I never do this, but here is an email conversation with a Freep friend:

[Scout1071]

Some of my facts are a little vague, but you get the point. Start here:

Subject: It's not too late
05/03/2006 09:26 AM


We will welcome you with open arms. I just wanted to give you advance warning that champagne corks will be popping when Rove's indictment is announced on Friday. Some Cinco de Mayo! If my sources are correct, the Grand Jury is meeting as I type this email. The press conference will be announced tomorrow and held on Friday.


The corrupt, incompetent and immoral nature of this regime is catching up to them. It's not too late. We are here for you. America can do better.


Just for giggles, please watch this:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/04/29.html


Subject: Re: It's not too late

Here's what I know:

1.) GW, not the most polished speaker ever

2.) GW has a less than glamerous background going back to his military days, or lack there of

3.) Didn't exactly have a great first 4 years from an economic/war stand point

4.) Your party, after years of searching, couldn't find one person that could defeat him in an election.

You can throw all the negative news you want at me but that still doesn't change the fact that your people can't find one competant candidate after years
of searching to beat GW. That's not a good sign. Have a good
one.


Subject: RE: It's not too late
05/03/2006 10:43 AM



56 of the 59 Iraq Vets that are running for Congressional office this fall are running as Democrats. Stunning statistic.

And no....we cannot beat electronic voting machines with no paper trail.
But that is a whole other story.

B - incompetence and corruption are destroying this great nation. See Hurricane Katrina response and Iraq for evidence. Oh yea, Osama still on the run as well.

There are alternatives. America can and will do better. I'm not trying to flame. Just want you to know we will welcome you with open arms.
They revealed the identity of a CIA agent working on weapons proliferation to Iran. Can you imagine if someone in the Clinton admin had revealed the identity of a classified agent working on something so important to our national security? Based on orders from the President?
I can only imagine the response. The highest of crimes.

Blessed are the peacemakers.

Peace out.



Subject: RE: It's not too late

Clinton,

You said it first. I wonder what Clinton was thinking during his presidency when he was informed that they knew exactly where Osama was and Clinton said the mission to take him out was a no go. Was Monica in the room and he was distracted at the time? Pre-emptive action will always be an easy target and create dissension. Clinton might not have been popular among the middle easterner's had he taken out Osama but by doing nothing we were left with the greatest terrorist attack ever on American soil. Lefty did nothing, righty left to clean up the mess of unintended consequences and all the while shouldering all the blame.

Katrina, the greatest of all failures was led by a local lefty. Mr. Mayor,
how about when your simulated disaster of one year ago revealed major problems you come up with a plan of action just in case the unthinkable happens? Oops, the unthinkable happened. Lefty did nothing, righty left to clean up the mess of unintended consequences and all the while shouldering the blame.

I'm seeing a trend

If your people don't understand how to use a voting machine then I only ask that they hold themselves accountable and practice before they vote again. No need to create a conspiracy to deflect incompetance, time to take ownership and fix the problem.

I do appreciate your open arms and will tell you that the reason our country works so well for the most part is that there is a Yen/Yang. There are days the left needs a little more right and vice/versa. Keep up the good work.


_________________



Let's see. Lying about a marital tryst versus lying about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. One caused a strained marriage and public humiliation. One caused the death of 2,400+ American soldiers and physically disabled 17,000+ American troops, not to mention the deaths of 100,000 Iraqi's who never once threatened the US. I worry not about how they will be ultimately judged by both history and their Maker. Not to mention lying about outing a CIA agent who was working on Iran - specifically on tracking nuclear weapons in Iran - and lying about it for the past 3 years. All because her husband was telling the truth about there being no WMD in Iraq. This is indefensible. George H.W. Bush called this the highest crime and treason. Just wait until Bush and Cheney are required to testify under oath. Think the special prosecutor thinks that Libby and Rove did this all on their own? No. According to the CIA's own report, exposing Valerie Plame significantly damaged our ability to track WMD in Iran - where the real threat was all along. By blowing her cover, it also blew the cover of Brewster Jennings, the CIA front company she worked for that was charged with tracking WMD. You simply cannot defend that type of treason. And all for their own personal and political gain. Endangered all of us so that their lies about WMD in Iraq wouldn't be further exposed.

Clinton messed up when he didn't get Osama. No doubt about it. But he is not responsible for this mess today. And don't forget that "we" had OBL cornered in Tora Bora and Bush chose to pick up our troops and send them to Iraq rather than finish the job. Well documented.

Massive failure and utter, criminal incompetence and greed. Who did Louisiana ultimately bring in to get things up and running when BushCo couldn't? James Lee Witt, former FEMA head under Clinton. You may remember him. He successfully coordinated the clean-up of all those "righty" counties in Florida destroyed by several hurricanes in the '90s....back when we actually had national security, the respect of the world and gas was only $1.15 a gallon? Ahhhh....the good old days. Shall I send you the GOP speeches where they railed against Clinton for letting gas prices get so out of hand? Or the 2000 debate when Bush scored big points by making fun of Gore's plan to increase hybrid car production? Geez, that Gore was so off base.

I have long given up on the "average" American. Hell, studies released this week show that 60% of Americans cannot even identify Louisiana on a map. I no longer expect them to understand any type of complex issues they should be voting on. That is why the GOP has been so successful. They utilize wedge issues like "gay" marriage so they don't have to actually explain themselves on the things that really matter. Destroy the US and the world, but at least those gays can't get married! Cause you know....we wouldn't want them to drag down that 70% divorce rate.

But you.....the intelligent voter......that I will never understand. Middles class Americans who vote Republican are like chickens who vote for Colonel Sanders. It makes no sense. Economically and socially, they do nothing but make our lives worse. And I think the response to Katrina shows just how dangerous they are with our national security. There is no security. None. The Gulf Coast still rots today. Is Haley Barbour from Mississippi a "Lefty" when he complains that the government has done nothing to help Mississippi? Hardly. Is Trent Lott a "Lefty" when he openly criticizes Bush because of Katrina? Not a chance.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writers/peter_king/05/02/mmqbte/index.html
Check out this read from Peter King at Sports Illustrated this week - he's hardly a "lefty" either -

The debate rages on my friend. You don't have to vote Democratic, but for God's sake - stop voting Republican! If you insist on voting Republican, than do the right thing by the Constitution and our laws - impeach Bush for high crimes and misdemeanors - and take back your party from this culture of corruption and incompetence.

Whew. Good times. Next time, let's do this over beer!

PS - We can pull the proverbial voting lever with the best of them. What we cannot overcome is Republican districts getting 4-5 times as many machines per district as Democratic districts with larger populations. We cannot overcome numbers "flip-flopping" in the night at a central computer server after it's goes offline for an hour - especially when the machines provide no paper trail. Diebold and ES&S make those voting machines - as they make every single ATM you've ever used in your life. Funny how they give you a receipt at the ATM, but can't seem to do that at the polls?

[NanceGreggs]

1. WOW!!!!

Well done, Scout!!!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[Scout1071]

3. Gracias Nance.

I usually don't engage them, but it just felt right today!

[NanceGreggs]

11. Well, I'm GLAD you did ...

... because you were really on a roll! Great smack-downs, one after the other!

[Mythsaje]

2. These people make me crazy...

You get more results by shouting down a well. At least the echo is comprehensible.

[Scout1071]

5. Yes, but their tone is changing. Even the most

ardent BushCo supporters are sounding weak in their support.

As usual, it just turns to a Clinton attack.

[Mythsaje]

10. Same as it ever was...

Back around the time of 9/11 I was posting on the about.com Civil Liberties boards... It was a regular Clinton hate-fest around there, 24/7. A lot of Libertarians and fiscally conservative Repugs, but fewer social conservatives (which made it a fairly decent place to post). After 9/11, however, when everyone jumped on the "love Bush" bandwagon, it became pretty bad. Then in the run-up to the Iraq War, when I was questioning everything the administration was saying, too many folks bought into it hook, line, and sinker.

I've gone back once since then, delivered a few stinging comments, and left again for good. These people may be coaxed into bashing Bush, but not because they think the right's policies are screwed up, but because they think he's an incompetent boob who's just doing everything wrong.

THAT'S what makes me nuts.

[NanceGreggs]

12. At least the ECHO is comprehensible.

GREAT line, Mythsaje!

[niyad]

4. a most excellent job--you have far more patience than I do for this sort

of thing.

[Scout1071]

22. Only some days.

Most of the time I just don't engage them anymore. It's too draining for me. I'd rather focus my energy on people I think may actually change their minds. People who don't blame all of Bush's fuck-ups on Clinton.

[deaniac21]

6. This is your friend? What kinds of communications do you have

with acquaintances?

[Scout1071]

14. Sure. I have some friends that we just agree to disagree

and we rarely speak of it. But I have cut out communication with a lot of those folks.

[deaniac21]

21. I hate arguing...

[rd_kent]

7. That cant be it, can it?

I mean, did you get a response from your last email? That was very well put and retorted everything in your friens previous email. Did he respond?

[Scout1071]

9. No response.

I'm not holding my breath. What can he do - kick and scream again about Clinton getting a blowjob?

[RedSpartan]

8. Outstanding!

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Scout1071]

13. Thank you RedSpartan. nt

[geniph]

15. My husband's actually been debating a bushbot recently

(don't ask me why, I don't think anyone needs the stress and frustration of dealing with people whose minds cannot be changed no matter what) and the bushbot came up with an all-time jaw-dropper:

Clinton's blowjob caused 9/11.

Yup, you read that right.

Islamic terrorists flew planes into buildings because the President of the United States had oral sex performed on him by an intern.

OOOO-kay.

THAT's what we're dealing with, folks. See, the "logic" is that the Islamic world was so incensed by Clinton's marital infidelity and practice of unnatural acts (they said it, not me) that the only logical response was to attack America under a different President.

We won't go into why they haven't attacked all the other countries led by men who've gotten blowjobs from women not their wife. I guess those countries don't matter because ... well, the blowjobs didn't become public property, as it were. No one in those countries really could give a tin shit whether the man in charge is getting a knob job or not. Only in America, folks, only in fucking America do the Puritans still reign with an iron fist.

Sigh. I wish I had been born in Australia. They were settled by convicts, we got the Puritans. I really think they got the better end of that deal.

[Scout1071]

16. If you read the OP, this freep says the same thing.

We didn't bomb OBL because Clinton was busy getting a blowjob.

Amazing.

[Patsy Stone]

25. I hope you'll point out that it wasn't Clinton

but the Republicans who screamed, "No War for Monica!" when Clinton wanted to really go after OBL. Remember? He was "wagging the dog"? :crazy: How soon they forget. I suppose they would have preferred him to use the "screw you, I'm doing it anyway" posturing of these lunatics currently in charge of the asylum.

Good work, Scout!

[Scout1071]

26. Excellent point Dah'ling.

Spot on.

[zeemike]

17. It reminds me so well of my own freeper "Friend"

That I have been conversing with sense about 1996 on the internet.
I suppose it has been in the thousands of exchanges that we have had over the years and the words are just the same.
I even predicted when bush was first selected that he would be a disaster and at the time he ridiculed it.
But lately he has remained silent sense I reminded him of my prediction except for some posts about how the economy is doing so well. (he is a stock trader so the stock market is his only frame of reference)
But they do know how bad there boy king has screwed up, but they are still in denial and will be until they find a face saving way out of it.

[Scout1071]

19. Bingo. Admitting BushCo is a failure is admitting their own failure

in judgement.

I truly believe that about 25% of these people will never abandon BushCo because doing so would admitting that their own personal judgement is horrible. Especially when they were so vitriolic about Clinton and towards Dems in general after BushCo was elected. The ultimate crow pie. Some people just will never eat it.

[CabalPowered]

34. Cognitive dissonance.

I'm surrounded by it unfortunately. Although I've shown the Colbert clip to a number of them and it seemed each time a light bulb went off. Like.. "hey, you know, this guy really has fucked things up"

[Minnesota Libra]

18. Scout1071, You did good!!! But it will be interesting what your friend...

.....tries to blame on Clinton next.:eyes: They never learn do they??:banghead: At least by spewing the party line all the time they don't have to think for themselves.:spank: How sad, gray matter that is just left to rot.:cry:

[Scout1071]

20. No. But their hatred of all things Clinton only proves to me

that Hillary will be poison in 2008.

Nothing against her personally, but it's still too hot to touch.

Al Gore and the Fighting Dems in 2008.

[juajen]

29. I believe more people support Hillary than you know

I had an argument with my anti-abortion conservative sister. It went like this.

she: Never, ever would I support Hillary for anything.

me: Please tell me exactly why this is? She has been a good Senator, she was a wonderful First Lady, a graduate of Wellesley and Yale, an exemplary mother, an excellent lawyer, etc., etc., etc.

she: After seconds of silence, she finally sputtered "her husband". "Bill Clinton" is what's wrong with Hillary.

me: Honestly, I was speechless.

she: Tell me, what do you think about Laura Bush running against her?

me: (I laughed) Wonderful! I don't think brilliant lawyer Hillary will have a problem defeating that little Texas Librarian. But, gosh, what do I know. Look who's President!

At this point we had both had enough. I will keep pounding her, though. She honestly had no idea why she did not like Hillary Clinton. We need to call every conservative we know on this. They have been given a picture of her that they know doesn't make sense.

[Scout1071]

33. You've actually made my point.

It's not that I have anything personally against Hillary. It's just that she represents something that for some reason evokes such anger from a huge part of population. Not just Republicans. I think we would be better off without her in this election. At least as a Presidential nominee.

Al Gore and the Fighting Dems have my support in 2008.

[juajen]

39. My sister has been brainwashed by Fox News

I told her to switch channels, but I don' think it's possible for her to change. My only hope is she will get so confused, that she'll stay home and not vote. Honestly, she is not dumb, and is fueled by the abortion issue.

I think that it's possible that Fox uses sublimation. There is no other explanation for my once smart sister to be so implacable. I say this because I know her so well, and know that she is not reasoning as she is capable of doing. In other years I know she would have admired Hillary Clinton; so, brainwashing and sublimation are the only explanations.

[EC]

23. And just what does he know about any of the Dem candidates?

What in his mind makes them lesser candidates to **? I really think some of the Republicans would have voted for Kerry if they really decided to do the research and find out about him - instead of just going by the Repubican talking points (poison darts)....

[Scout1071]

24. His response thus far -

"You'll have my response today. You've lobbed a few softballs."

Ha! I'm waiting patiently.

[Dernitt]

27. Typical

I have many of these feuds myself and I get that response alot. Don't expect a reply. Congrats on your major smackdown Scout1071!

:toast:

[Scout1071]

30. Oh boy. Here is the official response:

I don't have time or the passion that you do to answer in great detail but we
should cover a couple issues.

Paragraph 1: There are several thousand bodies buried in mass graves who were
gassed with chemical weapons that, were they alive, would disagree with your
argument about whether or not Saddam had WMD's or the capability to use them.
To say he doesn't have WMD's is to say Osama doesn't exist because we can't
find him. We have massive documentation that both exist but because we don't
know where either are is to assume neither ever really existed? And I again
point out that pre-emptive measures could have saved 2,400 soldiers, 17,000
disabled Americans (including Cindy's son) and 100,000 Iraqi troops. It never
should have come to that. ( Bill, CIA and FBI lack of comm. etc.)

Paragraph 2: Correct about both

Paragraph 3: Gas prices are just above where they should be if you account for
inflation. We historically have been blessed with low prices and the rest of
the world would call it a price break to pay $3.00/gallon. Between Hybrid cars
and the internet there isn't much Gore can't do, except defeat Bush. The
Katrina disaster starts and ends at the local level. There were supplies and
help ready and waiting immediately, why weren't they let into the city? I know,
it's somehow GW. The answer is not bigger govt., it's competent people at the
local level having a plan for a city that sits below sea level. I think the
pictures of the school busses in the parking lot under water tells the entire
story.

Paragraph 4: Nobody voted on gay marriage and nobody cares but the extremists
which exist on both sides. What people were more concerned with is John, "I'm
voting for the war but I'm against the war when in an election" Kerry. That
one issue, by itself, lost the election.

Paragraph 5: My absolute favorite. We live under the greatest blanket of
protection in the free world. We even have this thing called social security
so those that don't save for their future can live off the tax dollars of you
and I. I know it's running out of money and it should, we've created an
environment of dependance and it's unhealthy. (See Indian reservations for
further understanding) I believe in helping those who can't help themselves
and those who have been the victims of unfortunate circumstances but lets
promote fiscal responsibility at all levels while we're at it.

And yes, this conversation would go better with a drink in hand and I'm all for
it.




I'm tired. I'll get a little dinner and hit him back with a Shock and Awe response. Any help that DU'ers would like to provide to refute the above, thank you in advance!

[Pobeka]

31. Massive disasters and local aid are an impossibility.

If local disaster support is hit by the disaster, then you have no local support.

It is far cheaper to have a disaster organization that can be deployed to local
areas, rather than have every local community have to provide their own. On
the order of 1/48th the cost for the continental USA on a state by state basis,
but not quite that good because of deployment.

If you are concerned about keeping goverment small, and costs down, then a well
run national organization the is only way to go.

[Scout1071]

32. Excellent info! Do you have a link for any of it?

I'd love to provide it in the rebuttal.

[Pobeka]

35. No links, it's just the obvious conclusion if you think.

I think :-)

[Scout1071]

37. Oh, I agree.

Just wondering if you had specific budget estimates. Thanks!

:hi:

[CJCRANE]

36. "And I again

point out that pre-emptive measures could have saved 2,400 soldiers, 17,000
disabled Americans (including Cindy's son) and 100,000 Iraqi troops."

That doesn't make sense. The Iraq invasion was already a "pre-emptive war" - so your friend is saying a pre-emptive war could've prevented a pre-emptive war..? How many people would've died in the pre-pre-emptive war..?

[Scout1071]

38. He's saying that if Clinton had killed OBL it never would

have come to Bush's invasion of Iraq. Great point. I will remind him that OBL had nothing, nada, zip to do with Iraq.

[newyawker99]

40. Hi Dernitt!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ComerPerro]

28. the "Clinton let Osama go" lie has even been debunked

by the non-partisan, Bush-Appointed and Republican-chaired 9/11 Comission.

[trekbiker]

41. that was excellent..

I have a similar friendship with a freeper type. We've been friends for 20 years but these last few have been particularly tough, especially over beers at the local brewpub. I wish I could debate as effectively as you but I still manage to reduce him to the typical "buh, buh, but Clinton!!!" responses. A couple times we've even come close to blows. I can usually shut him up by pointing out the extreme irony of our respective financial conditions, that I hate Bush but have made a small fortune thanks to his tax and foreign policy blunders while my friend loves Bush but has nearly hit bottom and now, faced with personal bankruptcy is in a world of hurt thanks to the new bankruptcy laws. But I'm not one to walk away from friendships over politics. If I did I would'nt have many friends left as most are republican (the engineering profession is largely conservative unfortunately).