msnbc: "There is a predisposition to overturn these verdicts"

[UTUSN]

First, a happy dance here: Guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty:: :woohoo:

AlRIGHTy, then, that said & done, a Texas lawyer just said on MSNBC that "There is a predisposition to overturn these verdicts," and he cited the Arthur Andersen case overturned by the SCotUS, and a couple of others by other courts.

And, aren't defendants taken into custody when found GUILTY?

[The_Casual_Observer]

1. On what possible basis? They had the best legal council,

the verdicts ere straight across the board. Overturn??

[UTUSN]

4. He said that the central point would be

the standard for finding guilty. That the prosecution presented it was enough if the jury believed that LAY/SKILLING "turned a blind eye" to the problems, as opposed to actively participating in overt nefariousness. Also, that a big weak point in these kinds of cases is in the charge to the jury (the Andersen case).

[The_Casual_Observer]

10. That sounds like a real up hill climb for them.

[pnwmom]

25. I read somewhere that a couple of the jurors made statements in their

prejury questionnaires that possibly showed evidence of bias.

[gkhouston]

31. then why were they seated? This sounds like spin.

(not attacking you, just the argument.)

[babylonsister]

2. The truth must hurt; CNN claimed exactly the opposite earlier. nt

[reichstag911]

3. They can stay out on bail pending sentencing,...

...I believe. :banghead:

[lonecentrist]

7. How hard

Would it be for Lay and Skilling to get out of the country to another country with no extradition. I'm sure they have a nice nest egg in some offshore accounts and a country that has officials that accept bribes to look away. I would do it before I rot in prison for the rest of my life if I had the money.

[tenshi816]

13. I think they probably had to surrender their passports.

That's not an uncommon thing to happen in something this huge.

[RagAss]

21. hahahahaha.....you think that fucker needs a passport to leave .

the country?.....he can buy a fleet of jets tonight......

[tenshi816]

22. He's still got to get into whatever

country he's going to. It's not like going to Canada or Mexico or the Bahamas. It doesn't matter how many bloody jets he has.

He'll need a passport.

Do you travel outside the USA at all?

[RagAss]

23. yes...to Europe...and of course I need a passport.....

I don't have a 20 lb. bag of greenbacks to hand to some corrupt little bastard in customs somewhere...

[tenshi816]

24. Whatever

I've travelled all over the world and it just doesn't work like that, at least not in the kind of countries Lay would want to go. There are cameras everywhere (in this "post 9/11" world) and nobody is working alone in customs and immigration so the kind of B-movie crap you're suggesting just wouldn't happen.

Anyway, another poster in this thread has already pointed out that Lay had to turn over his passport before he left court today and Skilling's has been out of his possession for some time now. Those two aren't going anywhere.

[RagAss]

27. yes sir...whatever you say sir......I got your B- movie crap right here.

It's called then last 6 years of "I don't believe that fuccin happened"

[tenshi816]

29. Your post makes no sense at all.

Also, do you have a single post on DU that consists of more than one or two sentences?

[RagAss]

33. So you disagree...??

Nothing has shocked you in the last 6 years?

And it's completely inconceivable to you that these guys can skate?

[tenshi816]

34. Yes, of course many, many things have shocked me

in the last six years.

No, it's not completely inconceivable to me that Lay and Skilling could skate. They may win on appeal eventually, although I doubt it, but I don't believe they're going to skip the country right now (and certainly not without those surrendered passports).

Maybe they'll try when their appeals fail, but where are they going to go? They're too high profile to disappear, but do you think they really want to go to any country that doesn't have an extradition treaty with the United States? Have you looked at that list? After you do, get back to me and tell me which one of those countries you'd like to live in forever.

If Jeff and Kenny-Boy do manage to leave successfully and hold on to their ill-gotten gains in the process, I'm sure you'll come back and rag me about it, and rightly so, but I'm not going to lose any sleep worrying about it in the meantime.

Also, I'm not a sir.

[RagAss]

35. I don't rag people(despite my name)...and...sorry about the "sir"

I should have read your sig line for a hint.

anyway

It's hard for me to believe, especially after listening to Randi and Palast today, that someone who could find a way coordinate "rolling blackouts for profit" a few years back in California, couldn't arrange for some kind of asylum somewhere. Maybe I'm wrong or maybe I'm just frustrated at the thought that "out there" is a smug, soon to be CEO, who may already have his or her eyes on my pension.

peace rags

[treestar]

36. For people who obey the rules, you're right

[gratuitous]

20. Lay had to turn in his passport before he left court today

I think Skilling's passport has been out of his possession for some time now.

Of course, that doesn't preclude either man from fleeing the country; just makes it a little tougher to do so, but you know those Enron guys: Resourceful as all get out.

[tenshi816]

26. Here's a link

to a map of the world showing the countries the USA has extradition treaties with: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_extradition_treaties. When you look at the countries without extradition treaties, it sure does narrow the options. The countries that they could get into and be sure they wouldn't be extradited from aren't the countries they'd want to flee to anyway (Iran, North Korea and the People's Republic of China, to name but a few).

[treestar]

37. There's Russia and Morocco. Moscow or Casablanca?

[tenshi816]

38. *snort* Yeah, Kenny-Boy will love it there.

So will Jeff.

Oh yeah. Living out the rest of their lives in places where they neither speak the languages nor understand the cultures, and spend the rest of their time looking over their shoulders.

Good luck boys!

[987654321]

12. Not everyone does

White collar criminals are most often allowed to stay out of jail until sentencing. It depends a lot on who their lawyers are and how wealthy they are. They are not considered "at risk" for the safety of the general population. I think this is a crock of crap myself.

What really upsets me is that even after sentencing sometimes the wealthiest are allowed to remain free if an appeal is already in the works. There also have been many instances when the guilty are allowed to remain free after sentencing for 48 hours to get "their affairs in order" which is another crock of crap.

But we all know the wealthy have more rights than everyone else. It says it right there in the constitution.

[marions ghost]

17. this is the kind of thing

that needs to change.

Re. White collar criminals:

"Judges commonly use as justification for not imposing prison time defendants' suffering and the damage to reputations caused by arrest and prosecution...In this particular bit of folk wisdom, falls from high places are the stuff of tragedy, but the tumbles of those who had not climbed so high are assumed to be less painful--the latter are supposed to suffer less because they are accustomed to having so little. Nonetheless judges typically refer to the loss of standing already experienced by a white collar criminal as the basis for a light sentence."

(Jesilow, Pontell, and Geis) /from "Choosing White Collar Crime" Neal Stover (2006)

[987654321]

18. Thanks for your response.

We can see how well the punishment of "public humiliation" works. Look at how many white collar criminals from the Nixon and Reagan administrations handled their "loss of standing" after they were convicted. Most of them made millions off of book sales, public speaking engagements, and by becoming media personalities. Martha Stewart took her beaten reputation and got a new television show and magazine!

They took their embarrassment all the way to the bank!

[RagAss]

30. and stay out pending appeal.......

[dweller]

5. both were shown led away in cuffs

on local noon news.

pretty sure it was current.
dp

[The Deacon]

6. On the last point

Saw Kenny boy being led away with his hands cuffed behind him & Skilling being led by a baliff after his statement on the courthouse steps.
On the Texas mouthpiece on MSNBC - if your clientele were overwhelmingly white collar criminals would you go on nationwide cable & announce: "Oh, yeah, they're definitely both fucked & need to immediately throw themselves on the mercy of the Court"? Nope, you'd announce that some of the best trial lawyers the Government could find made a rookie mistake & any REALLY competent lawyer (read: the speaker) would get the whole case just TOTALLY dismissed.
This was probably just some hack MSNBC found hanging around the courthouse hoping to pick up some business - never heard of him (unlike Petrocelli, who even had a TV based on his cases.)

[durrrty libby]

11. These guys sure had a blasé attitude post verdicts.

It seems fishy that people facing so much jail time can stand there
looking as though they could care less.
:tinfoilhat:

[rodeodance]

8. There is a bond hearing coming up at 3 pm ? ET

[walkon]

9. Repug appointments

of judges not about abortion / gays / immigration but for protection of Corporations and especially BFEE supporters. That's the predisposition. Trial judges are more difficult since there are many. But U.S. Appeals Courts - practically a done deal already.

[UTUSN]

14. Will Tweety do a segment on GUILTY at all?

I was still monitoring Tweety closely back when Eron broke, and I don't recall Tweety doing ANY airtime on this and the connection of corruption to Shrub. That spring, when Enron was grabbing all the headlines, Tweety suddenly decided that the MidEast was about to go into WW III, and he even ventured out of the studio, riding a chopper over Yasser Araft's headquarters, wearing Whorealdo-like sunglasses. Tweety is a physical coward, and the FEAR was dripping from his pasty jowls.

[Mythsaje]

15. They'd best be VERY careful

how they handle this. People don't want these crooks getting away with it, and letting them off too lightly would stoke the fire of an already pissed off populace.

[Jacobin]

16. they will be out on bail after they are sentenced on 9/11

[UTUSN]

19. Sure enough, Tweety opens with the CLINTON marriage n/t

[RagAss]

28. Agreed...whatever Smug wants Smug gets....

If he wants these fuckers to walk,,,,they are already walking.....

[dogday]

32. I think you might see riots in Houston

if that happened.. They need to take into consideration the amount of people they affected, not just losing their jobs, their pensions, their savings, their benefits.. Fuck that, they better not let them walk....

[happydreams]

39. Ok, but....

their reputations will be forever damaged, uh, at least until they reinvent themselves like Ollie North and Elliott Abrams. :eyes: