Theory: Leopold was wrong. Dead wrong. And then he backpedaled.

[Goblinmonger]

With Will Pitt holding his handlebars for him.

The fact that there are so many apologists out there on DU is frightening. Why are people so afraid to say that there is a serious problem with journalistic integrity here? Why are so many people taking the dittohead approach and just blindly following and pledging unwaivering allegiance? How does that make you any different from the Freepers that watch Faux News?

[Coexist]

1. Oh, enough already

[Alizaryn]

34. Ditto

[marmar]

2. Did he backpedal?

I thought he was sticking by the story.

[Goblinmonger]

15. 24 BUSINESS hours

that is backpedaling after the story is proven incorrect.

[Skinner]

3. I've avoided publicly taking sides on this.

So please don't read anything into my question.

When did Leopold backpedal? I missed that.

[Goblinmonger]

13. 24 BUSINESS hours

which is just legally silly. There is no difference between "24 hours" and "24 business hours" in the law, but when it didn't happen in 24 hours, they tried to make it 72 hours. I consider that backpedaling. Perhaps that may not be the best term for all.

[Skinner]

23. Not defending Leopold here.

But IMHO, the central claim of Leopold's story was the fact that Rove was already indicted, and he has not backpedalled on that. If he's fudged on the 24-hours thing, it does make the credibility of the entire story suspect. But ultimately Leopold will be judged on the central claim -- whether Rove was indicted last Friday.

[Goblinmonger]

26. The date on the indictment

will be telling, I agree with you.

The 24-hour thing is still him being wrong about when it will be released. The fudging makes him look silly, I think.

[Beetwasher]

64. Actually, The Story Does Not Say It Will Be Released In 24 Hours

Only that Rove was given 24 hours to get his affairs in order. The only mention of timing regarding an announcement or public release of the indictment was that it would happen this week.

[Goblinmonger]

66. I believe

the "this week" was part of the edit they made when they went to "24 business hours" but I could be wrong.

Regardless, when it doesn't happen this week, will you admit they were wrong?

[Beetwasher]

71. I've Taken No Sides in This Issue

So I would have no problems in saying Leopold was wrong if there is no announcement of an idictment this week. And even if there is an indictment announcement, and it turns out Rove was NOT indicted last week, I would have no problems saying JL was wrong on that as well.

I don't believe that is correct about an edit. I seem to remember "this week" being a part of the original story and the 24 hours always referring to the time Rove had to get his affairs in order.

[Goblinmonger]

76. I may be wrong about the "this week" issue

I am going by memory and indicated it might be wrong from the get go. On a side note, too bad we don't have the original somewhere to compare it to since they just changed the original rather than adding and addendum.

[bowens43]

4. So are you saying rove will not be indicted?

As of now we don't that Leopold was wrong. Maybe you shouldn't jump to conclusions.

[theboss]

6. Stop changing the verb tense

Leopold said he was indicted on Friday. If he is indicted tomorrow, Leopold is wrong.

[Skinner]

9. With all due respect...

...the controversy here is not whether Rove will be indicted. Jason Leopold will not be vindicated simply if Rove is indicted.

Jason Leopold will only be vindicated if Rove was *already* indicted. That is the bold claim that he made.

[mtnsnake]

59. "Jason Leopold will only be vindicated if Rove was *already* indicted"

If and when Rove is indicted, I think that that single statement is the most important thing that people who are taking sides on this need to remember.

Having said that, let's say for sake of speculation that Rove gets indicted sometime in the near future. Will it then become public knowledge whether or not Rove had indeed already been indicted or not in the manner Leopold asserted?

[Goblinmonger]

I know that he will not be indicted

on the schedule that Leopold told us was unequivocally correct.

[mmonk]

5. Maybe he was,

Maybe he wasn't. Maybe he was had. Maybe he knows something you don't. Why is giving him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise the dittohead approach? He wasn't spouting an ideology masquerading as an opinion or fact.

[symbolman]

7. Yep

What the GOB said. Exactly.

