I would like to apologize to Will Pitt for what I'm about to say...

[ShaneGR]

Will,

I think you're a fantastic writer. Your books, your posts on DU, and your website. I think you have the potential to be a major news source for liberals in the decades to come.

But, retract your story. NOW. I understand you had your sources. I understand you believed what you were told.

What were you told? You were told that Leopold's story was true. That Fitzgerald spent multiple hours at Defense Council's office on Friday May 12th. That he was there for the purpose of serving Karl Rove with an indictment. That the indictment was served and that Rove was informed that he had 24 hours to "get his house in order." Eventually this was changed to 24 "business" hours, we're past that too. So basically we're left with the scenario of a sealed indictment. Do you really think that Karl Rove would have appeared on Capitol Hill TODAY in a publicized Republic Congressional meeting if he knew he had been indicted? You can call Rove whatever you want, devious, aggressive, liar, sychophant, mastermind, criminal, etc. but what you cannot call him is dumb. He has consistently behaved, for over 10 years now, in a manner not consistent with "dumb."

Sadly, it is looking more and more like that scenario is actually false. Personally, I think Rove's attorneys were being served with a target letter. Typically a Prosecutor in this circumstance would serve Rove with a target letter before indictment by the Grand Jury. And if you look at the timeline of past cases Fitzgerald has prosecuted, when an indictment was issued it was reported IMMEDIATELY. Your only saving grace would be the unusual step of a sealed indictment and an offer from the Prosecution to drop the charge if Rove will testify against the President or the Vice President. Highly unlikely.

Don't continue to stain yourself over this. We all want Rove indicted. But not at the cost of ruining the journalistic credibility of one of our brightest young stars. Admit fault, continue to write solid stories. Overall, focus on the longterm and not the short. Retract it.

Sincerely,

Shane

[Opening_Day]

1. Give it time - it's "business" hours after all!

Friday is the big day.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

6. But, but, but,

there's no such concept in the law.

That 24 hour thing was a riot. Whoever came up with that one had a really bad mescaline experience somewhere in the past, I think.

So, there's no such thing, and it's illusionary.

Friday has absolute no mystical significance. It's as relevant as today was. The grand jury is hearing other cases, you understand, don't you?

Friday is nothing but the day after Thursday and the one before Saturday.

[stop the bleeding]

7. Welcome to Du Opening_Day

:toast:

[smb]

61. Yeah!

When you factor out lunch hour, coffee breaks, trips to the potty, butt-photocopying gags, schmoozing around the water cooler, useless staff meetings, etc, "24 business hours" could last forever.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

2. can we please wait to find out if it's false or not

before you demand he retract it?





This is just getting stupid.

[Cleita]

18. But, but that makes too much sense.

eom

[karlrschneider]

32. The "problem" is that it's already been demonstrated as false.

The original story (do you need a link?) stated unequivocally that the "indictment" was a fait accompli, a done deal, a concluded enterprise.

I could write a story claiming there was a huge tornado that wiped out Tulsa as if it were factual...and when it appeared not to have happened, can I just say "well, it's coming....in 24 hours...or 24 'business hours'...or in 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 eons?"

The thing is, he could have avoided ALL of this controversy if he had just penned a story saying something like "Some sources have said there has been a signed indictment of Rove today...details to follow" but it didn't appear in print that way. The buck has to stop somewhere, it can't be passed off ad infinitum.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

37. details of the article have been proven wrong...

I'm not ready to write the whole thing off yet.

I've got champagne ready if the fact that he was indicted turns out to be right.

I've got :popcorn: ready if it turns out he was given false info... cause then we will be hearing some names!

[karlrschneider]

41. Oh, I'm still hoping he DOES end up in the pokey, -but-

I don't want to be given false hopes via crappy journalism, which by any conceivable definition, this fiasco qualifies. That's all I'm sayin'.

