Avoiding Chaos: Three Tips for May 1 Protesters -->

[Dr. Jones]

Here are three tips for the May 1 protesters. Following these tips will result in peaceful protests. Not following these tips may lead to ill will, loss of the intended message, and chaos in the streets.

1) Don't wave the Mexican flag, wave the American flag just as you did during the last round of protests. This really did increase credibility and eased tensions.

2) Don't proclaim that you're doing the jobs Americans will not do. Americans increasingly do not buy this line of bull as they have seen their jobs that they WILL do and DO do on a daily basis being taken away from them and handed over to lower-paid illegals by greedy, unAmerican companies trying to save a buck. Nerves are raw - don't go there.

3) Focus on worker's rights, not a free flow of illegal immigration across a pourous and open southern border. Most Americans agree that something needs to be done to strengthen our borders and curtail the flow of illegals coming into our country. Most Americans also see that the flow of illegal immigration has substantially increased the cost of healthcare, social services, and education and has put tremendous strain on the municipalities in which illegals have taken up residence. We all pay the price for that!

Let's keep on message here, and not ruin your credibility by needlessly inciting your opposition.

[LoZoccolo]

1. I know what your detractors are going to say already.

"So you think that immigrants should just sit down and shut up and do what they're told."

[Dr. Jones]

2. Hmph. And my answer would be...

No, I'm simply laying out three simple suggestions that will ease tensions and increase their credibility.

[Warren Stupidity]

3. All non native americans ought to go back home immediately. nt.

[Dr. Jones]

4. That's a pretty hard line you're taking, Warren...

:silly:

But I know, you were just being sarcastic. Look, illegal immigration is a problem that needs to be fixed. It is a hotbutton issue that has everyone taking sides. Tempers are beginning to flare, and it's becoming quite an emotional issue. I simply think we need to discuss ways we can prevent it from getting out of hand. Hence the reason behind my OP.

We need understanding on both sides.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dr. Jones]

6. It's not xenophobia...just sayin'

It's a LOT more complex than simply waving a flag. That is just ONE of the issues I raised.

I think many Americans see Mexican flag-waving as a slap in the face to the country that allowed the illegals to enter in the first place. It's an affront, kind of like biting the hand that feeds you type of thing. It IS true that when they waved the American flag during the last round of protests, this eased tensions and raised their credibility.

Now if they fought for a permanent open southern border, that WOULD create ill will and possibly chaos in the streets. Most Americans agree that we cannot continue to have illegals strain our education system, our hospitals, our healthcare system, and our local and state economies. Most Americans agree that we need to start policing our southern border and curtail the amount of illegals entering this country.

And as far as jobs go, Americans have been doing construction work, factory work, agricultural work, janitorial work, and service work since the inception of this country and continue to do so to this day. Only they are being pushed out by asshole companies who are hiring these illegals and paying them much less than their American counterparts. The net result is that Americans are being pushed aside and passed over for these jobs due to increased competition from low-wage illegal workers. This also has the net effect of lowering wages across the board. People love to decry this message, but I think if THEY were the ones laid off and replaced with illegal workers they'd find out it's the DAMN TRUTH.

[kevinbgoode]

22. I think it's time you organize a May 1 native uprising

and demand that the illegal immigrants from the Mayflower go back to Holland and England.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. exactly.

Go home.

[Dr. Jones]

39. Me go home,

or the illegals go home? Seriously, just wondering. I think I know your position, but you haven't really come out and said it. I'm confused.

[Warren Stupidity]

41. If I state my position about you I get deleted.

So I will withhold comment.

Meanwhile, I sure hope to see your posts next march regarding the horror of Irish flag waving on saint paddy's day.

My former brother in law is quite serious about how all of us cowboys can just go home. He has a point.

[Dr. Jones]

43. You don't have to state your position about me,

but you are certainly free do discuss your views on this matter...what's stopping you?

As for your Irish flag comment, I already stated how you cannot compare the two because the dynamics are completely different. Again, you are focusing on just the flag issue when in reality there's a whole lot more to it than that.

[Dr. Jones]

37. That's a completely different situation!

You simply cannot make this comparison. Illegal immigrants from the Mayflower didn't come into this country and put a tremendous strain on local municipalities, schools, hospitals, healthcare centers, and the American middle class. Illegal immigrants from the Mayflower weren't the victims of massive ad campaigns, and they weren't told lies about how they are needed in America because the "lazy, wealthy Americans" simply don't want to do that kind of work.

I could go on ad infinitum, but suffice it to say your comparison is ridiculous.

[Warren Stupidity]

42. Yeah they were too busy for all that.

Too busy slaughtering the Wampanoag tribe, killing or enslaving the entire lot of them.

[Dr. Jones]

44. I don't doubt that, and I don't condone that!

But what does this have to do with the current state of illegal immigration to the U.S.? What does this have to do with the current dynamics of millions of illegals coming into our country, lowering salaries, taking American jobs, and overrunning schools, hospitals, and municipalities? I simply don't understand the comparison. Maybe you can explain it to me.

[Dr. Jones]

7. And what are they protesting for, anyway?

Thing is, the protesters don't seem to have a unified message. What are they protesting for? What exactly do they want changed?

At least the media has not been forthright about it. All the public has been told is that they are organizing for "immigration reform." What makes this protest any different?

The worst thing that can happen is that they don't make clear their aims and goals, and thus lose credibility.

NHCSL Calls for Solidarity of May 1 Immigration Demonstrations

Washington, DC--(HISPANIC PR WIRE)--April 28, 2006--Today, Assemblyman Felix Ortiz (NY), President of the National Hispanic Caucus of State Legislators (NHCSL), called on his fellow colleagues and legislators to join in solidarity to support the immigrant demonstrations on May 1.

Last month, several Hispanic state legislators participated in rally marches held in Phoenix, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, DC, New York and San Antonio, calling for immigration reform.

The National Hispanic Caucus of State Legislators (NHCSL) is a nonpartisan organization representing the interests of Hispanic state legislators from all states, commonwealths, and territories of the United States. NHCSL is a catalyst for joint action on issues of common concern to all segments of the Hispanic community. For more information visit http://www.nhcsl.com.

Source: http://www.hispanicprwire.com/news.php?l=in&id=6062&cha=11

[El Fuego]

8. That's what I want to know.

It seems like they are doing their cause more harm than good. It's having a galvanizing effect on people like myself. I used to have a tolerant, live and let live attitude about illegal immigration, but not anymore. When I saw a protest in my neighborhood where they were shouting "We DEMAND our rights!" they lost my sympathy forever. No one owes them anything. In fact, they are a drain on the resources of the community.

The tone of these protests is so arrogant and militaristic. It's turning most of the public off.

Has any previous group of immigrants, legal or not, assembled and made demands of the U.S.? It's what my Father always called the "Me Generation" mentality, and I think it must be the United States' biggest export.

[bluedog]

11. Jose Gutierraz: ........the HE WANTS MAN

**this is the message he put out:


IMMIGRATION IS A RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

was anyone listening to Jose Gutierraz on c-span today..
thats what he said.......he also said that illegals did nothing wrong by "breeching" the borders..(notice.they call it breeching)

he wants "open borders like europe.

he wants amensty for all

he wants the number of visas raised

they claims illegals have the power of ecomonics on their side(yea.right.they work for pennies a day)

he blames the right wing GOP party for the rage against illegals......well he hasn't listened to my fellow democrats .....who are pissed as hell...and are siding with the GOP party on this.....

he don't like the minutemen......I say more POWER to the minutemen..and I'll buy brick after brick every month to help them.....

he says all this...yet all along he knows..yea he knows ......these are "illegals"....no way is he going to get away with this........

[El Fuego]

17. More from Jose Gutierrez . . .

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas; “We have an aging
White America. They are not making babies. They are dying. The
explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in their
pants with fear. I love it.”

Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico, “The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot.”

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; “Go back to Boston! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die . . . Through love of having children, we are going to take over."

_________________________

I'm not a bigot, I have nothing against Mexico or Mexicans, but gosh, it just doesn't give me the warm fuzzies.

[Dr. Jones]

33. Yikes...is this philosophy widespread?

Seems at least from what this guy said, we're talking about an all-out cultural takeover, not a friendly assimilation. I hope this individual is the only one thinking this way, because if not, we've got a real problem on our hands...

[Dr. Jones]

38. I don't know who the hell that guy is,

but I simply hope he does not represent the majority of illegals out there. But it's his kind of attitude that would certainly cause an uprising, that's for damn sure. What nerve for a minority group to be so bold as to make these kinds of demands on the very country that took them in and gave them a better life! It's disgusting, and alarming.

As for the GOP position on this, I would say that whether people agree with the GOP or not, most Americans simply agree that SOMETHING needs to be done about this. We cannot have our country overrun with any group of illegals, no matter what they're race or skin color. Our economy simply could not sustain it!

And as more Americans see their jobs taken away from them in favor of lower-paid illegals who shouldn't be in this country anyway - and who CERTAINLY shouldn't have been hired by these totally unAmerican, greedy companies - more and more Americans will be taking the side of, "Let's do something about this, and let's do something about this NOW."

Fence vs. no fence - deportation vs. amnesty - English as main language vs. Spanish as co-language...most Americans are simply saying, "Look, we need to deal with this, and NOW. Let's figure out the best way to handle this immigration issue and what to do with the tens of thousands of immigrants who are in our country illegally."

[Dr. Jones]

34. I agree.

If their message was "freedom and fair treatment for all people," then OK. But if it's "We're here, we're doing the jobs Americans won't do (lie), and we demand an open southern border where we illegals have the God-given RIGHT to cross over into the U.S. illegally," there's gonna be BIG problems.

That's what I'm saying. I wish they would galvanize the message and be inclusive so that Americans could get behind their cause. Instead, they seem to be taking a "we-them" approach and biting the hand that feeds them. That is a HUGE mistake.

[Ms. Clio]

9. Because it won't just be "illegals" marching and boycotting

Many, perhaps most, now, due to the nasty rumours about roundups, of the marchers will be American citizens who are concerned about the impact of draconian immigration proposals on their FAMILIES.

It stuns me how many people here don't know, or willfully refuse to acknowledge, that simple fact. But let me know if you are the one who can start tearing "illegal" parents who have been here for ten or more years away from their U.S. citizen kids. Because you are a person I really don't give a flying fuck to "dialogue" with at all. (Speaking metaphorically here, and not directing that at you, Dr. Jones, personally at all).

[Dr. Jones]

10. Not just illegals, but ILLEGAL immigration is what the current debate

centers around, and we have to face that fact. There is no legal precedent for rounding up and deporting LEGAL immigrants. But what do we do with those who are in our country ILLEGALLY? What do we do about those who are in our country against the laws of our land, those who are hired by greedy companies at far lower wages, usurping American middle class jobs and lowering American salaries across the board? What do we do with these illegals, who are raising the cost of healthcare and overrunning schools and healthcare facilities? We all pay the price for illegal immigration, and most Americans agree that something needs to be done to fix it.

That is the subject of the current debate.

[Ms. Clio]

12. That may be the "point of the debate" to YOU

You asked why they were protesting, and I attempted to explain at least part of "their" point of the debate.

[Dr. Jones]

13. Would we be having this debate if we were just talking about

LEGAL immigration? I don't think so. I haven't created my own interpretation of the debate here, it is what it is. And it's ALL ABOUT illegals, what to do with them, and what to do to curtail future illegal immigration.

Any legislation that is enacted will mainly affect illegals, so if you are here legally you really have nothing to worry about and neither does anyone else. :)

[Ms. Clio]

14. I just told you that people who are here "legally"

do believe they have something to worry about.

Google the forced repatriations of the 1930s and "Operation Wetback," too.

[El Fuego]

15. Amnesty for those already here is a possibility

But going forward, we need to strictly enforce immigration laws. In the future, newly arriving illegals need to understand that if they have a kid, they will still be deported.

What you're saying is that they should be able to get away with breaking the law through emotional blackmail. If a U.S. citizen robs a bank, will they be spared from jail if they cry that they can't be torn from their kids? Doesn't work that way. Breaking the law is breaking the law.

[Ms. Clio]

16. Good luck with strict enforcement and all that

historically, that's just not how capitalism and population flows work.

[Dr. Jones]

18. You're wrong.

Capitalism is predicated on protecting its citizens, not on some kind of willy-nilly immigration policies where we accept illegals. Our capitalist society would crumble under the weight of such an onslaught of illegals. Hospitals, schools, local municipalities, states - all would simply go bankrupt! And we all pay the price for that.

This is why we have immigration laws on the books and, at least theoretically, limit the number of legal immigrants and enforce the laws on those who are in our country illegally.

[Ms. Clio]

19. "capitalism is predicated on protecting its citizens"

that doesn't even make sense.

ciao.

[Dr. Jones]

21. What doesn't make sense about it?

From a purely economic perspective, illegal immigration causes hardship on many of our cherished institutions. I mentioned healthcare, education, and social services as just three. Who's going to pay for illegals that don't have health insurance, and who have to put their illegal kids through school (which is paid by the state)? Not the illegals...it's you and me. We all pay the price. When our institutions are strained, and can no longer afford the onslaught of illegals, we ALL pay the price.

If something is not done about this, yes, our capitalism will crumble. This is why capitalism IS about protecting its own.

[Ms. Clio]

23. capitalism is an economic system

It does not have "citizens."

Nations have citizens. Democracies have citizens who vote; theoretically, at least.

And I am not so enamored of "our capitalism," thanks just the same. "Our capitalism" is what has brought us to this pretty pass.

[Dr. Jones]

36. Capitalism is an economic system in which

the middle class must be protected at the peril of the economic structure. Without a strong middle class, it's not capitalism anymore - it becomes an economic system where the wealthy rule and everyone else is poor.

With the immigration issue, the middle class is being trashed and pushed from all sides. Illegals are taking the jobs Americans will do and DO do on a daily basis because the damn companies have broken the laws of our land and hired them. So I just hope something can be done about this soon, because if it isn't, it could be the final death blow to our capitalist economy.

[El Fuego]

31. Yes, we should look to history for examples

European populations flowed into the new world in the interest of capitalism, vanquished the native Indian nations who were in the way, and eventually set up their own nation.

A great thing for the Europeans, but it would have sucked to be an Indian.

[Ms. Clio]

32. You should look to history for solutions

boycotts and labor unions and demonstrations and civil disobedience.

[Dr. Jones]

45. Yes, but the dynamics are completely different in this case.

History shows that American citizens, not illegals, were successful in boycotting and forming unions and engaging in civil disobedience. These American citizens were not overrunning schools, hospitals, healthcare facilities, municipalities, and putting tremendous economic pressure on state and local governments. These American citizens were not having the net effect of forcing down the wages of the American middle class by taking the jobs Americans do and worse, doing it for far lower wages (I do blame the companies, not blaming the illegals here).

Thus far I see so much idealism and not much in the way of dealing with the REALITIES of illegal immigration. This is why it is so difficult to even have a discussion on the matter.

Can anyone here put aside their emotions on this issue and focus on the reality on the ground? Maybe once we do that we can figure out how to approach this issue! And maybe we can prevent ugliness from erupting at the same time!

[Dr. Jones]

20. Very true, and very well said.

The law is the law, and why should we make an exception for people coming into our country illegally.

[TahitiNut]

28. It's deja vu all over again. That's what Simpson-Rodino was supposed to

... accomplish twenty years ago!

Further, this hardly is the first time Congress has addressed illegal immigration. Twenty years ago, after four years of pulling and hauling, Congress passed the Simpson-Rodino immigration reform law. Intended to stanch the hemorrhage of illegal immigrants taking low-paying jobs, Simpson-Rodino granted a one-year amnesty to illegals here for a minimum of four years and let them apply for legal status; it also imposed criminal penalties on businesses knowingly hiring illegals.

The message of 1986's Simpson-Rodino Act was: Amnesty for illegals here, but this means the end of illegal immigration; from here on out we mean business. The results? (a) Half-hearted prosecution of defiant businesses; (b) surrealistic tag along the 1,952-mile border from Tijuana to El Paso to Brownsville -- across the Sonoran Desert and throughout the Caribbean; and (c) a rising inflow of illegals and (yes) illegal drugs.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD%2FMGArticle%2FRTD_BasicArticle&%09s=1045855935007&c=MGArticle&cid=1137835080133&path=%21editorials%21oped

It should also be noted that, according to current immigration laws, a first offense is a misdemeanor and a second offense is a felony! All the furor over the "proposed" legislation that would make illegal immigration a felony is utter horseshit. It's already in the current law.

[Dr. Jones]

35. Wow, already current law and yet unenforced. Wonder why?

I'd surmise it's because of the corporate-friendly Bush administration. Bush ALWAYS sides with the companies over the public, every damn time. Therefore it would make perfect sense to me that this repug administration is turning a blind eye in order to provide companies a lower wage, non-unionizing workforce and higher profits.

[bunkerbuster1]

24. K & R'd. I can only hope they focus on working conditions

and a demand to be treated fairly.

This doesn't have to be a horrible conflict between working class American citizens and undocumented workers (and their families.) We could realize that we are ALL getting screwed by our pig-headed government, and recognize the power in numbers.

Or we could let FuxNews frame this and watch as the inevitable violence unfolds.

[Dr. Jones]

27. Well the problem is, you have one group

who are struggling to find jobs that another group has taken because that other group is paid far less by the damn greedy unAmerican companies that hired them. So yes, naturally there will be animosity between the two groups, regardless of whose fault it is (i.e., companies' fault vs. illegals' fault).

It angers American workers who see their own employment prospects being passed over for an entirely new group of non-citizens who are in this country illegally. To be fair, at the same time it would anger the HELL out of me to hear I'm getting laid off from my programming job and asked to train my Indian replacement.

So it's alot of negative, frustrating crap that's hitting the American middle class right now, but most certainly to see their jobs go to illegals instead of them, and then to be locked out of their lifetime careers, it's just too much and SOMETHING has to give.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

26. How Bout They Protest However They Want Too. I'm Sure They Can Figure It

out for themselves.

But if you want to join them in the streets you have my full support to do so in the way you outlined. :)

[Dr. Jones]

29. My OP was just three suggestions to a safe, peaceful, CREDIBLE protest.

That's all I'm sayin'.

During the first round of protests this year, we saw Mexican flag-waving and heard many illegals spout the lie that they're here to do the "jobs Americans won't do." I'm simply opening up a dialogue on these matters and making some simple suggestions that will keep the peace and ensure their credibility.

If we do see any mass violence or chaos (I certainly hope not), it will completely ruin their credibility FOR GOOD and they will lose their standing as more Americans agree we should round up these dangerous illegals and ship them back to Mexico (not advocating these attitudes and this deportation policy, but it's a predictable outcome should this thing get ugly).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

30. I Just Think It's Up To Them How They Do Or Don't Want To Protest, Or What

they do or don't think is effective.

I'm sure they appreciate your advice, I just have a feeling that they're going to protest in their own way, and probably aren't worried about whether or not it's the way you consider to be the most effective, is all.

[Dr. Jones]

40. If the illegals want to enhance their credibility and get Americans

on their side, they will at least consider the three suggestions outlined in my OP.

I personally thought better of them when I saw them flying the American flag rather than the Mexican flag. I found them more credible when they focused on worker's rights rather than spouting the Bush lie that they're doing "the jobs Americans will not do." I found them more credible when they called not for a totally open border for their fellow illegals to pour through, but for fair treatment of their fellow man and increased wages and worker protections.

Seriously, with this platform, Americans can much more effectively get behind their cause. Unless of course, they don't WANT Americans to get behind their cause.

We need understanding on both sides, and we really need to discuss this matter in a way that lends to a final agreement on how to approach this immigration issue.