely in a world that's completely insane and incomprehensible is beyond reason. What absolutely must be accepted is that "up" is not "up" and "down" is not "down" in a world gone insane. All the 'rules' of rational thought become FOREIGN when one exists in such a context. To even survive mentally, one must innoculate one's self with some level of insanity - become a 'nut' - sort of like a flotation device.

It takes years for a relatively healthy mind to assimilate and recover from such an experience. Years.

[Breeze54]

74. Two Hangmen

http://www.jwsrockgarden.com/jw02vvaw.htm#songindex

Two Hangmen
Terry Talbot (1969)

As I Rode Into Tombstone On My Horse, His Name Was Mac
I Saw What I'll Relate To You, Goin' On Behind My Back
It Seems The Folks Were Up In Arms, A Man Now Had To Die
For Believin' Things That Didn't Fit The Laws They'd Set Aside
The Man's Name Was 'I'm A Freak', The Best That I Could See
He Was The Executioner, A Hangman Just Like Me
I Guess That He'd Seen Loopholes, From Workin' With His Rope
He'd Hung The Wrong Man Many Times, So Now He Turned To Hope

He'd Talk To All The People From His Scaffold In The Square
He Told Them Of The Things He Found;
But They Didn't Seem To Care
He Said The Laws Were Obsolete, A Change They Should Demand
But The People Only Walked Away, He Couldn't Understand

The Marshall's Name Was Uncle Sam, He Said He'd Right This Wrong
He'd Make The Hangman Shut His Mouth, If It Took Him All Year Long
He Finally Arrested Freak, And Then He Sent For Me
To Hang A Fellow Hangman From A Fellow Hangman's Tree

It Didn't Take Them Long To Try Him In Their Court Of Law
He Was Guilty Then Of Thinking A Crime Much Worse Than All
They Sentenced Him To Die So His Seed Of Thought Can't Spread
And Infect The Little Children; That's What The Law Had Said

So The Hangin' Day Came 'Round And He Walked Up To The Noose
I Pulled The Lever But Before He Fell, I Cut Him Loose
They Called It All Conspiracy And That I Had To Die
So To Close Our Mouths And Kill Our Minds, They Hung Us Side By Side

And Now We're Two Hangmen, Hangin' From A Tree
That Don't Bother Me At All
Two Hangmen Hangin' From A Tree
That Don't Bother Me At All


FREE DOWNLOAD of the SONG
http://www.jwsrockgarden.com/Two_Hangmen.ram

[sweetheart]

76. Bush -> war criminal -> mass murderer -> indict the bastard

The marines answer to their bloodthirsty commander and thief,
bush is the murderer here, cheney is the murderer, and the
soldiers are just executioners. The moral swamp they
call home is lower than any civil society on earth.

[JohnnyLib]

78. This incident has surfaced,

call it Mylai 2. You can bet there are others that won't surface, except in the PTSD cases from decent men and women who experience horror of such types and are ordered to not talk about it. Unholy war.

[Igel]

104. But one problem is determining

how many other such cases won't surface.

Some assume that if none are reliably reported--and there have been so many incidents unreliably reported that one initially has little choice but to take this kind of thing with a grain of salt--then there are none.

Others assume that if none are reliably reported, it doesn't matter--they must be rampant. Lack of reporting of atrocities --> existence of atrocities.

Then there are those that don't update their knowledge-base as the unreliableness of reporting comes to light. A shrine's mostly destroyed in an explosure, locals claim they personally witnessed a plane dropping a bomb, people take it at face value, uncritically; then it turns out the actual blast was in the adjacent school, and originated in the basement, and had the wrong kind of explosive for an aerial bomb (conclusion: IED or home-grown explosives went off prematurely). But still, "a US plane intentionally bombed the shrine" is firmly planted in some people's minds. Surely nobody would lie and say the militants (the people with guns that could kill their kids) did it, or that (gasp) people in their clan destroyed the shrine. Only the US military can lie, as though truthfulness depended on skin color.

