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Rocknrule Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:25 PM
Original message
Was Jesus really a liberal?
His beliefs sure as hell weren't conservative, but on the other hand, I don't think he would want to be associated with any political group, plus in those days, there was no such thing as liberal or conservative. What do you think? If Jesus came back today would he be liberal or apathetic?
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UrbScotty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. He certainly wouldn't bash gays (nt)
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leftofthedial Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. he'd be very dry
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
3. Definitely liberal.
All about helping the poor... and not just by giving money to the leaders of a temple for them to distribute in whatever way they wish.

Also, he was all about not demonizing those with tarnished pasts, turning the other cheak and being pacifist, etc.

Seems to be a rather open and shut case actually!
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Sammy Pepys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ugh....
I hate all the attempts to politicize Jesus, quite frankly. I don't care what side of the aisle they come from. Just smacks a little too much of "God on our side"......
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Bitter Cup Donating Member (96 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
5. Do you believe being liberal is a "political group"?
I thought it was a way of looking at the world that just happened to be better represented by some political groups than others.
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Nashyra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. I heard something funny the other day
"I don't know if Jesus was a Republican or Liberal. I know he was a carpenter and a Teacher. Every Carpenter I know is a Democrat, every teacher I know is a Democrat and I do know that there is nowhere in the Bible where it says that Mary rode into Jerusalem on an Elephant."
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. Being Liberal Doesn't Necesarily Make You Part of a Political Group
I'd have to say, yes... yes was a liberal.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
7. (Jesus wasn't a real person. Pass it on.)
:hi:
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Sssssh
Don't be a whackjob.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. ...
;)
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. Grannie just pegged you with a rolled up piece of paper
T-Grannie
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. No cookies for him, right!!!!
I get his cookies. I get his cookies. I get his cookies.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Maybe the broken pieces if he behaves.
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Norquist Nemesis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
8. Definitely Liberal.
One thing about Jesus, you could take him or leave him. It was his true self and character that helped gain a following vs. threats and punishment.
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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
9. I'd rather use the word progressive.
When it came to the religous and cultural norms of that time, he was definitely a progressive, and an humanist too.
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willing dwarf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. More than liberal
I don't think he cared much for labels, or for pigeon-holing. He definitely gave politics a wide berth-- render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's...-- but in his actions he was more than liberal. yes he was open minded and could see beyond the lines that divided people ethnically and by status and gender. But he more than that, he was a radical, revolutionary, ready to live out the teachings of the scriptures fearlessly, ready to bring about the jubilee right now. His deep connection to God gave him a confidence to do that, a confidence far beyond what ordinary people experience.
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Rocknrule Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Doesn't the "render undo Caesar" bit mean "separation of church & state?"
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willing dwarf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #12
35. Well yes,
it seems so to me for sure. I think he's identifying that the kingdom of God isn't concerned with money and power. "church" wasn't church back then. But nevertheless, I think you're right. I think Jesus would be sad to see what the people who claim to follow him are trying to get the government to do to further their cause.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:40 PM
Response to Original message
15. I think he might have been a bit more...
well... uncompromising? No, that's not the word. I can't think of one that won't get me flamed.

He certainly gravitated towards the dispossessed and the poor. But he had, it appears from the New Testament, strong opinions about sin.

T-Grannie
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Squeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Yes
And one of those strong opinions was that only those without sin should be casting stones.

As for his overall leanings, I think the latter verses of Matthew 25 are determinative.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. I agree
and have often looked in the mirror and pulled a few logs out of my eye.
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willing dwarf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. More a living tree than a plumb line.
Though I think that Jesus took the image from Nehemiah of the plumb line ( how sin, right & wrong were as clear as that, either you're on the right or wrong side of the line...) and in his life and self-sacrifice taught us that the law and the word had a life. As "the word made flesh" he embodied the changing groing newness of life itself, like a tree that grows and changes as it grows.

When Jesus said "I make all things new," and "I come to fulfill the law," and that he reconciles all things unto himself he was opening our eyes to the completeness of God's love for creation, something that extends far above and beyond our finite understanding, something that reaches far beyond sin and death.

The nature of God's love, made known in the life of Jesus, is one of love and tolerance beyond our comprehension, far wider than just liberal
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
18. actually he was a member of the People's Front of Judea...
:evilgrin:
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Opusnone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
19. He surely wouldn't sit a a keyboard opining
He'd be in the streets rousing the rabble.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Isn't that the truth!?
I doubt he would spend much time online.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
21. Not just a liberal, but a hairy, freaky hippie.
I have it on excellent authority that he is extremely partial to May '77 Grateful Dead.
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Let's face it
He probably smelled kind of bad by our standards.

I just can't see him putting on deodorant or having his back waxed, you know?
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Hey, I'm a hippie and I smell great.
I swear.

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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
22. He'd probaly be incarcerated at Gitmo.
He was a revolutionary who sought to overturn a corrupt system.
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Mandate My Ass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
23. If Jesus came back today, the conservatives would recrucify him
With his message of helping the poor (not questioning how they got that way or judging them), feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, not wearing your religion on your sleeve, turning the other cheek no matter what, keeping your nose out of others' private sex lives and giving away all that you have in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, you bet they'd be squealing for his head on a platter.

Especially if he had a blog and a following....
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Yes, they would
and not just the conservatives, either. I'm sure I would think he was odd as hell... some crazy homeless guy.
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Rocknrule Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. They'd say "You're old Christianity. We worship George W. Bush now"
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:47 PM
Response to Original message
28. He was rebelling against his dad. (n/t)
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genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
31. I think he would be pissed.
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sinkingfeeling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
32. Being 'liberal' or 'conservative' has nothing to do with a political
group or party. Those labels have been high-jacked! By definition, a liberal (n) is one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways. It's more of a mental state or way of life.

So Jesus would very much fit the description of a liberal.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
33. Since he was a teacher who understood cosmic Truths
1. We all are interconnected (even science tells us this)
2. What we do has an effect more far reaching than many realize or understand
3. That spiritual practices will get you to That which is sought

I would say that he would be what we term "liberal".
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
34. He wouldn't be political...
but he would speak truth to power and that would make him a very dangerous man. If it were conservatives in power, he would be branded a liberal etc.

He would not suffer fools, his words would be strong and direct. Those that were guilty of living corrupt lives would feel guilty and belittle him to make themselves look and feel better.

The poor would love him because he stood up for them but humans would still turn on him. The same thing would happen as it did those years ago because his is the son of God and we are still humans.

I hope that if he came, I would recognize him (I think I have located the AntiChrist though-except I thought he was suppose to be smart).

The line that would give Jesus the biggest belly laugh (IMHO)...Jesus is coming-act religous.

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tomg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
37. For a very interesting take, see Passolini's
"The Gospel According to Matthew." I can tell you one thing. Christ sure as hell didn't like occupying armies from imperialist governments ( which is not the same thing as not liking the soldiers who got stuck with that job). The conservatives love the "render to Caesar that which is Caesars" when he was asked about taxes and whether he supported the Roman occupation. Well, that was a pretty loaded question. In fact, his answer can be construed as either "go along, get along" if you were a collaborationist or, if you saw Israel as God's people or were a zealot, it could just as easily mean "resist." The Sermon on the Mount pretty much sums it up, and relative to his time, he was not a liberal, but he, at least by my reading, was a leftist.
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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. A marvellous film. A masterpiece. How different from the
chocolate-box versions of the Gospels turned out by Zeffireli and by Hollywood.
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VOX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
39. He was a radical leftist in his day, which is why he was executed...
He hung out with prostitutes, lepers, tax collectors, debtors, the blind and disabled, and other societal outcasts. His teachings were contrary to the power-brokers of the state-sanctioned religion, and he was disruptive enough to be deemed a threat by the regional head of the occupying power. Best to execute such a troublemaker and potential revolutionary.

If Jesus walked the earth today, would he be found working in an AIDS hospice, or being interviewed on the 700 Club? Would he be picketing "The Da Vinci Code," or walking with the undocumented workers?

You don't even have to be religious to know the answers. O8)
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Spinoza Donating Member (766 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. I don't think he was a "radical leftist".
He was a religious fanatic, a nutball who actually believed that he was more than human.
For example: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." - JOHN 14:6 If thats not fanaticism, what is?

In addition, the following quotes sure don't sound to me like a any "leftist" I ever heard of:

"I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery." -Matthew 5:32

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." -Matthew 10:34

"'Haven't you read,' he replied, 'that at the beginning the Creator "made them male and female," and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.'" -Matthew 19:4-6

""He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters." -Matthew 12:30

"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." -Matthew 21:22

"Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." -Matthew 10:37-39


"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer." -Matthew 21:22

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." -Mark 3:28-29

Actually, Jesus sounds kind of like an......evangelical.





















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Joe Chi Minh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 06:58 PM
Response to Original message
40. Though Jesus accepted a worldly political and economic
hierarchy, this should not to be confused with tolerance of economic injustice and oppression, and to that extent, he was an economic liberal.

Indeed, the aim of the whole of salvation history is our arrival at such justice on every level, not least economic, although when you read in the Old Testament of God defending the stranger, the orphan and the widow, the poor man, in short (most notably, during Lent), you could be forgiven for thinking that we have interpreted this as an invitation to a division of labour: with us making sure that the former, those closest to his heart, should on no account escape severe oppression meted out by us, and he remedying their plight and consoling them.

In matters of sexual morality and orthodoxy, he was just as unequivocally conservative. Not with a capital C, of course, as he evidently deplored politically-motivated judgementalism with regard to the sexual delinquency of others.
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Jade Fox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
43. Don't know, but check this out.....
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Jose Diablo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
44. No, he was a radical leftist
Edited on Thu May-04-06 07:58 PM by Jose Diablo
The type nobody wants around, then or now.

Edit: He didn't want to 'fix' or 'patch-up' the system, he wanted it dumped and another system set-up. That's not liberal or conservative, it's radical left.

Early Christianity was communal living. And what of those Agapee meals they had, sort of pot luck dinners, thats communal. He was definity socialist, there is no doubt in my mind he wasn't capitalist.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-04-06 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
45. If people actually followed Jesus's teachings...
...we wouldn't have to have invented socialism. -Unknown
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. *BUMP*
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never cry wolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
47. Definitely a liberal
Edited on Fri May-05-06 02:44 PM by never cry wolf
Here is a long snippet from an even longer email I once put together for a friend. Wether he actually walked the earth or not, the persona described in the Bible was a liberal.

on edit, the below I cut and pasted from a quick google search, they are not my words.

-----

If the right-wingers really studied the matter, they'd find they have more in common with Muhammad than with Jesus. Muhammad was a merchant, a businessman and entrepreneur - a capitalist. Before Jesus walked off his job, he was a carpenter, a common laborer - and with his talk of brotherhood, no doubt would have been a union man.

He hung out with the dregs of society: the poor, prostitutes, tax collectors, and finally thieves. Not exactly the kind of person to whom you would entrust your most precious and eternal possession: your stock portfolio.

Jesus revealed his anti-business agenda as soon as he threw the money-changers out of the temple. To the orthodox for whom taxation is government organized theft, Jesus' clear advocacy of paying taxes by "rendering unto Caesar" is a complete abomination. Scholars are still divided over whether the raising of Lazarus was to escape the death tax or an intent to pay it twice.

--------------------

Jesus mollycoddled the poor and went out of his way to condemn the rich. His warning that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a wealthy man to get into heaven was typical socialist blather. The affluent have had to devote themselves to breeding smaller camels and building larger needles ever since.

------------------
Jesus' purpose in life was to do the will of His heavenly Father. Wherever He went, He brought goodness. He never hurt or injured anyone, although He did get angry at others who did wrong. He called self-righteous church-going people vipers and once turned over tables in the temple where money-changers were taking advantage of the people.

Jesus was friends with the outcast of society—sinners. He reached out to the publicans, thieves, prostitutes. He never scorned anyone. He knew what was in the heart of a man (or woman). Just because they were religious did not mean that they knew God.

----------------------

Jesus challenged the Pharisees’ purity system by almost everything he did. It’s no coincidence that there are so many stories about Jesus getting into the everyday dirt and grit of life. Touching lepers, being touched by a hemorrhaging woman. Forgiving an adulteress. Going into an unclean graveyard to cast out demons and send them into a herd of unclean pigs. Eating with outcasts like tax collectors and prostitutes, and drunkards — all of those people at the very bottom of the Who’s Who of the Impure.

So Jesus came to confront the heart of this system — the temple — by driving out the money-changers and the sacrificial animal dealers; by exposing the profits and the kickbacks that the temple elite received “under the table” when he said that the temple authorities had turned his Father’s house into a “den of robbers,” as it’s recorded in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

----------------------

"Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments'" (Matthew 22:37-40, emphasis mine).

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another" (John 13:34-35).

The counterfeit Christ and his followers have long lists of "do's and don't's" that are preached as "Gospel." And everyone who doesn't subscribe to their legalistic list are condemned. We see them protesting with signs that read "God hates fags," "God hates baby-killers," and "God hates !"

But the genuine Jesus has just two laws: love God and love people. True followers of Jesus may not agree with the lifestyles and opinions of everyone (in fact, they shouldn't), but they will be the first to show compassion to those they disagree with. That's why Jesus hung out with drunks, prostitutes, "tax collectors," and "sinners." He loved people. He didn't love all their actions--and didn't join them in all their behaviors--but He showed them that he loved them. True followers of Jesus are not preaching against people with addictions; they are volunteering at rehabilitation programs at local shelters. They're not bombing abortion clinics; they're working in the pro-life Crisis Pregnancy Centers.

--------------------------

Jesus also had withering words for the wealthy who oppressed--or simply ignored --the poor.

"Blessed are you who are poor, for yours is the kingdom of God. But woe to you who are rich, for you have already received your comfort" (Luke 6:20, 24).

Genuine followers of Jesus have a sense of joy and satisfaction in who they are--at whatever "level" on the social or ecclesiastical ladder they may find themselves.

Jesus said, "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete" (John 15:11).

----------------------------

5. His earthly father was a carpenter, a humble hewer of wood with whom He lived and laboured, conforming to our human ways of life, custom, language and living that He might understand and love us better and communicate with us on the lowly level of our own limited human understanding!--He learned to LOVE Mankind. He saw their suffering and had great compassion on them, longing to not only heal their sick and broken bodies, but also to save their immortal spirits!

6. When the time came and He began his life's work, He went about everywhere doing good.--Helping people, loving children, healing heartaches, strengthening tired bodies, saving whom He could. He not PREACHED His message, but He LIVED it amongst us. He not only ministered to their spiritual needs, but He spent a great deal of time ministering to their physical and material needs, miraculously healing them when they were sick, feeding them when they were hungry and sharing His life and His Love!

7. He was so simple and His religion was so simple that He said you must become as a little CHILD to receive it! He didn't preach Temple worship, He didn't preach going to synagogue nor going to church, He didn't preach any complicated ceremonies or difficult rules.--All he did was preach LOVE and show Love, as He strove to lead God's children into the True Kingdom of God, whose only laws are to "love the Lord with all thy heart" and "love thy neighbour as thyself".

8. He had very little to do with the high-fallutin', rich-robed, churchy scribes, pharisees and hypocrites--the religious leaders of that day--except when they insisted on annoying Him with their critical questions. Then He would sock it to them, publicly exposing them as the "blind leaders of the blind" that they were, even telling them that they were like white-washed SEPULCHRES, which indeed appear beautiful, clean and holy on the OUTSIDE, but WITHIN are full of rottenness, corruption and stinking dead men's bones!

9. He was not a mere religious reformer, He was a REVOLUTIONARY! He refused to compromise with the false religious system, but rather worked totally OUTSIDE of it, reaching and sharing His Love with the poor and common folk who had long ago abandoned and been abandoned by organised religion. He never went into any bar with whip in hand, breaking up the bottles and throwing out the bartender. Nor did He ever enter any brothel, beating up the poor girls, overturning their beds and throwing the men out the window.--But He DID make a whip, go into their big beautiful religious Temple, overturn the tables, spill out the money and drive the money-mad money-changers out of the church, condemning them for turning what was supposed to be a house of prayer into a den of thieves!

10. He made Himself of no reputation, and was a companion of drunks and prostitutes, publicans and sinners, the outcasts and downtrodden of society. He even told them that they would enter the Kingdom of Heaven before the so-called "good" people, the self-righteous and religious leaders who re jected Him and His simple Message of Love. The power of His Love and of His appeal was so great and gave such great faith to the sincere truth-seekers that they didn't hesitate to drop everything they had and forsake all immediately to become His full-time followers!
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Evoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-05-06 03:04 PM
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48. Liberal Conervative left right......
Applying these concepts to a person who lived (or not) 2000 years ago is so ridiculous. I hate when people argue about this stuff. I find it difficult to label people liberal who exist in the present day, because of the differences in opinion of even people who label THEMSELVES liberal. Trying to label people as left or right before the concepts of left and right even existed is madness. What next? Was Nero a GOPer? Was Shakespeare a left winger?

Seriously people! Besides...Jesus is someone everyone is trying to claim belongs in their group. If he ever did exist, which he most probably did not, and was transported via Time Machine to present day America, he would probably look around, bewildered, and then run in the path of a speeding vehicle.

Splat. No more liberal or conservative Jesus.
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