OFFICIAL TRUTHOUT/LEOPOLD/ROVE THREAD #7

[The empressof all]

We are instructing the moderators to lock all threads about Jason Leopold and his Rove indictment story. If you wish to continue discussing this issue, you may do so here.

When this thread reaches approximately 100 replies, the moderators will lock it and open a new one.

Thank you for your understanding.

Skinner
DU Admin

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

1. Still Standing With Ya Will and Jason!!!!! Thanks For Everything!!!!!

Could it be tomorrow??? Frog march time Pig Boy!!!!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[arwalden]

10. And, And, And... Can I Have Your Autograph Please?

"You're my hero. And, and and.. did you notice my very own thread in support of you. Did ya, did ya, did ya?"

[Fridays Child]

95. Hmmm...

Back off, beeyotch. I did a drooly, starry-eyed support thread WAAAAYYY before you! :evilgrin: :smoke:

[idgiehkt]

40. where is the link to #6?

the others you could track back through...

[stop the bleeding]

84. I'm with ya!

For all of you who missed me so sorry I had to step away for a while. To all of you who didn't so sorry I had to step away for a while.



Give Mommy a Kiss....."

[HereSince1628]

2. Still doubtful of Leopold's story and the value Pitt's propping it up.

[Snivi Yllom]

6. it's not too late for Lepold to pull the story

well, on second thought

I guess it is too late.

[HereSince1628]

11. I said I'm doubtful. Skepticism is about doubt, not an inside track

to the truth.

Theists and atheists are not skeptical. They have made up their minds. Agnostics doubt.

[Jigarotta]

33. Pitt said doubt is good.

but I kinda doubt that.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

43. Well at least you toned down your rhetoric, even though the theme remains

the same..

Keep plumbing the depths for truth! :) MKJ

[arwalden]

15. Maybe They'll Just Secretly EDIT The Story...

...oh, wait, they already did that.

[Snivi Yllom]

16. within 24 business hours?

.

[Codeine]

47. Of course, they meant 24 business *days*. nt

[Moloch]

25. For what? To save his credibility?

I would think a person would lose that after plagiarizing part of a story from The Financial Times.

Jesus christ! When I was in journalism school, plagiarism was a cardinal sin. If I would have done that I would have been expelled from the university. It's amazing that people are still willing to hire hack writers like Leopold. I guess people will believe anything if it's what they want to hear.

[5X]

3. Reply to what was madsen stuff all about.....

obviously, madsen just wants in on all the publicity.

[dave29]

4. If no one is indicted tomorrow... I will INDICT MYSELF

For your viewing pleasure.

Query: can someone teach me how to frog march?

Edit to add: I am seriesly evil. I'm hugh in Republican sircles./

[5X]

5. ribit

[shadowknows69]

7. I still can't believe this has gone on

for 7 threads.

[5X]

9. The continuing sage of The Du ConvinceMe Code.

edit to say: thanks to Jigarotta.

[keepthemhonest]

27. and that's just in a half a day

and I don't mean a business day. Ok maybe I do.I don't freakin know what I mean, does anyone else?

You must not have been here very long if you did not think we could get to thread 7 like that.We can really pick a bone apart here.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

42. Speaking of pulling a bone apart,

here's the real deal ...........

[keepthemhonest]

46. that strange I was thinking of him when I wrote that line n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

50. I grew up with the old joke,

the punch line of which was "And here was where Napoleon pulled his Bonaparte."

See how some kids are abused?

;)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

54. OLL, a quick bit of info.

An ugly rumor was started that you opposed the Alito filibuster. Just a heads up...things are getting pretty brutal, so I figured you should know what's out there.

BTW, I admire your views and posts, so I've leapt to your defense. MKJ

:hi:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

60. HAHAHAHAHAHHA!!!!!!!!!!

Not only that, I was the one leading the charge for the summary execution of Mrs. Alito when she did that "I'm so upset, I'm crying" thing, and I had the whole Khmer Rouge ready to do my bidding.

They worship me, you know, ever since I dated Pol Pot in 1967.

Best he ever had, he always said.