[springhill]

55. I am just amazed at the people.........

who are so distrusting of Will Pitt. What has he done or said to make anyone believe he would lie. And that is what people on this site are basically saying. He says they have many cooberating sources and some of the networks have confirmed the same story but have not been allowed by the top brass to report on it. From his journal:

Oh Fa Chrissake...
Hm
Posted by WilliamPitt in General Discussion
Sun May 14th 2006, 10:31 AM
1) It fosters a misinformed public. And if you don't think that's dangerous, then you haven't been paying close enough attention to Fox News. Or to Judith Miller's WMD reports for the NYTimes.

The report is unsubstantiated insofar as it has not been reported by the very media apparatus you, in your own words, disdain. The report is substantiated insofar as it has been cofirmed for truthout by several independent sources, sources that do not know who the other sources are and don't have any way to do some kind of coordinated disinformation burst.

4) Is there a reason, a point, or something beneficial for the public to gain by broadcasting unsubstantiated stories? How does it benefit the public to be led by the nose, tidbit-by-tidbit, with hints and clues about what 'may' or 'may not' occur?

Yes, there's a reason: it isn't unsubstantiated. We have several sources. Once again, it is only "unsubstantiated" because the mainstream media hasn't reported on it yet. They will...and when they do, you can look deep within and discover to your horror that you are as much of a lapdog for the corporate press as any other Fox-watching sucker. You're up on your hind legs, right now, begging for scraps from their table.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/WilliamPitt

[blondeatlast]

38. Why do you hate...

DU/GD?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

40. hey stranger!

fancy meeting you in a dump thread like this!

:hug:

[blondeatlast]

45. LOL! nt

[Media_Lies_Daily]

3. You seem a little too desperate for Jason to be wrong. Why is that?

[meisje]

5. Almost as desperate as you are in defending the faux story

[aquart]

14. Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Of course, it's embarrassing for someone to fix on an inconsequential detail AND GET IT WRONG.

A 24-hour warning to Rove places no time constraints on Fitz, not to make the indictment public or anything else.

But that's a toughy for some.

Meantime, judging by the WH press thingy today, most of the MSM is aware of the news, but they can't get the WH to go on the record with it.

So, how many agents provocateurs do you think we have around here?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. I don't know, but they seem to be multiplying like....

...cockroaches, and harder to tombstone.

[symbolman]

51. Man the slash and burn politics of a Progressive?

even resorting to comparing FELLOW DEMOCRATS WITH ROACHES? Thank god you don't have the power to tombstone anyone, or you would be the only one left. Have you No SHAME SIR?

What about if YOU are wrong, have you considered how many people you should have to apologise to? Or would you even consider that..

[BurtWorm]

52. I can't help but think

you sound like a fascist. Really.

[Pachamama]

54. The strangest thing is that many are those that are suddenly showing their

true intentions....

Yes, cockroaches indeed....and breeding fast and furious...

You noticed too? :eyes:

[VolcanoJen]

58. Right. Tombstone me.

I'm a cockroach.

Jesus. Here since the very first day of DU, goddammit, and suddenly, I'm a cockroach who should be tombstoned for doubting the reporting and credibility of Jason Leopold. And for questioning why Will Pitt vehemently stands by the story and even the nitty-gritty details of the story.

You're quick to lump those who disagree with you or even wish to just ask questions into some evil group that isn't on your side. Are we all agent provocateurs? As if I don't want Rove to be indicted. As if I don't care deeply about the DU community. As if I haven't admired and befriended Will Pitt throughout the many years we've been on this board together.

Just for asking questions? For expressing healthy skepticism? Really?

Thing is, in the endgame, the story may prove correct. It might absolutely bear the correct dates to silence skeptics. You might be absolutely right. But if that happens, wouldn't you still regret your words, for lumping sincere questioners into such a hideous group?

Posts like this scare the hell out of me.

[Snivi Yllom]

69. Don't forget Pitt blew it on Ohio 2004 reporting Kerry would fight

didn't happen

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/122404Y.shtml

Kerry to Enter Ohio Recount Fray
By William Rivers Pitt
t r u t h o u t | Report

Thursday 23 December 2004

2004 Democratic Presidential candidate John Kerry will file today, in the United States District Court for the Southern District of Ohio, papers in support of the Green Party/Libertarian Party recount effort. Specifically, Kerry will be filing a request for expedited discovery regarding Triad Systems voting machines, as well as a motion for a preservation order to protect any and all discovery and preserve any evidence on this matter.

Triad Systems has come under scrutiny recently after Sherole Eaton, deputy director of elections for Hocking County, swore out an affidavit in which she described her witnessing the tampering of electronic voting equipment by a Triad representative. Rep. John Conyers, the ranking minority member of the House Judiciary Committee, has requested an investigation into this matter by the FBI and the Hocking County prosecutor.

Truthout will have more on this specific Triad allegation later in the day.

Previously, the Green Party and Libertarian Party have not fared well in their efforts to get emergency orders regarding this matter in Ohio. In order to pass muster with a judge, the individual or group requesting an emergency order for such a recount must show both irreperable harm as well as a substantial chance for success on the merits. While Green and Libertarian representatives could theoretically be able to show irreparable harm, they could not establish a substantial chance for success on the merits, because no recount would deliver Ohio to either party.

Kerry's entry into this recount effort changes the math on this matter dramatically. He can likewise show irreparable harm, and unlike the Green and Libertarian candidates, he can also prove a substantial chance for success on the merits because he lost the Ohio vote by a statistical whisker.

It should be noted that Kerry's filing of these requests does not indicate his complete entry into the recount process, but does clearly indicate that he is moving decisively in that direction. His previous stance on the matter was based simply on his desire to defend the right to have a recount in the first place. The evidence of election tampering in Ohio, specifically surrounding Triad, has motivated him to actively join the fight. The Democratic Party is also quietly putting financial resources into the Ohio recount effort.

Perhaps the most significant aspect of all this, from the activist point of view, has been the effectiveness of the telephone calls and letters to Kerry. The activist push to get him involved had a significant effect on his decision to enter this effort. Likewise, calls to other Senators in order to convince them to join House members in challenging the election have likewise had significant effect. If such an effort continues, the activists involved will very likely see the desired result unfold.

[Harper_is_Bush]

48. Still at it, huh?

Can you PLEASE put the tube back on the toothpaste when you're done?

[sandnsea]

4. He should tell the truth as he knows it

That's all anybody has. Nobody should suggest he do anything other than be true to himself.

[EminenceFront]

8. Drama

:popcorn:

24 hours isn't 24 hours, it's business hours. :smoke:

24 business hours is Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, but Friday is D-Day. :wtf:

Apparently some reporter who has a history of bad reporting is really telling the truth this time. :nopity:

Karl Rove set him up. :wow:

A story acquired through unnamed sources is denied by well known named sources, but other unnamed sources claim the well known named sources were lying. :tinfoilhat:

Damn, my friends have always told me I had impeccable timing. I picked a heck of a time to find this place and sign up. This is great!

:hi:

[ruggerson]

17. Don't worry, there are a number of sane people here as well

Welcome to DU.

[insane_cratic_gal]

9. Did you not feel he was being attacked enough?

So you had to start a whole new thread?

Come on guys.. I think Will's ass has been over the flame for the last 3 days. It certainly hasn't been your asses on the line.

Can we minimize the Will Pitt Roast to ONE BBQ session instead of slamming him in individual threads?

[Last Stand]

11. Agreed. Can't we give this a rest? nt

[smb]

62. If his ass is over the flame...

...it's because he parked it there by neglecting BASIC jornalistic principles about getting confirmation before sounding off in public.

[insane_cratic_gal]

65. But you don't need to keep throwing fuel on it do you?

I think everyone seems to neglect this has no negative effect on you, only on Will.

DOn't give me the crap about the Blogosphere being wounded, It was one blog.

Not like Rather didn't get it wrong. Or he got it right just a minor detail that threw the story out of whack. Does anyone doubt that Bush got a free pass when he was in the military.

As I stated it's no one's ass on the line but Will and Jason who did put it there, It's only us who are throwing fuel on the flames to make sure it stays crispy.

[stop the bleeding]

10. HERE ARE WILL'S WORDS FOR ANYONE WHO GIVES A SHIT

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1217129&mesg_id=1217212

WilliamPitt (1000+ posts) Wed May-17-06 04:02 PM
Original message

"When the documents come out

they will have dates on the top.

Those dates will be Friday May 12, 2006.

Just as we said. "

[Justice Is Comin]

43. We need a new avatar

of a figure taking Alka Seltzer.

[Bluebear]

12. William Rivers Pitt - The Box Set

Collect the whole set!

[IChing]

13. Why don't you retract this flame bait thread?

:mad: :argh:

[tuvor]

16. Agreed. Apologizing in the subject line for what you're about to do...

...smells more than a bit disingenuous.

[Catherine Vincent]

15. I thought Leopold wrote the story?

:crazy:

[uppityperson]

19. picky picky picky

:toast:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. Hey....don't bother that poster, he's on an apologetic roll.

[Perky]

20. I for on, am just tired of playing "Charlie Brown" to the Blogger's Lucy.

They keep putting out the football...promising this news is the real deal; that indictments are imminent...and we, zealous for the the bloodletting to begin...fall for this time after time.


I have nothing against WIll or Leopold or anyone else who writes for the blogs. But sooner or later we need to stop making excuses for so-called Journalists who do not do their homework. It's not always the MSM who is hiding the truth because the coporate muckity-muck told them to.. SOmetime bloggers get it wrong...sometime they make it up. A lot of times we are just to plain gullible

If Bloggers want to be taken seriously as "journalists" they damn well better act like journalists, ethically and with a zealousness for the truth. Seems to me a lot of the bloggers sit behind the computers and make up some flights of fancy solely to get people on their sites to generate greater Banner Ad revenue.

If they want to be taken seriously they need to stop acting like the political equivalent to a supermarket tabloid.

Again, this is not directed at Will or Leopold, but we continue to get baited by promises these folks put out and we need to slap them around when they get it wrong.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. Incredible. If you can do what Will, Jason and others do for a living....

...then lets see it. Show us what you got.

[Perky]

36. What does that have to do with my post??

All I am saying is that if Bloggers want to be taken seriously....more seriously than MSM, then they need to get their journalistic act together... IT IS NOT ABOUT TALENT...It is about jouranlistic professionalism.

They want to compete with MSM, then they ought to be held to a similar standard on fact gethering and attributable quotes. I am not saying they should be held to a higher standard....just not a lower one because they are Democrats, liberals or progressives.

[Jazz2006]

56. It has nothing to do with your post... and everything to do with that

particular poster's unceasing willful blindness and hit & run tendencies.

[theboss]

64. If a doctor commits malpractice, do I have to try surgery myself?

If I went to have my left leg operated on, and the doctor amputated my right leg, would you say, "If you think surgery is so simple, try it yourself?"

If a mechanic forgets to put oil in my engine, would you tell me, "If you think auto repair is easy, try it yourself?"

Why am I being told to be a journalist then?

This is the profession Will has chosen and it has made him a minor celebrity among the Internet crowd. He should try to be competent.

[arwalden]

35. Excellent Analogy!

:thumbsup:

[lonestarnot]

21. Eat your fucking words! The indictments are sealed. Leopold was right!

[SheepyMcSheepster]

22. There's this neat thing called email!

Private Messages are quite nice too I hear.
With these tools you can communicate with someone like William Pitt in private.
No need to bring this drama in here.

[lonestarnot]

34. Or in the case of James Robertson and that other freak.... gmail.

[Vinnie From Indy]

23. I have read that the indictment could have been delivered, but

Fitzgerald is not compelled to announce it until he determines the moment is appropriate. Maybe LeftyLawyer could answer whether this is true and whether Rove and his camp could be prevented from revealing that they were indeed served with an indictment. Either way, I will give them the benefit of the doubt for a while longer.

[Halliburton]

24. Agree 100%

The article is too far fetched to be believed. I have a hard time believing that the 4th floor of Patton Boggs was totally locked by the secret service or that Fitz and Luskin met for 15 hours on a Friday night. This stuff is outrageous and doesn't make any sense.

[Vinnie From Indy]

27. I am curious about that fact as well

15 HOURS? What in Sam Hell could they have to discuss for 15 hours?

[TankLV]

25. Questioning a DU sacred cow! Pass the popcorn!

No matter how you look at it, the prediction did NOT come to pass.

No matter how you may be disappointed, the OP has a VERY VALID POINT.

Just more intrigue for those who will eventually write the made-for-TV or Movie script!

Nobody could MAKE this stuff up!

[Halliburton]

30. Leopold's article is actually quite hilarious

you have to ask yourself, where the hell does he come up with some of this stuff?

[Moloch]

59. Well, Leopold is an admitted drug addict.

Maybe some of it is hallucinatory?

[Sperk]

26. What story of Will's is he to retract? I don't get it.... I thought Jason

wrote the story and Will only said he trusted that it be true? You can't put the Genie back in the bottle. Either Will was correct to trust Jason's story and/or Jason's trust in his sources, or he wasn't.

Am I missing something?

[Stand and Fight]

33. Patience is the only answer here.

No one knows anything for certain, so why get yourself all worked up?

Just wait it out and see.

I have found that I haven't reason to believe one way or another.

[kurth]

53. Yep. Go drink some beer, watch TV, have sex, and before ya know it

Voilà! You will be rudely and pleasantly interrupted.

Any day now.

[fooj]

39. OMG!

Please STOP this. NOW!

[femrap]

42. Sorry Shane....but Rove would NEVER hide from public eyes.....

even if he were facing death by a firing squad. Of course, he is out in public....continuing to do his job. That doesn't surprise me in the least.

What do you think he would be doing? Hiding under the covers? Crying to his mistress? Eating Ben & Jerry's while watching soap operas? Fuck no....he holds his head high and continues to fuck as many dems as he can.

The man is Satan personified.

Retract? Geez....you sure throw in the towel awfully quick. I wouldn't want you on my team. You give in way too easily. I'm a fighter...and in my bones I feel an indictment for Rove. Maybe he has been promised a Pardon from W....so he doesn't worry so much. But this game is far from over....we have only begun to fight.

Give in? Retract? What's wrong with you?

Every Official A named by Fitzgerald has been indicted.....every one of them.

[Semblance]

44. ?

I cannot understand posts like yours. It's as if you think:

Leopold is correct = Rove indicted

Leopold is wrong = Rove will never be indicted

Why are you asserting this false dichotomy?

[femrap]

50. Think you responded to the wrong post.....

Did you enjoy your college class today....it's kinda fun trying out new words, isn't it? Logic is fun!

[Horse with no Name]

46. I appreciate you starting this thread

This is the first I have heard of this....Is this your scoop?

[Marr]

47. Why is this a big deal? I don't expect anyone to have a crystal ball.

Sources predicted something, and it (thus far) hasn't happened. It's not a big deal.

[last1standing]

49. Why is everyone taking this so personally?

A news story was issued that turned out to have erroneous statements in it. This isn't new or something confined merely to Truthout. Every news outlet in history has had events like this happen and very few have ever issued "corrections" or offered a mea culpa.

I understand that Will Pitt posts here and that makes many people feel they have a stake in what he and Truthout post on their website, but none of us really does. Will and Jason are free to post anything they like and the rest of us are free to believe it or not as we see fit. And please don't start up with the tire line that by being wrong, Truthout has in some way damaged the credibility of DU or even the Democratic party. How many times has coulter, world news daily, 700 club, rush limbaugh, fox news, or any of the other right wing sleaze merchants apologized (or even acknowledged) a factual mistake? That doesn't seem to have hurt the membership of free republic or damaged the repub party. In other words, take a deep breath and try to gain some perspective.

If Will, Jason, or anyone else at Truthout reads this, I wish you well and hope that the main facts of the story bear out in the end. Until that time, good luck.

[King Coal]

57. I wish we were back in the day when you could challenge a man to a duel.

It would be great to "call one of them out" (Jason or Will) at high noon for having the audacity to say that Karl Rove was anything but benevolent. But, I'd just get my ass shot off. Peppered anyway.

Dueling with a hair trigger just tempts the fickle finger of fate.

[Karmakaze]

60. You know what?...

Either way, DU comes out smelling like roses. If the story is correct, we can point to all the support it got here and say DU was on this from the beginning. If it turns out incorrect, we can point to all the doubt it got here and say DU doubted it from the beginning :)

I think part of the anger over this goes back to an issue a long time ago about fundraising done here and elsewhere on the web for an ill DUer (who has since passed on). Many people here began to have doubts about the fundraising, but that was taken to extremes by some (including right wingers who came here to stir up shit) and turned into direct accusations of fraud.

Will Pitt was heavily involved with that, and he staked his reputation on it. He was ultimately vindicated, but I believe the scars still are pretty raw. Now he is seeing the same thing happen again, and I think that has made him and his supporters react more strongly than even last time.

So that accounts, I believe, at least subconciously, for some of the anger from Will and his supporters.

I also believe that a lot of people have come to distrust ANYTHING they are told by ANYBODY. They WANT this to be true, but they have been let down so many times, that they are reacting not to the story itself, but to the possibilty it is wrong. They don't want to be seen as suckers if it turns out to be wrong so they are attacking the story itself. If THEY are wrong, all they have done (in their minds) is question - if they are NOT, then they proved to be no man's fool. In other words its a defensive reaction.

Of course, like the time I mentioned above, some people on both sides are likely to be right wingers just here to stir up shit.

The real problem is both sides have every right (except the shit stirrers) to hold their opinion, but by doing so they inflame the other, which only makes things worse. It is right to question a story, no matter who it comes from, when you are being asked to accept it on trust. At the same time Will and his supporters have every right to believe it and to be defensive over questions or accusations - unless of course the story is KNOWINGLY false.

Myself, I have questions over the story. At the same time, I believe that Will can be arrogant at times, but that he has to some degree earned the right to be a little arrogant. He worked real hard to turn what was simple bitching here on DU into actual results in the real world as have others. He also stuck his neck out in a major way in an attempt to save a man's life, and he was called everything from a liar to a thief for it, often by people he thought he could trust, and he did this for NOTHING - not fame, not reward, but simply for a friend.

So, if this story turns out not to be true, it won't change a thing for me in regards to my respect for the man. I have no doubt whatsoever that Will believes every word of what was reported on Truthout, and that if he is wrong, it would not be because he didnt do his utmost to make sure it is true. The man is simply not a liar. I can;t say the same for Leopold, but if Will believes it, then Im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt too.

I don't know if the story is true. I hope it is, but from what I have heard so far, I would not be too shocked if it wasn't. If that happens, it will mean nothing to me except that Will once again stuck his neck out for something he believed in, and in this particular case he got burned. But as far as I am concerned I would prefer the Will who sticks his neck out over the right wing assholes who stick everyone else's necks out to save their own.

[DS1]

63. Hooray! We're all so completely and collectively two-faced

that we can point to being right either way!

I'm so fucking happy now ! :bounce:

[Karmakaze]

67. No, what I am saying...

is that DU - the entity, not any particular group of posters - is neutral. No matter where it all leads, DU itself has provided the means by which both sides can air their opinions - which is a hell of a lot more than say Free Republic does - don't agree with the admins at FR and you are gone, no matter what.

Also, if you note my smilie, you will see Im am talking in jest. The fact is, some section of DU is right, some section is wrong, but DU itself was right either way because both sections had their chance to air their view here.

[Sammy Pepys]

66. Great post

I know it's been said a million times here, but I'm just getting tired of this. It seems more about ego than getting the story right at this point.

[madokie]

68. I say we quit beating up on Will, enough already

If you are not doing anything then maybe you won't be making any mistakes. I do things and I make mistakes, no big deal, I learn much more from my mistakes anyway. and to me that is what it is all about. IMHO

[Skinner]

70. Locking

Continue discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1224473