Funny part is that when they are called Apologists, they are actually NOT apologising for being wrong or sloppy or moving the goalposts, undying love no matter what, Fuzzy Math, etc

Get yer Waders out folks, it's gonna get DEEP in here.

The good part is with all the horseshit flying around there HAS to be a Pony in here SOMEWHERE :)

Let's cut them some slack, it's over.

[babylonsister]

8. Link? Facts?? If you have none, you're as bad as the apologists. nt

[symbolman]

18. Actually

Not having FACTS would make me as Bad as Leopold and his sloppy ass writing, poor PR skills, etc.

Most people here keep insisting they don't NEED FACTS to believe, well then neither do I, unless you want a whole boatload of Leopold's "career" decisions made for him by Judges, Editors, and others who told him to take a hike.

I'll find those links for you

[Snivi Yllom]

54. Facts Smhacts

throw shit on the wall and see what sticks

that's the life for me!

[Clark2008]

70. Not sticking my nose in the original question, but as

a former reporter (for 12 years), I'd like to say that:

A. The writing was NOT sloppy. It remains to be seen whether the sourcing and investigation was or wasn't. I'm not beating that dead horse - just pointing out that the WRITING was fine - it was a well-WRITTEN piece.
B. Reporters don't NEED PR skills. Who cares about their public relations? As long as they ferret out the facts and report accurately, I don't care if the public likes them or not. Big deal.

Please, don't mix reporting and public relations - no matter than most schools teach them as simultanous courses (I was a reporter and am now in marketing/pr, for example). The fact is that reporters and public relations people DO NOT LIKE one another. They're two sides of a coin.

[Goblinmonger]

20. Go to Truthout

Remember that the original article said "24 hours" and that he WAS indicted. The 24 hours has passed long ago. Then they changed the article to say "24 business hours" which is a bullshit legal term that means nothing, but they claimed that gave them until Wednesday. Still no indictment. They were wrong. QED

[HereSince1628]

10. Loyalty and faith facilitate development of unchallengeable beliefs

and you really cannot argue rationally about things which are held to be true by such belief. When ideas get internalized as such personal conviction, people take any criticism of the idea as a personal affront and get very emotional about it.

Sound like the last 5 days on DU? It's human nature. It's led to considerable sectarian strife and violence in western civilization.

[stop the bleeding]

11. No one made all of you the G-Damn Journo Police and

even if they did there are better ways to go about this for crying out loud.

on edit::nuke:

[stop the bleeding]

35. fucking crickets - unbelievable n/t

[HereSince1628]

People are claiming to be critical readers not "G-damn Journo Police"

This _IS_ a discussion board. Credibility, not loyalty or faith, is the big issue on DU. That is why some "newsy sources" are banned from being linked to here. They didn't get that way without critical reading and discussion.

[stop the bleeding]

48. No, I disagree this has gone far past a critical discussion

there are several people out there who have been judge, jury, and executioner on this matter about TO instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to see how this plays out. They(TO) could have retracted the story on Monday but they didn't, in fact the ratcheded it up a few more degrees by putting themselves out further with interviews and articles since. So lets wait and see instead of this malarkey.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1221712&mesg_id=1221830

WilliamPitt (1000+ posts) Wed May-17-06 04:02 PM
Original message

"When the documents come out

they will have dates on the top.

Those dates will be Friday May 12, 2006.

Just as we said. "



I now am beginning to see why these people are so Journo Police.


Those who can do

Those who can't coach

Those who can't coach set on the couch and become critics


Journo Police don't quit your day jobs.


next...

[symbolman]

69. Ever seen a Pig get his head stuck in a bucket?

It's pretty funny. They walk backwards, and you can guide them anywhere you want, as long as they stay confused and disoriented.. and of course HUNGRY.

I disagree my friend this IS an ISSUE today.

The 24 biz hours are UP, someone might want to do some damage control and at least admit that much..

[stop the bleeding]

74. The ball is in TO's court

lets wait and see.

2 things about pigs they wallow around in their own shit, and all pigs get slaughtered.

