A question about illegals and Minimum wage - I am confused!

[The Straight Story]

Illegals working for dirt cheap, below minimum wage for example, and yet they are surviving on such wages.

How?? Is it indicative that American workers are not willing to come together at lower wages and live together (which is what I have seen over time with various different groups)?

We push a minimum wage, yet these folks make it ok with less than that. How??

In my experience with friends here illegally (Mainly from countries other than Mexico) it has been thusly: They have made it well because they all live together in cramped quarters. As an example of this, my friend Phukam Chokbanbahn (I butchered the spelling). Back in the late 80's and early 90's he and his friends lived here together - sharing rent, monthly bills, and so on. Phukam drove a real nice mercedes. They all made less than minimum wage - but were able to afford much nicer things than I was because they lived together (ie, several families in same home). I supported a wife and 3 kids on a small wage. They support a similar instance but also shared all the bills amongst themselves.

So my question goes to Minimum wage: Is the amount the problem or the people making it??

How is it that illegals here can make less than the avg American yet have nicer things? Is it because we have a different standard of living? Is it that we feel entitled to more as individuals versus the group?

How can we complain about illegals driving down wages when they are happy with what they make? Perhaps we are the problem, not them. Maybe we can learn something from them.

How is it that illegals here, making terrible wages, can be happier than residents that make more than they do?? Is the problem corporations or us and what we desire (ie, consumerism versus survivalism)?

I don't oppose a minimum wage, I am all for it. I am just wondering how folks migrating here can do as well if not better than the avg American.

[FloridaPat]

1. We have standards we must keep. Big house, lots of kids, both

couples with great careers, expensive cars, big screen TV, computers, expensive clothings etc. Oh, yeah, big credit card debts. We support a whole slew of industries with our pursuit of "things". These illegals are happy with what they got. How can you run a major world economy on happy people happy with what they want and not going after the latest gimmick? They're slowing us down. They don't pay banks 25% interest on credit cards. They pay as they go because they don't have the papers to get in debt up to their ears. Toss them out!

More :sarcasm:

[treestar]

36. Amen! Our "needs" are for them, irrelevant.

[BlackVelvet04]

2. If you had ever been to a large

border town in Mexico you would understand. 10 people to an apartment is a helluva lot better than a cardboard box. They have a completely different frame of reference.

[noamnety]

3. You've made some assumptions here

1. Undocumented immigrants have nicer things than the average American.
2. Undocumented immigrants are happy with what they make.
3. Undocumented immigrants are happier overall than the rest of the population.


Probably we need to address the accuracy of those statements before moving into the causes. You seem to have anecdotal evidence of one small group of people that has a nice car. Not convinced that's enough to draw conclusions from.

You'd also have to look at the basic needs that are vaguely addressed in your "and so on" phrase. Did they have health insurance, for example?

This site was recently linked on DU - it shows a budget for a family living in poverty. Look at where the dollars are going - it's not to big screen tv's. http://www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/tour2.htm

[The Straight Story]

4. Addressing those things:

1. What does 'nicer' things mean really?

2. Happy with what they make?? They are coming here for such wages - would they do so if they were not happy with such wages?

3. Happier than overall population - I guess that depends on what the avg population needs to make them happy.

[noamnety]

9. I was sort of asking YOU those questions

Guess I didn't make that clear.

1. You stated they have nicer things. I'm asking you to define that.

2. If they are coming here for wages, it's safe to say they are better wages (or safer working conditions, or something) than what they'd have gotten if they didn't come here. That is NOT the same as being happy with the wages. Accepting the lesser of two bad choices does not equate to being happy.

3. You're made a blanket statement that they are "happier" than the overall population. Are there any grounds for that statement? What are you basing it on?

[treestar]

37. Anyone in a third world country is happy with making anything

close to minimum wage. The average American would consider it a disaster. A job that does not support them.

Mexicans even send money home. It is all relative. Poor common sense would tell you that they are happy with wages that we would consider not enough.

[1monster]

5. You think we should live four or five families to a single family home?

Why? So the CEOs of big corporations can be given even more money than the obscene amounts they already get?

I don't think it is a high standard of living if you have fifteen or more people living in a three bedroom, two bath house, no mater how nice a car they drive or how good the quality clothing they wear, etc.

A space of one's own is not a luxury item as far as I'm concerned. It is a necessity. I'd go stark staring crazy without it.

Several families cramped into one small house is only great if what one comes from is seriously worse.

[treestar]

38. Your last sentence explains it.

[MrTriumph]

6. Clueless & insulting Straight Story heralds Republican talking points

Give us a break, SS. American workers are not the problem. Seeking a living wage is not the problem.

I have seen with my own eyes Am. employers house 15-30 illegal workers. It is called exploitation.

And by the way, bonehead, illegals may work for less, but in Mexico those American dollars go far.

[The Straight Story]

10. I am not a bonehead :)

Just relaying what I have seen and asking some questions - perhaps that is the buddhist in me showing through.

How much do we need? Is our standard too high?

[acmejack]

13. Probably, we've become accustomed to more than we need.

First time I went overseas I was struck by the poverty. As you say, even well to do people in many societies make do with much more modest life styles. Soon our's shall be involuntarily adjusted to conform more closely with the world's norm, I would imagine.

[The Straight Story]

16. And perhaps that is the point

We 'need' more than others. Or do we?

[acmejack]

19. The truest words ever penned:

"Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"- Kris Kristofferson

The more you have the more hold on you they have. The more control can be exerted upon you.

[cornermouse]

7. Well, if you're so convinced that putting multiple families

under one roof is so wonderful, it shouldn't be too hard for you and your wife to invite both of your sets of parents (are any of them divorced and remarried because that could make things interesting all by itself) and maybe some siblings to move in with you. And, hey, if all else fails you could just put an ad in the paper for housemates. Rots of ruck.

[The Straight Story]

14. Actually, not a bad idea, except:

My mom is dead, so she won't be moving in.

If it was needed I would invite them all in - as dad has done. His great grand-daughter, my Brother and his wife, and so on - all live with dad. And it has helped them all a ton.

My bro makes it better than I do on a lot less. Dad and he have it made - partially because the city does not know more than two families live in one household (which mystifies me - we live in a city of dems but if they knew my bro lives with my dad there would be major trouble).

[cornermouse]

30. Right....

If you're married, don't expect to stay that way. Any spouse with anything that resembles a backbone will NOT accept a situation like that.

[Finder]

33. Not to digress, but historically...

living with extended family has proven to be a positive.

Less domestic abuse. Children are cared for by relatives.(no daycare/babysitters needed). Pooled incomes. Housework is shared.

Now of course living in a one bedroom apt is a bit tight and would be unhealthy, but I was addressing the extended family comment.

[treestar]

41. Absolutely, and other cultures still do that. The Waltons.

[cornermouse]

42. Not all extended families should live together.

It leaves parents open to interference and criticism from their parents. If you have an interfering parent who refuses to give up the attempt to control their adult child's life, trust me it ain't gonna be pretty. And two women trying to arrange and run the same house isn't particularly good either. I would predict a lot of fights there as well.

Pooled incomes? One of the biggest causes of break up of marriages is due to money and the way it is spent or not spent. Are your spending practices so identical to your parents that there would be no disagreements about why you spent some of the pooled money on something or whether you might be spending more than what you earned? This is just asking for trouble.

[Finder]

44. Most of the rest of the world lives this way.

Outside major cities, that is. The pooled income is for bills/food, etc. so nobody can spend more than the other.

Imagine owning a few acres of land and partitioning it off for the individual families. Of course under the tax system in the US it would not be feasible now, but it was at one time.

[readmoreoften]

48. Except Europe and all those places...

Most 3rd world countries are struggling to get OUT of this situation. I absolutely cannot believe that DUers are suggesting that we enter it.

1st world countries have not lived this way for 100 years.

[Finder]

51. Not true...

Other countries, 1st world including do not have the same retirement/nursing home system we do here. Elderly are taken care of by family.

Nobody is saying we should live communally, just that it is not uncommon and as terrible as some make it out to be.

[readmoreoften]

54. That's a far cry from living 4 families to a 2 bedroom apt. /nt

[bobbieinok]

56. Switzerland does; I assume Germany and Scandinavia countries do

[treestar]

40. Emotionalist response that tries to make it personal.

Pointless. Nobody who can afford not to do that will.

The point is why be so resentful of those so poor they have to do it? And they do it.

[cornermouse]

43. Maybe because he was trying to push

a proposition that really is not a good idea. Resentment? You're stretching for that one.

[many a good man]

8. Confused? Maybe you're asking the wrong questions

Minimum wage and drives a Mercedes...hmmm.

[The Straight Story]

11. Not sure I understand your comment

Nor I am not sure I care really :)

Well, I guess do.

PK could afford more than I could because he and his friends spread things around better than I did at that time. I had one income, they had 3-4 at least.

I suppose I wanted a lot more for my one income than they did fore their several. Perhaps I was the problem and not them?

[OffWithTheirHeads]

17. A used Mercedes is a lot cheaper than

A new chevy. Not only that but the minute you drive the Chevy off the levey, you have lost money. Lots of money. I have known for decades that you are better off buying a used German car than a new American one! I would much rather spend 20K on a used Porsche Boxter than 30K on a pickup truck. Guess which one will hold its value better. Been there, done that. I have owned seven Porche's (Porche is a two syllable word Por che). I drove each of them for approximatly 30,000 miles and traded them in for more than I paid for them. Try that with a Ford pickumup truck. I have owned a number of Mercedes. All used. I got a much better value than any new American car I could have purchased. You can buy a nice Benz for A LOT less than a new Hundaie. Which would you rather drive?

The fact that you drive a Benz does not equate to large quantities of disposable income, rather, it speaks to intellegent use of the capital you have available and how to preserve it.

[readmoreoften]

49. Most immigrants do not drive Mercedes and have "nicer things"

The comment is absurd. I live between NYC and Texas, both communities with lots of immigrants. They do not have "nicer things" or "mercedes". Most Mexican immigrants have beaten pick up trucks that carry 10 people in the back. They shop in flea markets set up by their neighbors where they buy cheap chinese crap without the Walmart mark up.

Next you'll be suggesting that we live like Chinese factory workers.

[Jayhawk Lib]

12. Very good points.

We really do not have it as bad here as a lot of people are trying to say that it is.

[The Straight Story]

15. How can we have it so bad if people are dying to come here :)

If I had a choice between Mexico and here, I would come here as well. Why??

That, in and of itself, is an interesting question.

[Jayhawk Lib]

21. Very interesting thread..

You really have some us thinking....

[Cobalt Violet]

22. I guess the poor that DIED in Katrina may disagree with you.

I don't think they had it so good that they couldn't even get out of harms way.

[Sinti]

18. Landlords are more willing to allow several Hispanics to live in one place

If you try, as I have in my youth, to rent a one bedroom for two people they tell you it's illegal, no can do. Other than that, yes, the individuals I've known were probably perfectly happy without the big screen TV, and two cars in the garage. Then again, I can be perfectly happy with out any of the above.

That said: "Perhaps I was the problem and not them." I don't think so. I think every human being should expect a decent, livable wage for their efforts. Goodness knows the top management expect to live like kings. In 2003 35 percent of americans had to choose between food and rent at least one month out of the year, while CEOs make 400 times the average wage.

There will come a day when labor will no longer be considered a commodity to be bought at the cheapest possible price. We're human beings, too, for goodness sakes.

[The Straight Story]

23. Define liveable wage.

And who should get one.

My 20 yr old nephew lives at home, as does his half-sister, now 28. Which should make more?

[readmoreoften]

50. They should both make a livable wage.

What an idiotic question. What won't we need next?

You know, there are Mexicans in Mexico who have to walk for miles to get running water. For centuries human beings had to walk miles for water as well. Let's give up more salary so that we'll have to do that, too.

The rich republicans need our sacrifice.

[otherlander]

20. Maybe immigration wouldn't be a problem

if all workers, Mexican and American, would unite and demand living wages etc. That would eliminate the problem of Americans complaining that Mexicans were 'stealing their jobs', and it would be a lot better for the immigrants, too.

[The Straight Story]

25. I agree and disagree to some extent.

What is a livable wage? Does that mean on your own, or sharing a space with folks?

[otherlander]

29. wages that unions would demand

if immigrants weren't willing to work for less.
This whole citizen-worker vs. immigrant-worker thing just seems to me like it was designed by big buisness to pit laborers against each other, and keep them from uniting in the face of economic opression.

[1monster]

53. A livable wage means being able to afford the basics of life for yourself

and dependent family members without having to resort two or more incomes per family.

It wasn't that long ago that the male head of the household got paid enough to support his family while his wife stayed home to raise the kids.

Do I want to go back to the model where a woman basically was held back to the careers of housewife, nurse, waitress, school teacher, or cashier? No! No way, no how. But I do want to got back to the time where it is a family decision as to whether or not both parents work or one works and one stays home.

I grew up in a family of nine kids and two parents. My father worked and my mother stayed home.

My father didn't get paid a lot, but we had adequate space to live (an old farm house), enough food (okay, so it was mostly store brands, and we did buy a quarter of a cow every year when the farmers butchered), a nice console stereo with loads of records and a television that got one station (pre cable days :)), lots of books (book club prices and the library was a weekly stop).

Today, there are four of us in my family and we have three incomes. We are making more money together than we ever did in the past and we can't keep up. Medical bills piled up despite having health insurance and the health and dental insurances cost more than three hundred dollars more than my mortgage payment.

Ask those illegals what they do without before you decide that we ask for too much pay...

[Nevernose]

24. A laundry list of things wring (and right) w. your post

Illegals working for dirt cheap, below minimum wage for example, and yet they are surviving on such wages.

The vast majority of the illegals working for below minimum wage are agricultural workers. Many in California actually sleep like homeless people, hiding in the fields or the deserts in the fields. Most of the others live in temporary shanty towns -- one such "town" in New Mexico has something like 250,000 people living in it at any given time, and without electricity, sanitation, or running water. Even the best treated agricultural workers -- like the ones in the Gov't sponsored migrant worker's community outside of Hope, Arkansas -- often get "room and board" amounting to little more than a roof and subsistance rations. The sad thing is, it's still better than what their lives would have been like in Central America. Hey, at least there's no death squads, right?

Most of the ones earning minimum wage, and I don't care how big or prosperous the company is, are not reporting to the IRS many of their workers or underreporting the amount paid and the hours worked. Cash is King. Illegals often pay a lot less in taxes for those reasons. While I have never been an illegal alien, I have worked the crappy job circuit that most Americans aren't even exposed to, for a decade and for much of that time with a kid, and I've seen firsthand ways of screwing the Government that a lot of folks couldn't even imagine.

How?? Is it indicative that American workers are not willing to come together at lower wages and live together
The poor American workers do this all the time. In most places it's usually multi-generational as opposed to inter-familial, but if you go to many cities, like New York, Chicago, or now Las Vegas, the only way even educated, degreed professions like teachers can afford to live is with roommates.

In my experience with friends here illegally...
Most of my experience w/ illegal immigrants has been with Latinos. Most of them, while not necessarily living together, are usually willing to accept substandard housing and DEFINITELY help each other out. They form tight-knit communities that work hard and help out anyone else working hard. "It takes a villiage," after all.

In fact, this summer I'm teaching summer school, and my daycare arrangements are being made with one of my student's mothers, an illegal immigrant who babysits an happens to be a parent of one of the finest, most ambitious students I've ever seen. Good home, good family, and reasonable pricing.

This particular family, in fact, may not be here much longer. The father went back to Mexico to visit the ghrandfather he hasn't seen in years, dying of cancer. It's 3k to cross the border again through Tijuana (he's too old for the 1/2 price desert trek through Arizona), and if they notice the fake papers, there's no refund. If he doesn't make it through, the whole family has to go back, since w/o him they can't pay the bills. I feel bad for them, because everyone in the family is what an American should aspire to be: honset, hard-working, and upstanding residents/citizens.

...but were able to afford much nicer things than I was because they lived together (ie, several families in same home). I supported a wife and 3 kids on a small wage.


So my question goes to Minimum wage: Is the amount the problem or the people making it??

How is it that illegals here can make less than the avg American yet have nicer things? Is it because we have a different standard of living? Is it that we feel entitled to more as individuals versus the group?
Different cultures, different values. I, for one, would rather live alone w/ my kid and drive a POS than share space with three other families. For me, with my Anglo-Saxon/Calvinistic heritage, a little space from others IS the American Dream; for your friend, it appears tha material goods were the American Dream.

How can we complain about illegals driving down wages when they are happy with what they make? Perhaps we are the problem, not them. Maybe we can learn something from them.

How is it that illegals here, making terrible wages, can be happier than residents that make more than they do?? Is the problem corporations or us and what we desire (ie, consumerism versus survivalism)?

I don't oppose a minimum wage, I am all for it. I am just wondering how folks migrating here can do as well if not better than the avg American.

AS I've mentioned: the lack of income taxation helps a lot, as does the willingness to live communally.

More random thoughts: most construction workers, even illegally, earn more than minimumn wage. They also have no bank accounts, which require a SSNumber, and thus no savings. Most illegals, even the ones driving Mercedes, have no savings account. They do, from my anecdotal experience, still manage to save, even if it's under the mattress. Most illegals I know don't NEED that new 50" plasma, or that new house, or that new RV, or that new car. There are exceptions, sure, but most of the illegals I've known are not living a lifestyle most Americans would envy.

For every illegal driving a used German car, there are ten more taking the bus; for every one TIVOing last night's Univision novella, there are ten more w/o cable or even a TV at all. They're just as poor as we are, just as desperate, and just as materialistic -- and just as willing as us to do whatever it takes.

[The Straight Story]

26. A well stated an honest view

For which I thank you.

I was thinking of the amish the other night, and then of illegal immigrants. And it got me to thinking about americans in general and what they want out of a job. Maybe I am way off base on it all, but it did get me to thinking....

[cornermouse]

31. Yeah. About the Amish...

Not as nice as they appear from a distance.

From my experience, if you're a non-Amish female, don't expect to be treated with respect because you almost certainly won't be. Doesn't matter if you're friendly or treat them nicely and haven't done anything that they object to, they're probably going to treat you like dirt.

Again, from my experience, if they live in the area expect to see highway signs accusing those who get a divorce of being fornicators and going to hell.

I had an acquaintance who married someone who left either the Amish on Mennonite church and although they were allowed to eat in the same house during holidays, they were not allowed to sit at the same table with the family. She put up with that so her kids could see their grandparents. I would not have.

[U4ikLefty]

27. How do you know they are happier...did you take a survey???

sad attempt.

[rucky]

28. It's a matter of public health.

my brother visits these homes for his masters in public health. It's not the swingin' party pad you describe.

[chelaque liberal]

32. I've read all of the post this far and think I know what you are

getting at.

Without making a comparison to Mexican immigrants, but simply noting American society, I think American values are misplaced.

We think we all need big houses, cars, every electronic gadget that comes on the market, rich (often unhealthy) food, more clothes than we will ever get to wear more than 2 or 3 times, gym memberships, fake fingernails (I know but that one really gets me), etc: but few people I know can really say they are happy. We are conditioned to always want "more".

The happiest time of my life was during my "hippie" years. I lived in the country. I had friends that really cared about each other. We raised most of our food and felt a connection with a life force by doing that. We baked bread and ate real, satisfying food which we savored. We sewed and felt a sense of accomplishment and creativity in doing so. We took care of each other's children, who were usually included in our activities. We helped each other cut wood, fix cars, paint houses. We got together often to share music and games. We got by on little but it never felt like it.

Then I moved to Atlanta (long story that I still don't understand), became a nurse, worked all of the time to afford the house that I slept in, ate fast food because I didn't have time to cook, and sadly, missed important years in my children's lives.

Now I frequently hear people complain about only making $75,000 a year, but I rarely hear anyone say they are happy.

[Finder]

34. Happy communists--gasp!

which is the reason communal/shared/simple living has been demonized. Of course living communally does not make one a communist per se, but that is why that mode of living is discouraged.IMO

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Simplicity is good, but below subsistence is not.

IMHO, below minimum wage, living in a dormitory is an inadequate quality of life as it precludes having a family.

[treestar]

35. There was a thread awhile back, someone complaining

we are "not allowed to work" on the terms that illegal aliens do. The minimum wage causes unemployment, that is just a reality of capitalism. Any job that is worth less is just not able to exist. The company that would have had someone doing that job does not grow.

Sometimes I think big companies are behind all the laws that restrict employers or burden them with the cost of enforcing laws (tax withholding, child support orders, immigration status). They can afford it and they knew that up and coming new competitors can't afford to even go into business. For a small business, it is very expensive to make a first hire.

Our culture has gone with individualism and the nuclear family. Other cultures still have extended family support.

[Finder]

39. Many are paid more than minimum wage...

but the employers that do exploit workers should be the focus, not the people.

If it was possible to rally undocumented workers, it should be possible to find out who the exploiters are.

[WestSeattle2]

47. Exactly, that's the problem....

Around these parts, many illegals are working construction, landscaping, and other semi-skilled jobs for $15-$20\hour. American workers were being paid $25-$30 for the same work! Employers love it! Pay these illegals under the table and they're saving $10-$15 in actual labor costs, plus they don't have to pay taxes or benefits.

Illegals love it, because $15-$20 under the table tax free, is the same as $22-$30\hr legal workers get.

The argument, "American's won't do the work" is absolute bullshit. They won't do the work for substandard wages is the true situation.

As long as semi-skilled workers have to compete with illegal's for work, they'll continue to get screwed. And believe me, home prices and landscaping isn't any cheaper for the consumer here, employers pocket the savings.

Start throwing employers in prison for 5 years, and this bullshit will stop. No fence, no new laws, no forcing people back to Mexico. All of these issues will fade away when employers are forced to pay American's, American wages.

They can't offshore construction or landscaping jobs.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. The illegals you have in mind don't have family here

If they had family here, the dormitory style sleeping arangements would be unacceptable.

A minimum wage should not be so low that it precludes having a family.

[Recursion]

52. Two separate questions

A lot of undocumented workers don't make less than minimum wage. Supply and demand are still in effect here; if a worker is willing to do work or has skills that other workers don't, he can command a pretty good salary. Here in DC construction teams going to day labor sites looking for hands are offering $100+ cash bonuses per day to attract them, in addition to a $120 per day wage.

Also keep in mind that someone working without documentation probably doesn't pay FICA levies or income tax withholdings. The guys I mentioned working construction do, but the archetypal dishwasher in a big restaurant probably doesn't (and when labor is tight, even dishwashers can make a lot more than minimum wage in a big restaurant). That means an undocumented worker earning minimum wage is taking home significantly more than a documented worker with the same nominal income. Farm workers are still getting shafted, but that strikes me as a very different population from urban undocumenteds.

Another thing, though I hate to generalize, is that the type of person who's going to take all the risks to leave his home behind him and sneak into a country and work illegally is probably a person who is
A) risk-taking and entrepenureal
B) thrifty
C) aggressive at going after what he wants
D) willing to make whatever sacrifices he needs to achieve his goals

So they probably will find a way to be successful. (I'd also add, these are *exactly* the sort of people we *want* to come to America, so if anything we should favor the "illegals".)

As for the point about the Mercedes, I see that a lot too. My guess is just that it's the phenomenon of new money. When you're making more than you've ever made in your life, maybe even a smart person will buy something flashy just because he can. It fills a psychological need to say that he "made it". Or something.

[Nikia]

55. I might get flamed but living communaly might be a good idea

I think that this would espeically be good for poor single mothers. They could take turn watching each others children, split housework duties, and split costs. The children would also be exposed to more people. This would also discourage the mothers from jumping into relationships with men, who might be abusive to them or their children, out of desperation for finanical support and companionship.
I see nothing wrong with living with extended families or friends. The practice does seem to be somewhat stigmatized in mainstream America though.
Although I did not live with my extended family, both sets of grandparents and many of my aunts, uncles, and cousins did live within a few miles. My sister and frequently stayed with both grandparents and visited weekly with other family members. I think that I would have actually preferred living in an extended family situation.

[Solon]

57. The problem is the law and what is absolutely needed for...

a healthy living. Every human being on the planet needs some space, even if its just a little, for example, if you have an average 1 br apartment, having 4 single mothers with their children living in it is simply unhealthy. But having 4 single mothers living in a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment would be a little safer for both the kids and the mothers. Now the law is a different matter entirely, for example, some cities have "anti-brothel" laws still on the books, usually defined as no more than 3 women are allowed to live together unless they are blood related. Other cities have general anti-communal living laws, ones where they limit how many people can live in a single house or apartment unless they are either married or blood related. An example that was brought up the the local news is a couple who isn't married yet, she has 3 kids, the oldest not by the man she is going to get married with, he is the father of the younger two kids, they been together for years, and they moved into a house they just bought, the city balked at the idea that they can live together, they are violating the law, and either HAVE to get married right now to avoid the fine, or get rid of the oldest kid, fucked up laws all around, both of them.

[Finder]

59. So much for freedom, eh?

Laws like that are what hold people down...especially women.

[Finder]

60. Snopes has a page on this...

http://www.snopes.com/college/halls/brothel.asp

I tried to track down the laws you mentioned.

[Solon]

61. I can tell you about a city in my area that has that law...

Oddly enough, its University City, no 4 unrelated women may live together within city limits, not a surprise really, they have a LOT of stupid laws. Also, the example I gave was for the town of Blackjack around here, made it to DU, but can't find the link.

They are the last city here, and I lived there, BTW, and when I and my two female roommates moved in we had to pay a "Residency fee" stating who was living there, etc. Had to keep the paperwork too!

http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/missouri/

[Finder]

58. No flames from me...

I grew up for many years in a 2 bedroom apt. with 5 adults and 5 children. Several younger cousins lived with us off and on and sometimes we had as many as 14 living in that one apartment. My father was able to save up the down payment on a house by the time I was a teen. Sure it was tight and at times uncomfortable, but we were taught that sacrificing pays off. It made it a lot easier to get through the ups and downs of life.