The division of women...Any thoughts on this?

[bliss_eternal]

I've been reading a lot about midwifery, and the fights for women regarding the choice to birth at home, or in hospitals with the assistance of midwives, instead of with doctors.

It seems that some women are more concerned with this right, than the right of whether to conceive or not, and this concerns me. Why wouldn't the homebirth community support a woman's right to choose across the line? From whether to conceive, whether to continue an un-planned pregnancy or the ability to obtain women's healthcare from a midwife?

I'm not suggesting that the entire community doesn't support choice. I honestly don't know that they do, or don't. But they seem to be more concerned with the rights of women that are married, or having children, as opposed to the rights of women. Period.

I don't like the division of women between those that are married and those that are single--and seeking rights. They are still WOMEN'S rights. Whether it be choice, or the desire to have a homebirth, is it not a right that is being denied to women, by the medical establishment, govt., and men?

I don't understand why we all aren't more supportive of one another regarding these issues, as opposed to denying our sisters rights, based on personal beliefs, religion, etc.

Can anyone clear this up for me? I'm really confused as to why this IS a dividing factor and not a unifying one...

[Hello_Kitty]

1. I'm single and childless by choice

I certainly support the right of any woman to give birth in the environment she wishes but to be honest, it's not something I've really given a lot of thought to because it doesn't impact me, though maybe I should since it is part of the whole spectrum of choice as you point out. That may explain the indifference to the issue of all reproductive choice on the part of the women in the homebirth community, but I don't know.

I agree with you about the schism between married and single women. I think it's manufactured to divide and conquer us, just like that between younger and older women. Backlash propaganda abounds these days and it can cause women who should be natural allies to fear and resent each other. If you're married and a mother, you are rewarded with some social acceptance but are also portrayed as a frumpy, sexless scold. If you are single and childless, you get more freedom to pursue career goals or personal pleasure but that comes with dire warnings about squandering your fertility and being considered unworthy of marriage. Then there are the various consequences, social and otherwise, that befall the single mother and the married childless woman. Whatever you are, you can't win and you must always fear the Other Woman, who threatens your resources.

[bliss_eternal]

4. I'm married and childless by choice

at least right now I am. But I won't forget my struggles as a single, childless woman--it saddens me that so many do. :(

I totally agree with you about the divisions between married women and single women. I would go a step further and say it also impacts those of us that are married, but have no kids.

I feel like some sort of societal freak sometimes. Frequently because I'm not so easily boxed or categorized--it's frustrating. I don't fit some ideal--wife, mother, helpmate, career woman, etc.

I don't like the way some women treat women that don't have kids. Deep down, I know that no one that truly feels good about themselves has to use a woman's choices to somehow dismiss her as somehow 'less than'. But it bugs me, either way.

I've watched it happen to others, and it's happened to me. The women that feel it's ok to talk down to me because I'm not a mother, or expect I would have no concern of issues surrounding maternity care (in many instances, I'm more aware of the issues than they are), or why should I care about abortion--if I were pregnant, of course I could have a child, I'm married. :wtf: As if married women shouldn't be concerned about birth control, or they may not ever consider an abortion.

I don't understand women that just abandon other women and OUR issues because they get a MRS. in front of their name, and expect someone like me to do the same.

Sorry for the length. I'm thinking too much--and this is all bothering me too much. Thanks for responding and sharing your thoughts on this.

:hi:

[Hello_Kitty]

5. Your post reminds me of a doctor visit several years ago

I was 24 and in the Navy. I was discussing my contraception options with my doctor. Being a bit leery of hormonal methods I suggested that I'd like to try a diaphragm. The doctor was adamant about my not using that method. She said it was too unreliable because it was dependent upon me remembering to insert it correctly. She went on to say that if I were married she'd be more inclined to give me one, since an unintended pregnancy "wouldn't be as much of a problem", or something like that. I accepted it then and went on depo-provera shots.

Looking back, I realize that her position was insulting on 2 levels. First, there was the underlying implication that a single woman couldn't be trusted to be responsible enough to use a diaphragm, and second that married women should automatically be able and willing to accomodate an unplanned pregnancy.

[bliss_eternal]

6. Yes--EXACTLY!! That was insulting...

I'm so sorry that you went through that.

Not long after marriage, acquaintances of mine and friends of dh's seemed to start the campaign of 'so when are you guys going to have kids?' It was infuriating! As a single woman, it's when are you going to get married. Then you get married and everyone is trying to fill up your womb! :wtf:

Thanks for the reminder, btw. My ob is so fired! This Pap she didn't bother to even ask me about birth control and whether I wanted or needed something other than what I had. Don't know if this was based on being married or not, but I don't like health care providers glossing over things. She's history...LOL!

[EmmaP]

14. Childfree

I'm single (in a committed relationship) and childfree for life. I prefer the term "childfree" because "childless" has a lacking connotation to me and is used more by those who have infertility issues, whereas childfree is a more positive term and has more a sense that it's a choice.

And yes, I get nagged all the time about getting married. If/when we decide to take that step, I fully anticipate I'll get nagged about getting pregnant. And I have no qualms about telling everyone that it won't be happening. Period. End of story.

I've only met one midwife and she was very pro-choice.

[bloom]

2. "Why wouldn't the homebirth community support..."

It sounds like their mission involves births. So it does follow that they would be concerned with women who are having children. (It doesn't seem like marriage would/should be a factor).

Isn't this a bit like people - some of whom wanted the anti-war demonstration to be only about the war and some wanting it to be about a lot of other issues? Some people focus on one thing - some people focus on multiple things. (When other (non specifically Iraq-war) issues are brought in that everyone doesn't support - some people get freaked out). I could see connections of multiple issues - but not everyone does.

I can see where you think that it follows that both issues follow from government, etc. infringement of rights of women. Not everyone will see that as the most important thing - even if it is the main thing impacting what they want to do.

[bliss_eternal]

3. I see what you're saying...

and honestly, I've encountered women (mostly in Canada, overseas, New Mexico, and some other areas here) that support ALL women's choices. They are midwives and women's healthcare providers that are pro-choice--ALL of women's choices. That's encouraging.

It seems that there are some christian fundie types that are bleeding into the women's issues world, through the homebirth arena. They of course, only want to support choices that affect THEM, their children, their families--which would be the ability to be cared for by a midwife, preferably Christian fundie midwife, but you know what I mean.

[ismnotwasm]

7. Maybe because it's more about birth

There is a book called "Woman as Healer" and I CANNOT remember who wrote it, darn it. But among other things it traces the history of midwifery from an honored profession to what amounted to a degraded back alley procedure. The book also talks about the "masculazation of medicine" Perhaps, since midwifery is still trying to regain it's status, they concentrate on being a viable, valuable option as opposed to your typical hospital birth. In other words, keeping a more single purpose to retain hard won status. Any thoughts?

[MountainLaurel]

8. It's by Barbara Ehrenreich

Yes, THAT Barbara Ehrenreich, who wrote "Nickel and Dimed." She started out her career as a medical reporter, and her first books were about medical issues such as the influence of pharmaceuticals. The full title of the book is "Witches, Midwives, and Nurses: A History of Women Healers."

Personally, all of the homebirth advocates I know are STRONGLY pro-choice.

[ismnotwasm]

9. Thanks--I had given it away, and have regretted it ever since

I want to reread it. I'm a nurse and have no desire to be a doctor. But the way she traced medical history how the fundamental right to be a healer was taken away from women was awesome.

Midwifery in particular had a heinous history as far as male dominance and control. I remember her outlining how the nursing profession developed as an "acceptable" career for women-- the whole "doctor's handmaiden" role. Despite women on the battle fields in the middle of slaughter, tending the dying and injured. Women from the beginning have taken nursing much farther, and I believe the male/female doctor ratio is now 50/50 or close to it. But it's a great read. And the phrase masculination of medicine holds true for much is wrong with the medical community today. (In my opinion)

I work on a translant unit, so have little to do with labor and delivery, but most L & D nurses, as well as any midwifes or Doula's I've met have been pro-choice.

[bliss_eternal]

10. Yay! I'm happy to hear this!

I was on a midwifery internet board, reading the archives (i've had a long time interest in midwifery, women's reproductive healthcare, etc.). Anyway, I found some disturbing posts from women that stated they were interested in midwifery, but wanted to study in CHRISTIAN midwifery programs. (?????)

Anyway, this person DID NOT get many positive responses.

As I read more from this person, and the few others that responded to her from a 'christian perspective' these women expressed views that suggested they were anti-choice (one was a nurse that said she refused to attend women that were aborting. She was glad she now works in a Catholic hospital and doesn't have that problem)... :wow:

It just struck me as odd to see these women go on about being there for women, yet they had personal views that seem to go against women's choices--even though I realize they wanted to focus more on birth choice. I just see it as all in the same--but probably shouldn't.

Thank you for the book recommendation. I will try to find it. I had this kick ass class in college--medical anthropology. We had a male teacher who was incredibly progressive, and he shared quite a bit with us about the history of midwifery and how the birth process was once centered on women--attended by women, their mothers, sisters, aunts, etc. And was taken away by men. Really pissed me off, and opened my eyes!!

Sorry for the length of this-- I get a bit passionate about this stuff. :hi:

What's the demand like for midwives and nurse midwives where you are, ismnotwasm? Down here, I think women would like to see them, but there aren't many at all. I've heard many have had problems getting hospital back ups from md's. :eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

11. I'm up in Seattle

But like I said it's not my area of expertise. But I've met nurses who are passionate about being midwives. In nursing school it was covered very well. It can be difficult to get into midwifery school from what I understand, but I believe using midwives up here is fairly common.
I remember that particular rotation (L and D) covering different birthing methods, including showing this gorgeous movie that centered on women birthing in some warm springs in the Baltic sea. (Of all places) the newborns had a natural swimming reflex,and the placenta was not removed right away-It's difficult to explain but visually mind-blowing.

Also there is the classic "Triad" of birth. Often in ancient art it is three women, (but these days of course the fathers can take part)You probably already know about it, but it goes something like this, you have one support person, maybe what we would call today the Doula, behind the birth mother, providing support and encouragement. The position these days depends on which way the mother chooses to give birth, but in the old pictures she is often laying partly reclined or sometimes standing, depending where she is in labor. Sometimes a birthing chair. The midwife is in front, assisting both the baby and the mother. This triad is shown over and over in the art of different cultures. Interesting, no? The triad promotes stability and support. And it seemed very symbolic to me.
My nursing instructors we're very supportive of midwives and alternate birthing positions. Giving birth in partially supine position does NOT help gravity, and can make birth more difficult. And it was worse a few decades ago.
We've gotten far away from the old ways. I've heard of women scheduling cesareans because their doctors were going on vacation and they didn't "trust" anyone else. Sad.

Edit: I seen to remember some kind of rukus between MD's and midwives in the last few years. I'll try and do a little reseach and find out what it was. I'm pretty sure it was territorial stuff though

[WildClarySage]

12. That's been my experience as well.

The midwife practice I went to when my son was born 10 years ago (the only midwife practice in the state at that time, and perhaps still is) was affiliated with an overseeing physician who was the only practicing abortion provider in the state.

[funflower]

13. I know a lot of "homebirth types," and they are all pro-choice feminists.

I'm suppose there must be some who aren't, but all of the anti-feminists I know had their babies in hospitals.

[mopinko]

15. there are many religious sects that reject hospital births

most of them very conservative ones. so there is a lot of overlap with the fundies. i had 4 home births, and one clinic in the system had prolife stuff around the office.
a lot of the same people are the backbone of the home school movement. very fundie.

[WildClarySage]

16. The fundies I know (am related to...)

are really into the whole power authority thing and seem to crave the reassurance and power structure of organized obstetrical medicine. I guess I can see where some extreme-fundy (extreme for fundies, not simply being redundant!) types would reject modern medicine but most just love being told what to do too much to want to be educated and make thier own decisions. The homebirth-supporting doulas and midwives I know are more likely to reject modern obstetrical practices because of how disempowering the system is for women. But there are exceptions and I suppose there are those who would consider hospital birth to be 'too secular' although hospitals have been, in my experience, even non-relgious ones, anything but secular.

[mopinko]

17. the lubovichers

are the backbone of the homebirth practice i used. there are a couple of others besides the evangelicals that we think of when we say fundies. i can see where there is a real crossover, trust in jesus, not in men, all that yayaya.
it is a place where there is a real cross section of people, as is homeschool. which, if you think about it, makes sense. intense feelings about family crosses all lines.