[Snivi Yllom]

58. mods locked this thread about a Rove story today:

if you want to talk about Journo Police

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1222693

[Sammy Pepys]

12. Where did he backpedal?

It seems to me like he started reinterpreting the details ("business hours" for example) to keep his story "correct."

What bothers me more and more is all the talk about these new sources coming forward, including people in the media. I just don't buy that all these people would know but no one would break it....and I don't believe the story about the media bosses quashing it.

I welcome the opportunity to be thoroughly bitchslapped on this if it all ends up to be true.

[Goblinmonger]

24. You can call it "reintepreting"

I'll stick with backpedaling because "24 business hours" is a bullshit phrase that is not used by lawyers.

[Sammy Pepys]

43. Well, I agree with you there....n/t

....

[symbolman]

55. So that means his CORRECTION

was Bullshit, Correct?

I will not sit here and let someone tell me that 24 BIZ hours (as amended later in a CONCRETE story) can be rationally PULLED Into NEXT WEEK..

Not saying YOU said that, but it's being said..

[Extend a Hand]

14. SO WHAT if Leopold/Truthout is wrong on this story?

Truthout reporters and readers, unlike FAUX news and their viewers, are SEEKING the truth. A mistake does not equal a lie. A timing error doesn't invalidate the truth of the charges.

[Balbus]

33. "A mistake does not equal a lie."

Isn't that the freepers most popular defense for Bush and the Iraq war?

[Extend a Hand]

63. possibly, but bush* clearly lied

itis exceeding clear that bush* planned to invade iraq when he first entered office. The fact that freepers call a lie a mistake doesn't make the statement that a mistake does not equal a lie untrue.

[Catherine Vincent]

16. How DARE YOU compare us to freepers?

:crazy:

[Goblinmonger]

30. Is there no free speech here?

What problem do you have with the analogy?

[PerceptionManagement]

17. Yo' Goblinmonger, I don't believe Leopold has backpedaled.

Turd Blossom IS in trouble. Who is apologizing, and who is claiming to have journalistic integrity?

[Vinnie From Indy]

19. LOL!

It is amusing to read such hyperbolic nonsense.

"Why are people so afraid to say that there is a serious problem with journalistic integrity here?"

Where? Is there a lack of integrity in regard to journalistic standards here on DU? Truthout? Leopold?

"The fact that there are so many apologists out there on DU is frightening."

Examples of apologists running amok here on DU would be appreciated.

"How does that make you any different from the Freepers that watch Faux News?"

I would propose that your post is much more in line with the blanket generalizations and hyperbolic, breathless shreiks of alarm that are the hallmark of Faux news rather than Leopold's article.

[displacedtexan]

31. I bow to you, Vinny From Indy!

Jeez, I'm becoming a V From I groupie!

[Balbus]

41. Please tell me I'm wrong and you didn't seriously ask

for an example of apologists running amok on DU.... But just in case you did, here's a link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=364

[Vinnie From Indy]

60. I'll be your huckleberry!

I used your link and found myself on page one of the DU General Discussion Board. A quick, unscientific and cursory review of the post headlines found this thread that seemingly attacks the "journalistic integrity" of everyone on DU (whatever that means)and also labels any person not willing to savage the reputations of Pitt and Leopold an apologist. I also found your post attacking the 15 hour aspect of Leopold's story. I found a thread from Gato in Costa Rica that offers to buy Pitt and Leopold a beer of they come down there to visit. Judging by the posts on that thread, everyone (including me) wants to visit. Lastly, I found a thread that offers that Leopold might have been correct and then the circumstances changed. I guess we will someday definitively know the truth of Leopold's claim. On that day, I expect a bit of fur to fly around here.

[Goblinmonger]

65. He said 24 hours.

That didn't happen. Then he came up with the 24 business hour bullshit. That didn't happen. The truth of his claim is no longer in question as regards to the 24-hour timeline.

[Vinnie From Indy]

72. OK

I read what was alleged to be a Will Pitt post in which he states that the indictments were delivered in the 24hr defined by Leopold. The indictement documents, if and when they are released, according to Pitt will be dated within that 24 hr. period. Do you know if Pitt is incorrect about this? Is this an impossible scenario?

Also, I read that Fitz could have served Rove but neither is bound by law to reveal that fact immediately. Do you know if that is correct?

[Goblinmonger]

62. What exactly is hyperbolic?

I will fully agree that I tend to hyperbole at times. Not sure this is the case here.

Leopold said 24 hours. That didn't happen. He was wrong. People are lining up to defend him. Any of that wrong?

[pocoloco]

21. What a frigging waste of bandwith!!

[Goblinmonger]

28. I know you are but what am I.

Seriously, that is the best comment you have to post?

[Puglover]

40. Well, now you know

how some folks get 35,000 posts in two months here. :)

[havocmom]

45. Perhaps it is, within the DU rules

:evilgrin:

[Norquist Nemesis]

22. If that's your interpretation

you're entitled to it. :shrug:

I heard him on Ed Schultz. He is still sticking with the information given by his sources (plural). His editors also confirmed it. One of the main reasons he believes these sources is because they have provided credible information in the past. He also said other news outlets (ABC, MSNBC) have the story, but they're not going with it because they all have a single source at this point.

There's probably an audio of the interview at Schultz' site www.wegoted.com

On a similar note...What about Sy Hersch's piece? He said that Bush/Cheney wouldn't take the nuke option off the table. That several high level military officers would be meeting with Bush in two weeks (from the time the piece was published) and that there would be lots of resignations if it didn't get taken out of 'The Plan' to bomb Iran.

I haven't heard/read anymore about that...so far.

[symbolman]

47. Leopold BACKPEDALED on Schultz's SHOW

He SAID loud and clear that he was only "95%" sure..

SOLID?

[yodermon]

25. If Leopold is wrong, lying,

or has been duped, then the following people are also wrong, lying or have been duped:

Larry Johnson
Joseph Wilson

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1183131&mesg_id=1183804

[AnarchoFreeThinker]

27. You could be absolutely right. But more than one explanation makes sense.

[notadmblnd]

29. Why do you feel a need to keep this going?

We're all aware right now what has occured. You're not providing any new information and frankly, I'm tired of listening to the bitching about it. If you feel that you can't trust these individuals any longer then ignore what they post. But keeping the pot stirred just to keep it stirred is in my opinion pointless.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

36. Yes. I'm severely skeptical re: the story, but I see little point in

posting a whole bunch of individual threads browbeating the issue. There is very little in the way of additional ideas or debate in the numerous threads on this, at this point.

[mmonk]

38. That's what I question.

What's the purpose other than to keep things stirred? It's either true or not true and we should find out soon enough. Does that mean Jason is not truthful across the board or can never be trusted if he got it wrong after multiple confirmations?

[symbolman]

32. The word for today boys and girls is

APOLOGISTS.

He was TRICKED. Someone LIED to him. Anyone can make a mistake.. etc, etc..

Sure HOPE that the FACTS are Important to FITZ, don't YOU? Think the GJ will just assume that Rove is Guilty?

C'mon admit it.

REMEMBER if you get caught being Wrong ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Theory: I like pie.

Discuss.

[symbolman]

42. Funny I like Pie too

at last someone seeking common ground :)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

52. Theory: That's NOT A PIE!

THAT'S HIGHLY CONCENTRATED ROVIAN PSEUDO-PIE!

[havocmom]

46. Want coffee with pie? Think I'll make a fresh pot for the DU break room

DE-CAF! Coming up. ;)

[SteppingRazor]

39. It's pretty obvious that Leopold got it wrong...

and has been pretty obvious for some time now. I'm a big fan of Truthout and Leopold's work, and a bigger fan still of Pitt's work. I'm sure there's more to the story -- Leopold isn't dumb enough to just claim something that is wildly untrue without having some reason. Whether Leopold was duped, or misinterpreted some quote or legal paper or whathaveyou, the point is, he was wrong. He is wrong. For him to be right, while no other journalist on the planet confirms the story, is simply absurd. It defies rational thought.

I'm a professional journalist myself, and I even did actual, serious news before moving into the gonzo world of rock criticism. Back when I was covering courts and cops for a daily paper, there were plenty of times when sources would go back on what they said, or else offer ambiguous background statements that could easily be misinterpreted. Point being, while I think it's obvious that Leopold got the story wrong, I don't agree that he just made up what he wanted to believe out of whole cloth. He's not an idiot, and he would have known that doing that would prove disastrous. I'm sure that there's some plausable excuse for this indictment error, but in the end, Leopold will either have to fall on a sword or burn his sources to make this right. If I were him, my actions would depend on the accuracy of the information fed to me by said sources.

[in_cog_ni_to]

44. Leopold was/is not wrong and has many OTHERS in the MSM who CONFIRM

and support his report! Just stay tuned. I expect to see 5000 "I was wrong about Pitt and Leopold. Please forgive me?" threads when the indictment is finally made public.

Calling DUers "DiTTOHEADS" is fucking funny. A group of people who can't agree on ANYTHING, are DITTOHEADS???? :rofl::rofl::rofl:

LIBERAL = NON-DITTOHEAD. :eyes:

Lots of people are gonna be eatin' their words.

[havocmom]

56. Hey, in-cog-ni-to, you got a defination of 'sealed indictment'

you could share with the class. Seems to be a general lack of understanding of how they could be used to squeeze mid sized fish into turning on bigger fish.

For all we know, the '24 hours to set affairs in order' did the trick. When you are going after big fish, ya gotta know what bait to put on your hook. ;)

[Goblinmonger]

75. I wasn't calling all of DU dittoheads

Just those that pledge to believe Leopold "100%" regardless of what the facts are.

You are pretty sure that I am going to be one that has to eat my words. What about the "24 hour" claim by Leopold. He was wrong about that. WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG. Even if you go with his bullshit business hours claim, he was WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG about 24 hours. Nobody seems to be eating their words about that. Nobody is posting, "Gee, all you people who thought Leopold was full of it, I'm sorry I doubted you. TruthOut was wrong about the 24 hour time frame. Please forgive me."

[Alamom]

49. Don't sweat it. We "know" we can count on the M$M to keep

us updated with the "TRUTH" about everything that's going on.
We don't need any journalist or reporters trying to dig for news.....we have plenty. They listen, take notes and type what they're told very well.
Just turn on the TEEVEE. :sarcasm:


Using sources and going out on a limb with bits and pieces of a story is so, so ......70's. :*

[Lerkfish]

50. this has become quite the crusade for you, I notice

you need better hobbies.

[symbolman]

61. This isn't serious enough

a case for him to comment on? Why not?

I got drafted during Nam and half of my classmates got KILLED standing up for EVERYONE'S right to free speech, so he has as much right to speak out on a public forum as you do, correct?

[mmonk]

51. Could this be a case of a multiple count indictment

whereby some counts have been handed down but a few remaining counts are still to be decided on and presented?

[KarenS]

53. It is too early to know,,,, If there is an indictment announced,

what counts (with me, anyway) is the date on that indictment. If that date is Friday May 12th, then in my mind TruthOut got it right. Until an indictment happens or the unsealing of the indictment, I am keeping an open mind about this.

Bottom line is I want to see Rove (and Cheney and Rumsfield and Bush and on and on) indicted, impeached and imprisoned ~ I don't care when and I don't care how.

[symbolman]

57. But you DO care

that FITZ has HIS facts straight, right?

If Fitz ran his case like Leopold writes then Rove WILL WALK.

And I assume NO ONE wants that, do they?

So there IS a reason for Truth telling.

[mmonk]

67. Everybody does, so let's wait and see what the facts are.

[KarenS]

68. Of course, I care that Fitz has his facts right,,,, but that's his M.O.

I simply said that I will wait until this plays out until I decide for myself ~ who is right and who is wrong and who is lying. Even when the this plays out, I am certain that all of us here will not agree on the final analysis.

[Bonhomme Richard]

73. Has everything happened on schedule in your life? n/t

[Skinner]

77. Locking

COntinue discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1224473