"Lady" versus Feminist. Can one be both?

[efhmc]

It probably depends on your definition of what being a "lady" is. If it means being soft and demure and undemanding and acquiescence, then I am sure the answer is no. If however, you were taught that a lady is kind and respectful to all people and treats all humans as equals and deserving of good manners, then maybe you see no difference. Good manners are often seen as a weakness and not an attribute. I am interested in your thoughts on the subject, my friends?

[Finder]

1. Both, but...

the etymology is quite misogynist.

lady
M.E. lafdi, lavede, ladi, from O.E. hlæfdige "mistress of a household, wife of a lord," lit. "one who kneads bread," from hlaf "bread" (see loaf) + -dige "maid," related to dæge "maker of dough" (see dey (1); also compare lord). Not found outside Eng. except where borrowed from it. Sense of "woman of superior position in society" is c.1205; "woman whose manners and sensibilities befit her for high rank in society" is from 1861 (ladylike in this sense is from 1586). Meaning "woman as an object of chivalrous love" is from c.1374. Used commonly as an address to any woman since 1890s. Applied in O.E. to the Holy Virgin, hence many extended usages in plant names, etc., from gen. sing. hlæfdigan, which in M.E. merged with the nom., so that lady- often represents (Our) Lady's; e.g. ladybug (1699; cf. Ger. cognate Marienkäfer) which now is called ladybird beetle (1704) in Britain, through aversion to the word bug, which there has overtones of sodomy. Ladies' man first recorded 1784. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lady

That aside, I always took the term "Lady" to mean a well-mannered woman of high standing in the community as I did the term "Lord" designated to males of same.

[efhmc]

9. I think that the origin of almost all English words for women are

misogynistic, except for the word "girl" actually, which I understand originated to mean either male or female.

[all.of.me]

2. my idea of 'lady'

that word conjures up a woman who is very proper, abiding by the rules of society. ladies can not be feminists, in my opinion.

a woman who is, like you say, 'kind and respectful to all people and treats all humans as equals and deserving of good manners' is a woman. the word 'woman' conjures up something more solid and grounded in reality. a 'women' questions the rules of society and is not afraid to break them to live by her values.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

4. A lady abides by the rules of society, even though society is misogynistic

A 'lady' is the creation of a society built on male power that wishes to remain that way. Think about the very idea that "lady" conjures up. For me, I picture Victorian women in whalebone and long dresses. The very purpose of these restrictive clothes was to turn women into immobile objects. One was considered wealthy if one's wife wore clothes that were so fine (fine of the day being restrictive) that there was no question she could do little more than sit or sew (ie, she could not do work because she didn't need to).

Manners has nothing to do with it. Everyone should have manners. But having manners doesn't mean you remain with an inherently unequal system because you don't want to kick up a fuss.

[all.of.me]

14. right. the rules of patriarchal society, not 'realistic' rules

and right again that everyone should have manners, and everyone deserves to receive good manners.

[efhmc]

10. It's the word that is wrong, not the idea. As usual you hit the nail on

the head. Words have overwhelming power and those associated with women can be quite harmful and deceitful.

[all.of.me]

15. are there equivalent words for men?

and not gay men. there was a thread the other day about words like cocksucker, and how it could be offensive to a gay man.

but we get called all kinds of things, overtly and covertly, and i'm wondering if that is the case with men? i'm not being clear, because i'm not sure what i'm trying to say!

[efhmc]

18. You are a person who is understanding of

discrimination on both sides of the question. There are certainly words that discriminate against men but 99% of the time words that harm and hurt are about women. This I know is not news to you but because you are a feminist you are trying to give equal thought and weight to both sides of this issue.

[Finder]

3. "Lady Chatterly's Lover"

Anybody remember this book and the angst it caused?

[FizzFuzz]

5. every time I hear the word "lady", I flashback to the days of free samples

that arrive in your mail.

The little rectangular cardboard box, in pink with a small white flower print, and hyper-feminine script, announcing oh-so-tastefully:

For The Lady of the House

A study in marketing euphemism. If its so dirty and private that floral-scented curtains of secrecy must be drawn to camoflage the dirty smelly truth, then why are they doing mass mailings, and intruding into our homes?

So that is what always comes to mind when I hear the word, "lady".
I hate being called that.

[efhmc]

11. What a ghastly image that invokes. I must have missed that one.

[atommom]

6. The word "lady" has really bad associations for me.

I think of white gloves, coyness, and women deferring to the menfolk.

For kind, respectful, mature people of both sexes, I usually use the word class. Still not a perfect word, but I avoid the icky white-glove feeling that "lady" gives me.

[all.of.me]

16. yes, it's a creepy feeling, isn't it?

[marions ghost]

7. who wants to be a "lady"

these days? Unless you are Lady Di perhaps. Quaint usage these days, not particularly complimentary. Usually means somebody who defers to men.

We crossed the Rubicon sometime back in the sixties. After that, terms for women handed down through the centuries seem a bit...lame.
Our society certainly doesn't attain the gentility and politeness implied in the term "lady." No need to paint up a corpse.

[efhmc]

12. "Paint up a corpse'. Good one. Maybe we should just distinguish those

who treat all with kindness, respect and dignity as good people.

[geniph]

8. "Lady" to me, implies a sort of sexlessness

and brings to mind Alfred Hitchcock's old adage about the type of women he preferred to cast in his movies ("One who is a lady in public and a whore in the bedroom."). That kind of attitude always sets my teeth on edge - it implies that a woman who behaves in a different manner, one who is perhaps rowdy and boisterous, is not one to be respected. In order to be taken seriously, a woman has to behave in a very circumspect manner in public. I HATE that idea. Men can get away with a much broader variety of public styles. Observe male and female politicians to see what I mean. A female politician that was as outspoken as a Dean or (shudder) a Delay would be run out of town on a rail. She'd never be elected dogcatcher. That's stupid. That's what "lady" means to me - that a woman must behave in that socially constipated manner in public or have her ideas and contributions be utterly discounted. After all, what could a "tramp" or a "skank" or a "party girl" possibly have to contribute?

:mad:

[efhmc]

13. Well, I see what you are saying. There is something so artifical about

the whole thing. Treating others well should have absolutely nothing to do with ones sex or station in life or the amount of power one has over others. It should be about a deep desire to interact in a peaceful way that is repsectful to all those folks around you.

[Hello_Kitty]

22. All that and:

Don't forget the other side, the "whore in the bedroom" part. But to qualify, you are HIS whore. The lady/whore expectation enforces that you are chattel. You exist for the sole purpose of catering to a man. You are to behave well in public, so that he maintains his place of respect in the eyes of other men AND you are to satisfy all his sexual needs in private.

The concept sets my teeth on edge too.

[all.of.me]

17. i just had another thought about this

i have two girls, 11 & 15. i don't think i have EVER said to them, 'Act like a lady!' but now that i read this thread over, if i ever have occassion to use that phrase, i'm going to change it to 'Act like a woman!'

the indoctrination of our kids starts at a very young age!

[efhmc]

19. I was at a Calico Corners and I saw a mom with 2 daughters

and a son trying to work with one of the consultants while her children were working the room. They were not loud. They were just running around, not bothering others but enjoying themselves. This was a very suburban American looking group, well dressed, well groomed, etc. The mother quietly told the second child ( a girl) to stop running around and start acting like a young lady. The oldest child (a girl) was being very demure and quiet at this point and the youngest, a boy, was just being a kid. (Ages about 5, 7 and 10). I was so shocked to hear this very indoctrinated "young lady" ask her mother why she (her mom) was always telling her to act like a lady. I really wanted to cheer. Maybe I read too much into this but I am thinking this is the wave of the future, even in Texas, young girls asking their moms why they must act like "young ladies"?

[all.of.me]

20. that's a great story!

it made me laugh. nothing like a kid to point out your stupidity. trust me there! they are wonderful.

[geniph]

23. Better yet,

better than "act like a lady" or "act like a woman" - because, really, what does either one mean? - is just "behave yourself!"

;-)

[Eloriel]

21. From a 2nd Wave perspective (history)

Really, efhmc, the whole nub of the matter is embedded in your first sentence (and a good many of the other posts exemplified it):

It probably depends on your definition of what being a "lady" is.

That was precisely the rub that irked 2nd Wavers so much. "Lady" was a nebulous, poorly defined catch-all word that could be used against any woman -- as social manipulation -- if she dared to step outside of the perfectly, and narrowly, constructed acceptable "boundaries" as a woman in this society, which just happened, by WILD coincidence, to be a whole host of Catch-22s. And so we rejected the word and indeed the whole notion most heartily.

So, from that vantage point, I can't really answer your original question because I find the question inapplicable, if you know what I mean. There IS no widely accepted definition of "lady," which you yourself demonstrate, actually. So I would say: basically, I reject the word itself (tho I do admit to not feeling quite so rabid about it as I once upon a time would have).