Whatever you hear, it's true, and just remember that I've also got the Montagnards. I never dated any of them, though. They're all so emotionally needy.

Now, where was I?

[Jigarotta]

85. is he more Pol or is he more Pot? nudge nudge wink wink.

Oh, you do get around.
Reminds me of the Flashman series. ;)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

89. Like I'd Khmer Rouge and tell

I am nothing if not the soul of discretion.

He fell for my looks, ya know:

[Jigarotta]

94. hahah! I want to look like that.

stoogie with no fashion sense At All, that sez f y'all, I ain't cleaning up your shit no more. I love that lady, who is she?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

96. Mom

Just watch it.

Actually, we think of her as LaVerne.

[keepthemhonest]

63. yes I see ;) n/t

[Jigarotta]

57. It's a dog eat dog world.

:pic of a hound chomping down a ball park frank:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

66. Or..........

[keepthemhonest]

67. not the puppy :O n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

90. Keep it up

The puppy gets it.

I'm SERIES.

[katinmn]

36. Me either. It is a testament to

something

:)

[fujiyama]

48. Seven completely idiotic

irrelevant threads.

[Jigarotta]

74. that means for an average day, DU is doing Great!

:)

[dave29]

17. Preview of MY PENDING INDICTMENT

[keepthemhonest]

24. do you look like rove?

then it might be pleasurable.LOL

[Jigarotta]

79. as far as I know, you need partners.

that hang you upside down by your legs.
I'll take the Left! :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

83. You rang?

[Tinksrival]

8. Oh how I love GD DU!

LOL!!
Only here can I find a thread #7 of no new news and posts on offensive stickies!
I really do love this place!
Rock on!!

P.S. Is that an elephant dick? eewwwww!

[Tinksrival]

22. HaHaHa!!

My daughter just informed me that it is a whale. (Famous internet pic)

[TwilightZone]

23. It's a fake.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/animals/whale.asp

[karlrschneider]

41. Thanks for the link...I won't lose any more sleep over that issue.

issue? did I say that?

:evilgrin:

[jazzjunkysue]

12. I agree with LeftHander from thread 5: This is complicated, and still

completely up in the air.

OldLeftyLawyer:

Do you put everyone on ignore who disagrees with you? Sounds like a real boring read. If you already know everyone is going to take your point of view, what's the point of coming in here, at all?

BTW, I really agree with what LeftHander said and I've re-posted it. So, now you have to put me on ignore, too.

LeftHander's point about TO and Rove:

"I think the reason why Rove is such a hot target is because he has directly influenced this Administration and helped facilitate turning the GOP into a NeoCon stooge.

It probably could be stated that had it not been for Karl Rove. There would be no GW Bush as President.

So when it becomes clear that Karl Rove's head is possibly on the chopping block it could mean that many many other things will fall into the gallows as well.

Can you or I stop the war?
Can you or I stop Halliburton and Cheney from sucking off the nation?

No.

But we see one person who is symbol of what is left in America. A symbol of what hasn't been destroyed by Bush and Rove. A symbol of honor and integrity and it is embodied by Patrick Fitzgerald. A man doing his job. With nothing but truth for tools.

Rove's reach is long and sticky. I am sure he is pulling in all markers right now as he is backed into a corner. If a honoreable law man like Patrick Fitzgerald cannot put this man out of the business for lying. Then we all will lose.

Leopold reported what he felt he had to. I believe Rove has been indicted but America is still unaware of the stranglehold the Rove personally has on the media. The scope of which is clearly evident to me...based on a series of connected "dots" spread across a wide area. Call it "chicken bones" if you want. But people do think differently than you do. And we are no less wrong for making projections and conclusion based on action and motives that other are making in this extremely complicated affair."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From Sue: Agreed. This is the white house. We may know alot about history, but we really don't know exactly how this will play out between these cabinet members and an investigator. We don't know what really sensitive information will be released if some players start talking about these events in order to save themselves.

It's quite possible that so much has changed since friday that Leopold's story started out true, and then in the course of the week, was forgotten or changed. Leopold has no control over events.

I still wonder why no GOP pundits will defend Rove or why he doesn't get a clean bill of health. And going to speak in Lake county Ill. doesn't prove anything either way. If anything, it makes me wonder why he'd go to a county level event at all. Possibly because it's the only invitation he's gotten?????????

He's that toxic for a reason. It's no accident. And Fitz has all the proof he needs.

[BurtWorm]

13. Does anyone else feel like a cow on the way to slaughter?

These threads remind me of the cattle walks NYPD uses to keep protestors under control.

:insert smiley mooing:

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

49. Cow to a slaughter? Over a story on Truthout?

I'm not sure about the simile, could you elaborate? MKJ

[BurtWorm]

81. Talking about being lead away from the rest of GD in these

special threads.

[keepthemhonest]

73. exactly like that

I feeling clostraphobic today in here.

[Cameron27]

88. I think I saw logic slaughtered Friday night,-- think caprice did it.

And I'm startled to see loyalty slaughtering fact.

[arwalden]

14. *** BREAKING *** RawStory Has Learned:

[Snivi Yllom]

19. seriously,the only thing Raw Story has is that Dick Armitage is the target

http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Senior_Powell_aide_focus_of_CIA_0518.html

[Karmakaze]

18. This has become a battle of wills...

neither side wants to be the first to stop posting on these threads out of fear the other will claim victory. It is actually quite amusing when you step back from it a bit :)

[arwalden]

20. Okay... I'm Done.

For tonight. It's time to prepare dinner.

Bis morgen!

[symbolman]

30. Battle of wills?

No, it's become a safety blanket for all the Leopold APOLOGISTS who no longer have to do anything but go, "YAWN, gee this is SOOO Boring.." while those that have a true interest in REALITY and Honest reporting are forced to "Build their case" about how SCREWED and Sloppy the Leopold article was/is (yeah even that thread like others of interest WENT AWAY so all that PROOF is gone), and have people come to a thread and actually DEFEND "Moving the goalposts" and "the 24 Bullshit Blockbuster Video Counter Biz Hours are LONG PAST"

One poster had SIX valid questions he wanted answered "theboss", and all that went right down the drain.. like spreading a car out all over the yard, and having the guy who HIT your car say, "So, what's the big deal, where's the damage?"

Leopold Apologists got a free Love Tunnel out of this and their reactions are basically a big "fuck you, I don't have to answer, or I'll just sit this out and then make more shit up later, claiming the Leopold SCOOP - they'll FLOOD this Love Tunnel and OWN the subject with NO Responsibility to answer, like voting for the Class School President, which this is NOT what it's all about.

I'm sorry Skinner, but this to way too constraining and I think it's unfair, you can't DEBATE this way if you wanted to, even if all attacks by anyone ceased.

Free Pass for the Leopold Apologists, even if it's done in good faith as I see it (and no this is not ME calling anyone in admin or anyone else a Fuckwit).. How can I tell? I wasn't getting PM's going "HAHAHAHA GOOD LUCK." before from fans of Sloppy Joe Leopold, rather it was, "How can they defend this section of the article?"

Sure solved the problem of attacks tho. No pressure at all for a bullshit article, no need for anything but Belief. So much for Truth in the Media, at least our side.

Enjoy your love tunnel, give that Dumbass Symbolman a few classy kicks in the ass on his way out, and enjoy your "faith based" Media that NO ONE else will take seriously.

[Snivi Yllom]

68. oh shit, "FAITH BASED MEDIA"

that's just too too good

[OldLeftieLawyer]

71. Can you hear my wild applause?

It's sort of like this, isn't it? (But, really, it's ok to have these dedicated threads - consider the poor moderators and how weird their jobs have been this past week - it's ok, I think - so don't go, sman.........)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

51. There's some filtering here, too. Those who are passionately invested

in seeing Truthout go down in flames and those of us who are waiting to see how events play out continue to post here. MKJ

[arwalden]

64. Who Passionately Wants TruthOut To Go Down In Flames?

And why would they want such a thing to happen to TruthOut?

Aside from the fact that their home page needs an updated and NEW-n-improved layout... WHICH people really want them to disappear?

Is that how the folks who are critical of the story, author, editorial staff are being portrayed? Anyone who questions the story's accuracy or the writer's ethics is now an enemy of TruthOut?

Shirley you jest, or surely I misread your post. I find it difficult to believe that people are truly that paranoid and feeling THAT victimized.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

75. Who cares about TruthOut?

It's not relevant to the accuracy of what was put forward as solid news.

Naw, I'm interested in the facts and the truth and how some good people are fooled by those with less-than-acceptable standards.

And, please, don't call him Shirley.

Interesting, though, how things morph in people's minds, and one's interest in debunking falsehoods becomes a desire to crush some website.

Have the 24 business hours elapsed yet? I've lost track of cosmic time and my watch battery won't go along.

[arwalden]

107. Yes! That's What I'm Talking About.

Thank you.

[Jigarotta]

70. I am passionately invested in Truthout living up to it's name.

well, maybe not so passionate, but INTERESTED.

[Harper_is_Bush]

21. TOMORROW IS D-DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For la Rove.

:bounce: :toast: :party: :hippie: :+ :D :) :7 B-) :smoke: :beer: :thumbsup: :hi: :kick: :puffpiece: :headbang: :woohoo: :applause: :tinfoilhat: :popcorn: :rofl:

[deansyawp]

26. Fitz apparently in Chicago today

From the thread over at TalkLeft

Posted by fireback
May 18, 2006 02:50 PM
For what its worth, I just got off the phone with the receptionist for Randall Samborn, the spokesman for Fitzgerald. I asked if Mr. Fitzgerald was in Chicago or Washington.

She said he was in Chicago.

Here's to a late afternoon/night or early morning flight to DC.

[Harper_is_Bush]

PLEASE 'splain the significance of that

for those of us who are bad at geography.

[deansyawp]

38. Well

needless to say if Fitz is staying in Chicago he ain't appearing before the Grand Jury to ask for an indictment or holding any press conferences re: Rove.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

52. Really?

Does Fitzgerald have to be there for the grand jury to hand down any indictments?

Really?

[deansyawp]

77. Well

As a newbie (and decidedly NAL) I know I'm likely to be shown a fool for trying to reply here, but, yes, I'm sure that one of his ADA's could be there to ask the GJ for an indictment, but somehow I think that for this momentous event Fitzgerald himself would show up?

And, similarly (and here again I wade in above my head or at least my hips) while I hear they've got a press along with hot dogs and that lake thingy in Chicago, I'm guessing Fitz would be more likely to handle questions on this most national of cases in DC.

But whadda I know?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

82. Welcome to DU

You having fun yet?

You're brave, and you're going to enjoy DU. You are.

Good for you.

Couldn't there be a press conference in Chicago, announcing whatever needed to be announced? The location really is irrelevant, since there are far more important things going on.

You know plenty. Trust it.

[deansyawp]

99. Thanks

for the welcome.

And you are probably right. I suppose no reason he wouldn't announce what needed to be announced in Chicago. While chomping on a dog, covered with that celery salt I hear they have to use.

I still think he'd show up personally (rather than send an ADA) to make the request to the GJ to indict, that seems to be his style, but, as I said, IANAL.


But wait, more important things than this, all seven (plus many many more) threads worth ... that's, to quote Ralph Wiggum, unpossible!

[Jigarotta]

92. nah, I think all he has to do is FedEx a ham sandwich. nt

[Harper_is_Bush]

56. Why can't he hold a press conference in Chicago?

Don't they have press there?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

62. NO, THEY DO NOT

They have hot dogs, though, and celery salt.

And, uh, you know, that big water thing. It's wet.

But, no. There is no press in Chicago.

Whew. I'm glad we explained that. Who knows what might have happened?

Nice catch, Harper.......................

[deansyawp]

65. celery salt? n/t

[OldLeftieLawyer]

76. For the hot dogs

It's mandatory in Chicago.

[Justice Is Comin]

28. I have a dream.

Moove it...moove it...mooove it.

[Jigarotta]

32. why does the Big Richard have white lace panties rolled up

around his unhipness?

[Justice Is Comin]

39. Rove has got em too.

Must be a thang.

[demobabe]

29. BREAKING: JASON LEOPOLD TO OUT SOURCES

Since it's been past the 24 hours, Jason Leopold is officially burned by his sources, and he promised to out his sources if the story proved false.

[Harper_is_Bush]

35. No

Until it's 100% clear that Rove wasn't indicted on May 12, your claim that JL was "officially burned" is pure nitwittery.

If the "24 busines hours" thing doesn't hold true but the indictment is dated May 12, I would say the story was essentially true and the sources good.

[demobabe]

45. No

24 business hours means 24 hours. It got contorted to mean 72 hours or 3 business days. We're past that.

Fitzgerald does not have a history of getting indictments and sitting on them for a full week.

Leopold said there was going to be a press conference yesterday, and that did not happen.

It's clear Leopold is officially burned at this point - he needs to out his sources like he said he would.

The only thing we don't have is an indictment dated May 12, and that is because IT DOESN'T EXIST!

So it is 100% clear the story is bunk.

[Harper_is_Bush]

53. No

Even if it don't happen until next week, if the date on the indictment is May 12 then the story was essentially legit.

Anyone saying otherwise would need to check their bias.

[demobabe]

59. Leopold didn't say

...he would out his sources if there was an indictment dated May 12. He said he'd out his sources if they burned him.

He is clearly burned at this point and needs to out his sources.

He said there would be a press conference yesterday.

Didn't happen.

He said Rove had 24 hours to get his affairs in order. Then something - unspecified - would happen.

Nothing has happened.

He is burned.

Toast.

Unreliable.

Less reputable than Wayne Masdsen now.

Done.

[Harper_is_Bush]

72. No

See post #35. I shouldn't have to repeat myself in such a short sub-thread.

EDIT: in case it's not clear, this is in regards to you claiming "He is clearly burned at this point"

[Jigarotta]

104. if the date on the indictment is May 12

I will fly down there to kiss Willie's hairy beer mug. just for fun, mind you. and only if a ticket is provided.
and if I'm compensated for lost revenue.

[Marie26]

102. If that source is really

from within Fitz's team or the fed. government, they could lose their job for leaking this info. Somehow, Leopold's willingness to reveal his sources if he feels wronged doesn't make me think any higher of his journalistic credentials here.

[seriousstan]

31. Breaking news........... Rove still not indicted and...........

Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead

update at 11

[Jigarotta]

34. BREAKING WIND: smell at 11 nt

[Harper_is_Bush]

37. If the smell is not until 11 then the wind is not breaking at this time.

nt

[Jigarotta]

55. slow winds, slow minds, extra special busyness hours.

on certain blue moon periods. It all figures.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

44. Your articulate and brilliant ripostes continue to astound. n/t

MKJ

[brettdale]

58. So is tomorrow the day?

Or am I clutching at straws?

[enough already]

61. It has to be tomorrow

There's no way Rove is walking.

[Joanne98]

69. STANDING WITH WILL!!!!!!!!

[Moloch]

78. How many of you are still buying this crap?

Hopefully you are the only one.

You do understand that everywhere other than DU and Truthout, this disproven bullshit from a disgraced journalist has been dismissed and laughed off.

I understand. You have seen bush and his cronies get away with all kinds of things and they deserve to spend the rest of their lives in prison. I agree with you -- BUT you should use some common sense and not believe everything you read.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

87. Oh, you doubter and evil, evil person

How dare you inject reality, knowledge, reason, intelligence, and confidence in this matter?

You really are axing for it, you arrogant truthsayer, you.

In the old days, people like you got burned at the steak. Medium rare. No celery salt.

(Congratulations, and welcome to what has become - or so it seems to me - The Dark Side)

heh heh heh

Welcome.

[Moloch]

91. LOL thank you

I suspect that there will be much more of us in the coming days.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

93. You should see the PMs I've gotten

Remarkable number. From people who agree with what I've been posting, but who are afraid - yes, that's the word - to respond on the boards because of the nastiness that's been demonstrated by people who didn't agree with my thinking.

Imagine that. On a place as grand as DU, the behavior of these people who refuse to accept reality - or even tolerate an opinion different from theirs - free speech was suddenly something to avoid, and so people sent Private Messages because they were afraid to speak out.

This whole exercise has been a remarkable lesson in intolerance, meanspiritedness, and, above all, the sad state of how people do not want others to express themselves, just so that they can continue to believe in an easily demonstrated and immediately debunked false story.

It's been a real interesting dynamic.

[Moloch]

98. Classic groupthink behavior...

reminds me a lot of the way many americans acted after 9/11... the whole with us or against us thing.

The same people who are complaining that media lies daily are willing to believe this completely unsubstantiated piece of piffle.

They have truly become what they most hate. It serves no purpose than to make all leftist internet activity look bad.

[October]

108. It has been mean-spirited and ugly on both sides.../nt

[Jigarotta]

100. hmmm. about 'standing'

It is a somewhat valiant thing, I have had those thoughts. but not for some stranger on one of the nets.

I would stand by my close friends and family, no matter what they did wrongly. (but give them a secret slap upside the head for getting themselves in the mess in the first place) but I would stand because they mean something to me, and I mean something to them.

I'm talking about real life now. not 0's and 1's personalties.

[Innoma]

80. It all comes down to which way the knives are pointing...

I just can't wrap my head around this whole Rove Indictment thing - if its true, there certainly has been no real confirmation of it, yet if its a farce, the talking heads sure seem to be steering clear of it as well, which I find entirely out of character. What gives? I suppose, if pressed, I can see why many might doubt the veracity of a Leopold or Madsen, but Pitt? He hardly seems like the kinda guy who would whole-heartedly endorse someone who seems to be turning into our version of Judith Miller. I find myself at a loss.

I would certainly hope Leopold and Pitt are vindicated, because it would represent a double coup - getting rid of Rove and bolstering the perception of alternative news sources would be nothing to sneeze at, but if they are wrong, there will be plenty blood and sharks in the water, and that's something I'd hate to witness. One thing is certain, however - tomorrow ought to be mighty interesting one way or another.

[greatauntoftriplets]

86. Rove will be in Chicago tomorrow!!!!

Attending a couple of fundraisers.

http://www.dailyherald.com/news/lakestory.asp?id=190131&cc=l&tc=&t=

Break out the :tinfoilhat:

[Harper_is_Bush]

97. ONLY TWO RECOMMENDS????????

AND NOW IT DIES AN IGNOBLE DEATH. 'tis a shame.

[MelissaB]

101. Well, we're airing our laundry in public again with the recommends.

[Harper_is_Bush]

103. Fuck the public. n/t

[MelissaB]

106. Yeah, fuck the rifts we're creating here, too.

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Snivi Yllom]

110. good poll

but there is no way it's gets posted without getting pulled

time for number

[jollyreaper2112]

111. sigh

Truth be told, I'm just pissed about the whole situation.

1) You know Rove is a dirty tricks bastard. Therefore, never trust a single source, go for several.

2) You know even if you're told bad info in good faith, if you run with it and it's proven false, you've got a major black eye.

3) If Rove is going to get indicted, it's not going to be kept a secret! Trying to break a story that WILL BREAK IF IT HAPPENS a little bit early and risking your reputation on that is foolish.

4) Having royally and publically fucked up, you sould have the grace to admit it, take your lumps, and not poison the well.

This whole fiasco is causing us more problems than it's causing the Pukes. It's shameful. It's the same sort of circular firing squad activity that Dems are famous for. The Pukes are busy stabbing themselves in the crotch with a knife repeatedly and we go and slip on a banana peel and crack our skulls open. Great way to take advantage of the situation, folks.

[jazzjunkysue]

109. Let's kick the new one up! Number 8 please!

[jazzjunkysue]

112. kick: Everyone's waiting for Henry the 8th! ...tic.tic.tic Lock Me!!!!

[jazzjunkysue]

113. Lock, me Rhonda, Lock, Lock me Rhonda......

[Snivi Yllom]

114. it's 9 o'clock WHERE'S THE BEEF!

no indictment manana

[RoadRunner]

115. Locking

Thread 8 is here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1230678