I believe atrocities have occurred; that most of the reports of atrocities are so exaggerated or self-contradictory as to be almost meaningless; that atrocities are less frequent than reported; that sometimes they involve mistakes (making them tragedies, not atrocities), but some insist on assuming the worst and take them uniformly as intentional; and that if people are keeping track, they'll realize that the balance of atrocities (as opposed to errors) is not as they think.

[OneBlueSky]

80. diehard neocons will discount these eyewitness accounts because . . .

the witnesses are Iraqi . . . "What do you expect them to say?" will be the reasoning . . .

besides, if they ain't Americans, they don't count anyhow . . . :sarcasm:

[entanglement]

81. This guy should hide before they kill him, too

n/t

[NJ_Lib]

83. I watched an International report where a 6yo girl...

... who apparently survived this massacre but lost her entire family, was interviewed and I'll never forget what she said as long as I live... She spoke in Arabic and was translated by the British journalists there.

She said: "The Americans, they kill people and then they say "Sorry"... I hate them..."

That will be stuck in my mind forever... What a disgrace...

[Toots]

86. Every cloud has a silver lining

This could be the impetus for getting us the hell out. America might be so revolted by these actions that the demand becomes just too strong for the Administration to deny. Get out of Iraq now...Blood is on our hands and I am sickened by it..

[sweettater]

90. After reading this thread in its entirety

I am completely drained. :cry: I'll be back, got to take a break to get myself together.

[Terran1212]

88. If it takes this long to find out about one massacre

How many more of these events are there?

[leftchick]

108. they never talk about the massacres from the sky

over Iraq and Afghanistan. The daily bombing campaigns across both countries massacre whole families yet it is never talked about. :(

[tblue37]

91. "Democracy is on the march."

"Let freedom reign."

[in_cog_ni_to]

94. This is the ONLY reason they admitted to the massacre....THERE ARE

WITNESSES! This just makes me SICK. Winning hearts and minds in the ME? I don't think so! Are we creating terrorists faster than we can kill them??? YES WE ARE!

Those sick bastards! How could anyone ever do such a thing! Man, the days of Vietnam are coming back. This is so damn sad.:cry:

[BuyingThyme]

105. Yes, they are doing things like this EVERY DAY, and the only time

we'll ever find out about it is when there are witnesses who haven't' been murdered with the rest of them.

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

102. Can we get an "Attaboy" from Colin Powell?

His legacy continues.

[newspeak]

109. be careful that you do not become the monster that you

allegedly fight against. Remember at My Lai there was also someone there with enough humanity to stop it. Where was the hero in Haditha? Why some Americans do not have empathy, to at least think, that this could be their family, their children who were so callously murdered. It's amazing that after the bogus WMD allegations to attack a defenseless country, then it was the propaganda campaign that we are bringing them democracy and freedom (you know that freedom that they apparently hate us for). Is it worth it to the Iraqi people to be in continual fear and violence-more fear than Saddam ever created. Now Breeze has stated look at Vietnam now. Now? Does the ends justify the means? There are still very horrific memories in Vietnam, both for the Vietnamese and the Americans who fought there. I have a friend who was in the front lines in Vietnam who still can't think of them as people because if he did he would go out of his mind. War is an evil, dark horrific thing that needs (not should) but needs to be avoided at all costs--only to be used as a last resort. Those who gain from war are like parasites on civilizations--feeding off of the death and destruction and hopes of other countries and peoples. I am sad for these soldiers, but I am grievously sad for the families who perished, especially the children. How can one murder an innocent child? May justice be served, especially to those who are responsible from the top of our government. with their policies, they have not only murdered the innocent, they have taken the innocence from our children. :cry:

[Disturbed]

116. I can understand rage but...

murdering women and children is beyond my understanding. The men that probably did this were most likely not Sociopathic Murderers but trained killers who's minds snapped yet I cannot understand how they could go to that extreme. Yes, combat soldiers are trained killers. Some people don't wish to admit that but that is a fact. To move from that training to murdering women and children is hard to grasp.

[High Plains]

113. Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines will live in infamy

I support these troops all the way to the gallows.

[ClayZ]

115. .

:cry: