Juggling gender rolls.

[ThomCat]

I am in an interesting situation I would like to share.

I'm losing the use of my hands and feet, I can't live alone any longer. So I advertised for a housemate to move into my spare room. I said that either I'd use the rent money to pay for a regular cleaning service, or I'd discount the rest if the roommate would like to do some of my share of the housework.

Without exception, every guy who applied wanted me to hire a housekeeper, not just for my share of the housework but for theirs too.

Without exception, the women who applied were willing to trade housework for a discount on rent.

I chose one of the women. Now we're negotiating what she's going to do for me, and I think she's surprised that I insist on doing what I'm still physically able to do. For example, I'm not going to ask her to clean the litter box. They're my cats, and as long as I can manage to take care of them I will. In the bathroom the only thing I can't clean in the tub, so that will be her responsibility but we'll alternate cleaning the rest. I refuse to be helpless and have someone else take care of me, so I want assistance rather than having someone just do it all for me.

It's a situation where I'm face to face with gender expectations on housework and roles in the home (though, mixed with issues of disability and dependence). If you're interested in hearing about it, I'll post more about this in the future.

Thom

Edit for spelling.

[bliss_eternal]

1. I'm so sorry, Thom...

...to hear that you are losing the use of your hands and feet. :hug:
I hope that you are able to find the right person to assist you.

[ThomCat]

3. I just posted that there were no comments

and somehow you snuck in here before I hit "post message." Oops. :)

I suppose I'm dealing with it pretty well. I've had a mobility imparement for 15 years now, and this isn't totally unexpected. The pain is harder to deal with than the loss of use. But the new meds are starting to help and I've regained some of that loss. I suppose it will fluctuate over time.

It's interesting. I already mentioned that only the women were interested in helping me. The two women who were the most flexible and accomodating are also feminists. What does that say, that the women who are most aware of women's general role as caregiver/housekeeper/domestic servant are the ones most interested in taking on that type of work to help me?

[bliss_eternal]

7. That IS interesting.

I apologize for the delay in my response, Thom. I think I was trying to post while they were updating the site. I experienced some weird glitches. :scared: So I left for a while. Hope this goes through now. :hi:

Anyway, to continue this observation is VERY interesting. I'm wondering what this says about women, men, gender roles and even feminists that they were the people you found to be most flexible in working with you. I'm going to have to give this much more thought, and post more as my thoughts develop.

One thing that comes to mind immediately is that the feminist women you met with, blew apart the negative stereotypes about us. They obviously were NOT man-haters. :P We aren't what we've been represented as. We are kind, compassionate, caring people... :)

[ThomCat]

10. "man haters."

Damn! Another myth blown to hell. :P

[bliss_eternal]

11. Somewhere in the world...

...rush just felt a smack upside his head. Feminazis my ass.

;)

[ThomCat]

2. Lots of views but no comments.

:shrug:

Maybe it's not so interesting unless you're here. Having lived alone, I find it interesting to see gender expectations coloring the situation now that I'm getting a roommate.

btw: we agreed upon what her rent will be. She suggested how many hours per week she thinks she'll put into this, we both checked out the market rate for cleaning services ($15/hour), and deducted that from the rent.

Edit: 1 comment posted while I was writing this. :)

[noamnety]

6. Sorry for the noncommenting.

Sometimes reactions in my head don't translate all that well into words. Doesn't mean I'm not thinking about the post; it just means thoughts haven't gotten all organized.

Awareness of gender roles doesn't mean we as women are opposed to housework (myself excluded, I'm lazy and apathetic in that regard, but not for political reasons). It just means we have a problem with men who feel such work is beneath them.

Statistically, men are probably more used to having someone do all that for them, and they are probably more likely to be able to afford it, so it probably feels "natural" (snark) to get some woman to do it for them. Statistically (again), feminists probably haven't had that luxury.

I wish everyone had a chance to live and work with men who jump roles without regard to prestige. It's refreshing to be in a community where the organizer/leader can switch from speaking at a press conference to scrubbing pots and pans or toilets, sending a clear message that it's all work that's got to get done, and no one part of it is more noble than the next.

I had a switch in my own viewpoint about that a couple years ago, after being mistaken for "the lunch lady." I had to confront a little arrogant part of myself that I didn't realize existed in quite the way that it did. I spent so much time before that dealing with assumptions because I was female that I was "just" the secretary. It's a weird balance, to make it clear that people shouldn't assume because you're female that you are "lower" than them on the totem pole, and at the same time be able to grasp in your gut that there is no "lower" - it's all just people of equal worth.

(See, this is why I didn't post, I'm all jumbled and incoherent.)

[ThomCat]

9. I have never, ever seen you post anything incoherent.

:)

You're right. I didn't think anyone would be against doing housework (doesn't everyone have household chores they do?), but I didn't want to come across as "entitled" to having anyone do it for me. It was something I thought about during the interviews. I have lived alone for a while now so I was used to doing it myself. It was a small wake-up call when the guys who interviewed seemed to be unfamiliar with housework or unwilling to do it.

Living alone, I assumed that other people live the way I choose to live. :P

The woman who is moving in is doing medical research, working on her Master's/PhD. I'll bet she's smarter than I am, and she's definitely going to be more educated than I am very soon. I wonder what people are going to think when they find out that she does housework for me. Are they going to overlook how smart/professional she is and think it's normal that she does housework for me? I'm going to be paying attention to see how people react and what assumptions they make.

Her name's Holly (I don't want to keep referring to her in the generic). I'm wondering what her perspective will be. Once she moves in I'm sure we'll discuss it.

[Morgana LaFey]

30. Why would anyone need to find out?

I have more to post about this but it's very late (way past my bedtime) so I'll come back tomorrow.

On this subject, I can understand some people will end up finding out casually or incidentally, but is there some need to TELL people? I wouldn't think so, but perhaps I'm overlooking something.

I'm terribly sorry about your physical situation, Thom. Are you willing to share the details of what's causing this problem for you? If not, I certainly understand. Just know I send my best thoughts for every good thing for you. You are one of my favorites too. In fact, I can't think of a male DUer I like and admire even as much as, let alone more than, you.

:hug:

[ThomCat]

31. Hi, Morgana LeFey!

:hi:

Thank you. :hug:

I certainly wouldn't go out and tell people that someone else cleans up after me. I know it's necessary at this point but it's still something I feel guilty about. Only my friends and people here at DU know about this arrangement.

I don't mind sharing details, but I'll do that in a PM. :)

[ismnotwasm]

4. Ok

(I've been taking a DU break, but I HAVE to respond to you, since you're one of my favorites!)

My husband has secondary-progressive multiple sclerosis. This means he has a progressive disease that may well leave him bed bound, incontinent, unable to perform the simplest task for himself. He has chronic pain, short and long term memory loss, horrible, debilitating fatigue, and has to take toxic medications to keep the disease at bay. And thats the short story.

Mentally, one of the things that fucks him up the most is is inability to work, to to "manly" tasks. (And I blame the fucking patriarchy) In his mind, much of his worth, his value is tied up in his ability to be a socially constructed "man". Over time, we've divided up tasks as best as we're able. What he's able to do, is some of the housekeeping and cooking. He can even mow the lawn sometimes--he's so proud of himself when he does it, although it wipes him out for days. He does our finances. Sometimes he screws them up. I deal with it. He can still drive, and takes me where ever I need to go. I could go on, but you get the general idea.

Coming to the point where he can accept what he CAN do rather that what he believes he SHOULD do is an ongoing problem, we work constantly on it.

I post this perhaps because I need to, but also to let you know that in my world gender roles SUCK in many cases and cause hurt and damage that is unnecessary.

You didn't ask for advice, but if you want advice I would tell you if you ever did decide on a male care-giver/roommate-- find one who doesn't give a shit about doing dishes or vacuuming.

And yes, I'm interested, in your situation. In a way I relate. Between my husband and I, gender roles are in constant flux. The relationship is of course more intimate than one with a caregiver or a roommate, but the issues are there.

[ThomCat]

5. I think I'm going to bookmark your post

and re-read it occasionally. :)

That need to be able to do things is definitely here with me. I'm not quite as concerned about WHAT I can do, as long as I can do something, but I'm definitely stubborn and stoic about carrying my weight. I do internalize that gender role.

[bliss_eternal]

8. ismnotwasm...

...I hope Thom can forgive me for using his thread to go off topic just a bit.
I totally understand the need for a DU break. Been there, done that.

Please know that you are missed.

I hope that you will return as soon as you are able.
I miss your posts--your wisdom and presence here is valuable (to me).

...and I'm very sorry to read of your husband's illness, and all that entails
for both of you.

best always,

:hug:
bliss

[ismnotwasm]

17. I take short breaks!

Usually when a particular topic--in this case Falwell-- is on my last nerve. I don't "ignore" or "hide" stuff, because I'm not "on" enough I guess.

Anyway, this thread brought to mind One of the Hypatia (Journal of Feminist Philosophy) essays (The journal was focused on Heterosexism) The essay was --Snow White and the Seven "Dwarfs"--Queercripped; by Santiago Solis

The essay is introduced as follows
"In this essay, Solis contemplates how queercrip--both homosexual and disabled--readings of four editions of "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" might be used to destabilize "normative sexual identities. His goal is to argue against secrecy and for disclosure; thus, a main question guides the analysis: How might we (for example, parents, teachers, counselors) use picture books to reevaluate human sexuality in all in varied manifestations to avoid condemning to the closet all those who do not approximate a prescribed "norm"?

I admit, I had to read the whole essay three times. Here is a gem, though, from one of analysis of the Snow white;

"Charles Santore's Snow White

To be allowed to remain in the dwarfs' house, Snow White must cook, clean, wash, sew, knit, and take care of the dwarfs. In this particular situation, even though the dwarfs are desexualized they are not portrayed as disabled, but as heterosexual men who expect the women to look after them in exchange for protection. In that connection, the dwarfs attempt to control Snow White by instructing her not to open the door to strangers. As men, they are depicted as rational and knowledgeable, while Snow White is punished for not honoring the men's wisdom. As a result of her failure to do as she is told, Snow White lies comatose, thereby showing that disobeying men has severe ramifications. But, ultimately, because the dwarfs are not complete men, they are unable to save Snow White. A true man, the Prince, is needed to save her--but only after the dwarfs and the Prince negotiate a price for her body, as if she were a commodity. In the end, the Prince's rescue implies that only a heterosexual and able-bodied man's love can save Snow White, after which she marries the Prince in a white gown, signifying he innocence, virginity, loyalty and compliance"

Whew. And it's a long essay.

I can't get on to my Indiana Press account for some reason or I'd try to link to it.


Thank you for your kind words by the way, I'm in a poetic frame of mind, and perhaps Thomcat and others can relate to this one--one of my very favorites. I use it a lot when dealing with my husband or any overwhelming situation

My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends--
It gives a lovely light

Edna St. Vincent Millay

[ThomCat]

18. "My candle burns at both ends;"

That is very appropriate, and I'm sure many of us can relate to that. :)

I've been taking breaks from DU too, but mostly because I have spells where I can't easily type. That, hopefully, is passing. I'd like to lurk less and post more.

[mzteris]

12. the other part of this

*may* be that women make less $$ than men generally and so are willing to trade their labor for reduced rent.

Also, personally, I'd be asking for the housekeeping. It triggers my allergies, and it's not high on my list of priorities. :P

BTW - I'm so sorry you're having to go through all this. :hug: You're one of my favorite posters, you know.

[noamnety]

13. Something about the way you phrased that

"willing to trade their labor for reduced rent"

made me think that maybe we're so used to doing that sort of labor for free in a mixed-gender relationship that it's nice to have a guy recognize that there is a value to that labor, and it deserves compensation.

It strikes me now that for a lot of women, it's probably an unusual occurrence to talk to a potential male roommate who speaks with concern about his ability to do "my share of the housework."

[mzteris]

14. true, very true

****a potential male roommate who speaks with concern about his ability to do "my share of the housework." ****

Housework is generally considered wimmen's work, doncha know. :(

[ThomCat]

16. Wow. That makes me sound like a bit of a freak.

A good kind of freak (and it's flattering the way you put it), but still a freak none-the-less. :P

[ThomCat]

15. Thank you.

Most of my favorite people at DU are here in the feminism forum, including all four people on this thread. We definitely have a mutual admiration group going. :hug:

[politicat]

19. Just stumbled on this thread...

And I do have something to add.

What an amazingly classical economics experiment! Two incentives - higher rent and less work or lower rent and more work - and a cross section of the population.

(While I'd be in the hire help category, that has nothing to do with my XX status... it has to do with the fact that I know my limitations...)

I'm wondering however, if the men you interviewed weren't, at least on some level, reluctant to take on cleaning not because they felt they wouldn't be able to handle it, but to prevent any feelings of dependency from arising. Since women are more accepting of another's dependency, it's less surprising that they would be able to accept it.

The surprise you may be running up against is not an expectation of you as XY willing to clean, but you being willing to admit, accept and move on from the level of dependency that your condition engenders, in contrast to the social expectations surrounding dependency.

(Sorry for the tardy response... DU's low on my list of tolerances right now.)

[ThomCat]

20. Good points.

This is why I scoff at people who say that social scientists aren't real scientists. Social Scientists have to dance with the variables, because you can't create an ideal experiment that removes all but one variable.

There are definite issues of disability/dependence going on here. I'm finding that I'm much more stubborn about those issues than I am with gender issues. My identity is much more tied up in being capable than in being stereotypically male. (though, of course the two are related)

[cally]

21. I just saw this post

and I apologize for my delay in responding.

I had no idea you are facing such hardships. I respect you greatly and it doesn't seem fair that such a smart, caring person faces the pain and mobility issues you do.

I just think we all do what we are comfortable with. I think women have more experience, in general, with caretaking. We are taught from a very young age. Slowly, this is changing and more of us are comfortable stepping away from traditional gender roles.

[ThomCat]

22. Hi, Cally.

No need to apologize. I was hoping for a few comments and I was a bit concerned that I had said something wrong when lots of people were looking but nobody was saying anything. Concern made me impatient to know what people thought. :)

I think you are right about the comfort level. Holly, my new roommate, is insisting that she wants to be fully responsible for the housework. The value of a full time housekeeper is equal to her half of the rent so she will live here rent free. She's more comfortable doing that instead of having to juggle who is going to do what, especially if my ability to do stuff is going to change periodically.

So, I'm now in the typical guy situation where she's going to do all the housework and I'll occassionally "help" when I feel that I can and I want to. She going to contribute housework, and I'm going to be paying the bills.

It's going to feel very weird. We came to a very traditional arrangement by a very untraditional route. :P

[spooky3]

23. ThomCat, thanks for sharing this story.

I am sorry you were put in this position and hope that your health stabilizes and that your roommate is a good person and you get along well.

on edit--I agree with Mzteris about the earnings factor possibility.

Thank you for all of your lovely posts at DU. I really appreciate also your entering the fray sometimes when people are making bigoted statements, even though that can be a stressful enterprise. Someday it may not be necessary, at least not at DU. Someday.

[ThomCat]

24. Thank you for being supportive.

:pals:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

25. well another thing is men have more money in society.

if i had more money i too would rather pay more rent and have someone else do the icky work.

i think this is an issue of economics too.

:hi:

[ThomCat]

26. That is true,

but several of the men who interviewed were pretty close to destitute. Several college students without family support and one guy who currently lives in a boarding house. Yet even they wanted to pay rent and have me bring in a housekeeper. I think economics had little or no influence over the men's decisions, but may have influenced the women.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

27. now that is really interesting.

[Morgana LaFey]

32. That's VERY revealing -- and, in fact, helps me understand the

OTHER half of the equation.

It's very clear: housework is women's work to these men and in this situation they don't want to be seen as the "woman" in the relationship, even tho the relationship is really only roommates.

You know as well as I do that homophobia is all about sexism; that there would BE no homophobia were it not for the fact that women are so despised. If women were not despised, it would be no big deal for men to love other men and sometimes be effeminate or for women to eschew men (and what has been and sometimes still is the bondage of marital relationships) in favor of other women. But being or being seen as "feminized" is about the worst thing that can happen to a man, isn't it? Upholding those macho images is one of THE most critical things a man must do (some men, anyway).

At the same time the women, as has already been pointed out, are much more used to being cast in caregiver roles, and certainly not usually as unfamiliar with domestic tasks as many (most?) men are. Here's what I wanted to say when I posted in a hurry the other day:

It seems to me that the women you've been seeing in this regard are much more in touch with their equality in this society, and not as "afraid" of donning caregiver/domestic roles as we might once have been. I know there was a time when I'd have been greatly insulted by the mere mention of a housekeeping swap -- and regard it too like having the boss ask any subordinate female to get him some coffee, or a colleague at a meeting suggesting *I* be the one to take the minutes. But despite the rollback of women's rights, I think most of us pretty much understand that doing a little housework -- especially in an economic trade of this type -- doesn't strip us of our hard won equality.

Let's be clear about something I think is important here: these are what I like to call Life Maintenanc Tasks (tho that's not original with me). They're things EVERYONE must do, or have done, or live in filth, disorder and chaos. Therefore, whenever more than one person lives together, the Life Maintenance Tasks must be negotiated between or among them for getting done. You can be sure when I was getting married the 2nd time, I was definitely negotiating on the LFT's we were each going to handle. And I presented it in just that way: "We've each been taking care of our own laundry, and we can each continue to do just that" and we have. Big smile. It's worked very well, for the most part, tho there had to be a little re-education when his retirement happened -- wouldn't call it "negotiation" exactly. ;-)

[mrreowwr_kittty]

28. Hey Thom!

Sorry for being so tardy in my response to this. I just want to salute you for dedicating yourself to being a thoughtful and conscientious human being, despite your challenges. You really GET IT in a way that few people, male or female, ever do. :yourock:

You remind me of my late stepmother, who was an amazing woman. She was diagnosed with MS in the late '70s, and got cancer a few years later. After going through treatment for lymphoma and going into remission for 5 years, it came back as leukemia and she refused treatment. She died in 1988. She was the coolest person I ever knew. She wasn't "brave" or "resilient" or any crap like that. She told it like it was. MS sucks and cancer sucks. She introduced me to feminism and righteous anger. I still miss her, every single day.

I hope your new roomie works out and that she realizes what a treasure you are.

(Personally, I think I would have gone for the professional housekeeper because I'm a lazy fuck and I hate cleaning but I'm not surprised by your account of how that played out along gender lines.)

[ThomCat]

29. Hi, thecatburgler!

Thank you very much.

I hope we get along well. I'm a bit anxious about having a stranger moving into my home. But at the same time I'm going to do my best to make sure she feels comfortable living here because it's going to be her home too. Hopefully we'll work this out smoothly. :)

:hug: