Why do so many women like "bad boys"?

[alarcojon]

I am male, but have always believed in the social, political, and economic equality of women. Yet I find it distressing that so many women support misogyny by dating, sleeping with, and otherwise indulging "bad boys." If large numbers of women stopped putting up with boorish, violent, misogynistic, homophobic, childish attitudes and behavior, the incentive for men to act this way would drop dramatically.

Certainly, we need to find a way to raise our boys to believe in and work for gender equality, but we also need to help our girls reject guys who are assholes. Any thoughts?

[Heddi]

1. Well I look at it this way

and I have nothing but antectdotes and personal opinions to back this up, but here it goes:

In this society, Type-A personalities are lauded as being "go-getters", etc.

I think it starts in middle and high-school, where generally the TYpe-A personalities are the ones who are Cheerleaders, Sports Players, etc.

In my experience in high school, sports and other non-academic accomplishments were looked upon much more highly than academic achievements. Cheerleaders and Football Players were always on the local news when they won some game, or an award. The Academic Bowl team (like Jeopardy made up of student) won state award after state award and never even got as much as a mention in even the high school newspaper, much less local TV or papers.

We seem to, for some reason, look up to people who are Type-A's. Maybe because in school, they were generally the popular kids, and therefore in the workplace, they're the popular adults.

I worked in Sales for many years, and nearly everyone I worked with was a classic Type-A personality--competitive to the death, assertive to the point of being an asshole, ass-kisser supreme, liar, backstabber--basically capable and willing to do anything that puts them one space ahead of the next guy. Just in casual conversation, I learned that a majority of the other sales people I worked with were either Cheerleaders or JOcks in high school---the competitiveness they learned on the field has carried them through adulthood. THey see everything as a competition, as a chance to 'one up' someone. That's why they're in sales, so that they can profit handsomely off of their competitive nature.

But in addition to that, I found that the most successful salepeople (of which I was not one) were the rudest, meanest, most judgemental, bigoted people I've ever met. ANd this goes for Salespeople I've worked with in both South Carolina and Seattle. They have a very low opinion of anyone who doesn't meet their exceptionally high standards. They belittle others and get joy in doing it. They're given awards in the workplace not so much for performance, but asskissing ability.

These people were the most well-paid and well compensated of the entire sales team. Their high commissions only seemed to further their notion that being rude, crude, and socially unacceptable was an admirable set of qualities, and only encouraged them to raise the bar on their own disgusting behaviour.

I think because these types of people are almost "lauded" in today's society makes them appealing to alot of people, and I just don't understand why.

Women aren't always these innocent little does in a mean old world. I've seen many women act just as boorish as the men around them, in some cases even more boorish than the men around them. Are they doing this because they feel it's the only way they can compete in the "boy's club?" Are they doing this because they feel that it's socially acceptable to be a rude asshole to everyone you meet?

Even look at television---being "assertive" to the point of being rude is common. People openly advertise that "I'm a bitch". We give these people applause in their rudeness and sophmoric attitudes.

I think the women you find that go out with childish, homophobic, and misogynistic men are often women who are childish, homophobic, and misogynistic themselves. They've never learned that they can do better than that--in fact, they probably think they ARE doing better---they're dating a FOOTBALL player, don'tchaknow...and that is the end-all, be-all of the social dating scene.

I probably didn't explain this too well. I just got up...maybe I'll try again later

[chicaloca]

2. wow, really great points...

I never thought of it that way. I also think the looking up to cheerleading and football assholes is a cultural thing -- one of my friends moved to the U.S. from Taiwan when she was about 16, and said she was shocked when she got here that the popular people in high school were the also the stupidest and meanest people in the school. In Taiwan, the smarter you are, the more popular you are.

I'm not so sure, however, that you can generalize and say that the most sophomoric, nastiest guys go out with women who are like them. It does happen, but mean guys also often go out with nice girls. And mean girls often go out with nice guys. And nice people often date other nice people.

Also -- and this is more addressing the original post than yours, Heddi -- I think we notice it more when nice women go out with nasty men because our society has a big problem with blaming the victim. You can see it in the attitude that it's women's responsibility to end the cruel behavior of many men, even though it would make more sense to hold men responsible for their own behavior. In our society, women, like minorities and GLBT folk, are the Other, and when we see one woman engaging in behavior that we don't like, we assume that all other women must also engage in that behavior. We notice it more when women date cruel men than when men date cruel women, and in both situations, we focus more on the woman and what she's doing wrong. It's similar to how white people often assume that all black men are sexual predators because they used to know ONE black guy who maybe kind of seemed like a sexual predator (even though white men are more likely to be sexual predators). The individual is seen as the representative for the entire group.

Furthermore, in my experience with men, the ones who are assholes are quite good at hiding it when they want to go out with someone. It's a fact that most abusive relationships don't start out being abusive; they gradually reach that point, but it happens slowly enough that you can be in love with your abuser before they become a full-fledged abuser. Unfortunately, this is something men are trained into while very young, and I think that it's their responsibility to change just as much as it's white people's responsibility to change before racism will ever end. I've also seen numerous articles in magazines such as FHM and Maxim that are basically about how to fool a woman into thinking you're in love with her in order to get sex -- with men actively trying to deceive us, how are we supposed to know who's the real deal and who's not? Doesn't it make more sense to hold people responsible for their own behavior rather than trying to put it on another group who already has enough things to worry about in their day-to-day struggle to survive? :shrug:

[alarcojon]

8. Blaming the victim

I knew my post was susceptible to this charge. I didn't want it to come off that way, and I stated that we need to raise our boys to behave properly. I am not trying to cut the assholes any slack here at all. Just trying to have an open discussion of some things that have been on my mind.

As I reflect on my dating years, I remember very clearly how I felt punished for being a nice guy by getting fewer dates than the guys who were quite clearly jerks. And I was NOT a loser, even by this society's fucked-up standards. I knew a lot of nice guys who felt this way. We would watch a woman date a total jerk, be ignored when we warned her that he was a jerk, and then wound up being the shoulder to cry on after the break-up, only to have her continue the pattern with a new jerk later.

This stuff has been on my mind of late because my nephew is 15, a bad boy, and gets all the girls he wants. His behavior, which includes poor grades, getting into fights, smoking lots of weed, drinking heavily, and who knows what else, is self-destructive. The whole school knows about his reputation for picking fights, for being defiant of teachers, for always being high and/or drunk, and for running with older guys who are almost certainly criminals and gang members. Yet the girls are all over him. Surely, he is fully responsible for how he treats his girlfriends, but I emphasize that they know exactly what they are getting into.

I completely agree with you that, as white people must end racism, men must end sexism. But my nephew is right now getting the wrong message from the girls in his school - the more I act up, and the more I fuck up, the more ladies I'll get. He even makes fun of his dad (my brother-in-law), who he thinks was a chump for being so nice to women as he was growing up. And I am trying to ask how we can raise our girls to not enable this behavior. That is under the assumption that the primary goal is to raise our boys in a non-sexist way.

Peace, and I hope we can continue this dialogue.

[Wetzelbill]

14. I'll verify that point about nice guys

I was a jock. I was an internationally competitive wrestler and at one time the number one ranked bullrider in the state. I am ultra-competitive, I hate to lose at anything. Not to mention I was pretty popular, I was nominated for Homecoming King for example.

But...

I am a nice guy. Maybe to a fault. I wasn't a loser, by any means, yet I never had many dates. Part of that is I am a little eccentric. I was more into sports then women, or now I am more into writing and stuff then I am into going out and trying to find a date. But, I have always felt like I was punished for being a nice guy. In fact, the times when I have been most successful with women was when I was being a jerk. I rarely am. Hardly ever, maybe only a few times in my life have I been a jerk. But, almost everytime that I was a jerk, I ended up with a girl that night. Not necessarily slept with one, but I ended up with a date that night though.

I have never really had a woman that I was truly nice and good to show that much interest. But, if I didn't pay much attention, or even acted a bit like a jerk - sometimes I may seem like a jerk unintentionally - to a woman it was a totally different ballgame.

I don't know why this is. Maybe just some animal attraction. I'm stumped on it.

[alarcojon]

26. Thanks for weighing in, Wetzelbill

and I am stumped as well. That's why I posted on this subject. I hope we men and women can get somewhere without talking right past each other.

[Wetzelbill]

27. no problem

We definitely need to keep the dialogue between all of us going, that's for sure.

[smirkymonkey]

86. I would say that maturity is largely responsible for the type of

person we choose - immature men and women tend to make choices based on EXTERNALS, i.e. image, looks, coolness, etc. Also, people with self-esteem issues (both women and men) tend to choose people who reinforce thier low opinion of themselves. I also believe we attract our spiritual equivalent in that people who may seem very different on the outside have certain similar spirtual issues to work out so they keep attracting the same kind of person until they learn the lesson.

I used to go for the "hot, cool guy" in my teens and twenties, and although they were never abusive or mean, none of them were right for me. I now avoid bad boys like the plague and I can spot it a mile away. I think I have done enough internal work on myself to be able to feel I deserve a man who is kind and who sees me as human being instead of a trophy or object.

The thing about nice is that often it can be an act (both w/ men and women.) People often "act" nice as a form of manipulation - they do it because they think it will get them what they want.

I want someone who is completely human, completely himself - without any act or cover up or put-on image. So many man are just cardboard sterotypes of our society's limited male roles. I want someone who is secure enough in his manhood to be completely himself.

[alarcojon]

87. Nicely put, smirkymonkey

Thanks.

I also feel that society attempts (in myriad, powerful ways) to limit male roles. This is not to overlook, of course, the deeply limiting roles it attempts to allow for women.

When we are all able to be completely human, society will have come a long way towards equality - perhaps all the way.

[chicaloca]

31. "but I emphasize that they know exactly what they are getting into"

I know you mean well, alarcoeg, but that's victim blaming if I've ever heard it. How do you know that they know exactly what they're getting into? Have you asked them? So many women are abused so badly by their fathers, older brothers and other relatives, etc., that they really don't know what they're getting into. They think that type of treatment is normal -- that's how I wound up in an abusive relationship; I was abused by my dad, and compared with him, my ex seemed like a great guy. Furthermore, I don't like this whole overdone "I was a nice guy in high school and the girls didn't like me" bit. Of course most people think they're nice (although I'm unusual in that I'll readily admit to being a mean-ass bitch. And no, I'd never use that word on any woman except myself.) In my experience, the guys in high school who identified as "nice" guys and who felt they didn't get a fair shake from girls were usually too clingy to the point of being creepy and you could never really trust them because they would say things just to please people. (Not that you were like that, but that was generally what the self-proclaimed "nice guys" were like.)

I also find it odd that so many men are so concerned about solving this "problem" and try framing it as an issue that all women should take pains to solve immediately, yet surprise, surprise, it happens to be an issue that affects them a whole lot, that clearly hurts them. Additionally, I think this viewpoint assumes certain things about women -- i.e., that we're all looking for a long-term relationship with love and romance, and all that crap. But just like men, some women are just looking for a good time, especially when we're young (just like guys). Maybe some women who are going out with your nephew know they can have a casual fling and some sex with him, and not have to worry about hurting his feelings. Maybe because he's a bad boy, they know he's "easy," just like guys do with girls. I've had plenty of female friends who do that, although they won't admit it to many people because they know the labels they'll get if they do.

Also, you said you told your female friends not to go out with certain men, but they didn't listen. With all due respect (and I swear, I don't want to sound nasty) don't assume that just because you tell a woman something she'll listen. Could it be that this was your male privilege kicking in, that you were accustomed to women listening to you when you told them to do something, especially in high school where girls are so eager to please boys? I only tell you this bluntly because it's clear that you're a feminist man and I think you'll actually listen to me on this and consider why you expected your female friends to, well, obey you.

Furthermore, you said you have a wife now, so obviously being a nce guy hasn't completely screwed you over in the dating world. And also, a lot of guys go out with women who are nasty -- why aren't we on those guy's cases? Is it because women are a marked category and we notice their mistakes more than men's?

[alarcojon]

34. Thanks for your reply

Here is mine to you. I've put your comments in italics:

I know you mean well, alarcoeg, but that's victim blaming if I've ever heard it. How do you know that they know exactly what they're getting into? Have you asked them? So many women are abused so badly by their fathers, older brothers and other relatives, etc., that they really don't know what they're getting into. They think that type of treatment is normal -- that's how I wound up in an abusive relationship; I was abused by my dad, and compared with him, my ex seemed like a great guy.

I'm glad you think I mean well! B-)

You're right, abusive upbringings explain a lot of this. I'm sorry to hear about you and your father. But the line you take me to task for was in direct response to your statements that a lot of women don't KNOW they're getting into an abusive relationship. I wanted to emphasize that in my nephew's case, everyone, potential mates included, must or should know that he is far from an angel.

You have explained nicely (both here and below) why, with that knowledge, girls will still go out with him.

We need to work to end the kind of abuse you mention. It is far too widespread.

Furthermore, I don't like this whole overdone "I was a nice guy in high school and the girls didn't like me" bit. Of course most people think they're nice (although I'm unusual in that I'll readily admit to being a mean-ass bitch. And no, I'd never use that word on any woman except myself.) In my experience, the guys in high school who identified as "nice" guys and who felt they didn't get a fair shake from girls were usually too clingy to the point of being creepy and you could never really trust them because they would say things just to please people. (Not that you were like that, but that was generally what the self-proclaimed "nice guys" were like.)

I'm finding it hard to find the words to express myself clearly. I know the type of guy you (and some others) are talking about here, but there ARE "nice guys" who don't fit into your categories. Growing up, I knew that equality between the sexes was an essential goal for me, and it made it harder to go down this relatively lonely road (as a man) to see that it didn't really pay off in the dating scene at that time. It HAS paid off for me in the long run, to which I'll return at the end.

I also find it odd that so many men are so concerned about solving this "problem" and try framing it as an issue that all women should take pains to solve immediately, yet surprise, surprise, it happens to be an issue that affects them a whole lot, that clearly hurts them.

I think I made it abundantly clear that we men need to take care of our business, and that is the primary goal. I certainly didn't demand that all women solve this problem immediately. I'm just looking for a little insight into how we all grow up and what all of us can do to improve the situation.

Additionally, I think this viewpoint assumes certain things about women -- i.e., that we're all looking for a long-term relationship with love and romance, and all that crap. But just like men, some women are just looking for a good time, especially when we're young (just like guys). Maybe some women who are going out with your nephew know they can have a casual fling and some sex with him, and not have to worry about hurting his feelings. Maybe because he's a bad boy, they know he's "easy," just like guys do with girls. I've had plenty of female friends who do that, although they won't admit it to many people because they know the labels they'll get if they do.

I know not all women are looking for a long-term relationship, especially at my nephew's age. Your comments clarify a lot for me. Thanks.

Also, you said you told your female friends not to go out with certain men, but they didn't listen. With all due respect (and I swear, I don't want to sound nasty) don't assume that just because you tell a woman something she'll listen. Could it be that this was your male privilege kicking in, that you were accustomed to women listening to you when you told them to do something, especially in high school where girls are so eager to please boys? I only tell you this bluntly because it's clear that you're a feminist man and I think you'll actually listen to me on this and consider why you expected your female friends to, well, obey you.

No offense taken. To discuss these issues takes a willingness to listen and a little bit of a thick skin. And I AM listening to you.

I advised certain female friends not to go out with certain guys who I knew were creeps. As you point out elsewhere, many guys will go to great lengths to hide their inner asshole from potential dates. However, they rarely bother to hide this inner asshole from other guys. I was giving advice, not ordering anyone around. Rhetorical question: knowing what I knew about certain guys, should I NOT have advised my female friends to steer clear of them?

I know darn well that just because you tell a woman something she might not listen. My sisters taught me that!

Furthermore, you said you have a wife now, so obviously being a nice guy hasn't completely screwed you over in the dating world.

No, it hasn't. As I grew older, I found the right types of women more and more. I landed on my two feet. But I still experienced a lot of pain and confusion growing up due to the issues we are discussing, and want a better world for our children as they reach adolescence and young adulthood. And this all goes back to my nephew - I want to do my part to help him grow up to believe in equality of the sexes, but I need to know his world better to do that.

And also, a lot of guys go out with women who are nasty -- why aren't we on those guy's cases? Is it because women are a marked category and we notice their mistakes more than men's?

My post doesn't imply that I am not on these guy's cases. I think that is also a problem we need to think about. The gender dynamic being reversed, this issue is too much to include in the present post, but I would be happy to discuss it elsewhere.

[chicaloca]

55. well....

I advised certain female friends not to go out with certain guys who I knew were creeps. As you point out elsewhere, many guys will go to great lengths to hide their inner asshole from potential dates. However, they rarely bother to hide this inner asshole from other guys. I was giving advice, not ordering anyone around. Rhetorical question: knowing what I knew about certain guys, should I NOT have advised my female friends to steer clear of them?

Well, I'm going to answer your rhetorical question anyways. You make a good point about how it was only decent to warn them about these guys, and I don't think you erred in telling them what those guys were like behind their backs. Where I do think you should reconsider, however, is in your reaction, in your frustration at the fact that they didn't listen to you. Why were you so upset that your female friends didn't listen to you? That's where I think your male privilege might have been creeping in. I know you were also upset because if you didn't listen to them it might mean they were going to get hurt, but I think there's something more than that going on here, since you're not posting about your guy friends who didn't take your advice on certain things.

Furthermore, you admit yourself that the guys you say are "bad boys" often hide their inner asshole from the girls/women they date. When that's the case, who should women trust? Their guy friends, or their own experiences? It also sounds like you might have been interested in some of these female friends, and you should keep in mind that girls can usually tell when a guy is interested in them, however well you think you're hiding it. If you were telling them not to go out with this guy and they knew you liked them, they might think you had an agenda and were therefore less likely to listen to your criticisms. I know I've done that recently, where a guy friend of mine who liked me seemed worried that I was going to or already had shagged his roommate. As soon as he came to that conclusion, he started telling me all about how his roommate had had this really fucked up relationship in his past, and just generally made a point of talking about his roommate's faults when I was around. Well, I knew damn well what he was doing, and because of that I never have and probably never will believe anything he says about his roommate. I don't think this guy thinks he was being vicious, and he might not even have realized he was doing it.

I know darn well that just because you tell a woman something she might not listen. My sisters taught me that!

LOL! I think I taught my little brother the same thing. I'm now trying to teach that to all the other men in my life, since my brother turned out so well.

[alarcojon]

58. Bueno, chica

There might have been something more going on. I'm human and willing to admit that. Sure, in the major case I'm thinking of, I was interested in the woman, and I'm sure she knew this. Women DO have this sixth sense about these things which I have never been able to get around. :blush:

Still, a big part of it WAS my sincerely not wanting her to get hurt. Indeed, I was right - she did get hurt, did come crying to me, and did go after another guy who I didn't know as well, (so I just asked her what she knew about him) but who turned out to also be a creep. She was one of the most intelligent and seemingly strong people I have ever met, and yes, it did drive me crazy at the time.

If I may add, we ended up staying friends, and we both wound up in happy marriages. ;)

As to bad boys hiding their true nature: at one point you said that if a man tries to hide his true nature from a woman, how can it be the woman's fault? I agree with that. I was trying to contrast that with what I believe to be the situation with my nephew, where everyone knows his track record - drugs, poor grades, flings, etc. And you yourself stated that there are some women who go for guys like that because they know they will be able to get sex without worrying about "strings." Now, I'm no puritan, and I'm not going to fault a teen-age girl for wanting to have sex - I just wish the fling could be a little less exploitative. Does that make any sense?

I love your comment about your hermanito. I'm glad he's turned out well.

On a side note, I was reading another post (I don't remember which one) where you mentioned that you love Sut Jhally. I agree with you - he is great. I know him from his anti-racist work with Michael Eric Dyson and his post-colonial work with Edward Said (my wife is a post-colonial scholar). I did not know he also did anti-sexist work, though of course I am not surprised. Thanks for the info.

Peace

[chicaloca]

88. yup.

I learned about him by watching a video/documentary he made called Dreamworlds: Gender/Sex/Power in Rock Video. I watched it for a college class, and would love to own a copy except that it's really expensive. If you live near a college with a strong liberal arts program, though, you might be able to get an account at their library and check it out. It's well worth it, although it has an excerpt from the movie "the Accused" toward the end that's really disturbing. He sort of merges it with misogynist music videos in a way that gives the viewer a really clear view of how those videos directly contribute to a rape culture. He also has a cool article on gender issues here: http://www.sutjhally.com/onlinepubs/onlinepubs_frame.html

[alarcojon]

89. The rape culture

is something I am actually quite worried about with my nephew. I have known him all his life - he's a good kid. But he's fucking up. Yet it seems to him that he is being rewarded by the ladies for being a "rebel" and "tough." And I am afraid that that makes him a prime target for the rape culture machine. And his mom and step-dad are good people but they are not feminists - my sister has a pretty military approach to discipline with her kids. unfortunately. I NEED to do my part to help steer this kid away from the rape culture, as well as other things like fights, drugs, and crime. And I came here seeking help with that issue.

I am glad to say I have learned a lot from you and other posters in this thread. I can see why you and others made certain assumptions about me at first, and have no issue with any of it. Thanks.

[bobbieinok]

97. thanks for the link.....first time I heard of him; interesting articles

[Eloriel]

94. I've read this entire thread --

and it has some very intersting posts and viewpoints. Chicaloco's posts I thought especially insightful, as well as some of the others' downthread.

But what I wanted to point out is this. Please note this post (#8 aove) well. It reveals the true purpose and agenda for the OP in the first place, and ladies, once again, it's all about men. The poster's history (and resentment about some women during his early dating years):

Just trying to have an open discussion of some things that have been on my mind.

As I reflect on my dating years, I remember very clearly how I felt punished for being a nice guy by getting fewer dates than the guys who were quite clearly jerks. And I was NOT a loser, even by this society's fucked-up standards. I knew a lot of nice guys who felt this way. We would watch a woman date a total jerk, be ignored when we warned her that he was a jerk, and then wound up being the shoulder to cry on after the break-up, only to have her continue the pattern with a new jerk later.

And, as if that's not enough, this male poster's concern about his NEPHEW:

This stuff has been on my mind of late because my nephew is 15, a bad boy,

Now, some of the posters downthread tumbled to the real agenda behind the thread and were properly critical, but what about the rest of you? Do you really not care that once again this group, OUR Group with a women's-issues-only Mission Statement is once again being hijacked? Couldn't a post like this do just as well in the Women's Issues Forum or better yet GD or GDP or even Lounge? Is it REALLY necessary to bring a men's perspective (with concomitant resentment of women) and a man's concern about his male relative to THIS forum?

Does a conversation like this (the dynamics identified) have anything to do with women's lives? Well, yeah. But make no mistake about it: this is STILL all about men, first and foremost and damn near exclusively. AND, as others have pointed out so cogently: identifying women as at fault and "to blame" no matter they do. As always.

I hope we can stop falling for this kind of tripe.

[alarcojon]

95. Don't worry, I won't post stuff like this again

Eloriel, please hear me out. My thread as stated deserves all the criticism you can give it. Fine. It was a mistake I made while browsing through the DU groups, before I realized there were rules for this group and how passionately some of you feel about them. I'm sorry I didn't read them first - that was a mistake and I own up to it fully. I have read them now and plan to abide by them.

Somehow I get the feeling nothing I write will make much of a difference with you. If I try to defend myself in any way (which includes trying to reason with you), you will attack me for my "knee-jerk male defensiveness" or some similar verbal projectile. If I ignore you, you will demand to know why I refuse to "debate" you. And if I mention anything about your "tone" or about "civility" you will claim that I am trying to prevent your voice from being heard or trying to tell you how to express yourself.

So I suppose every post of mine will be followed by an accusation from you that I "don't get it," that you wish men were excluded from this group, and whatever else you might want to include. Oh well.

[Ripley]

98. See, here is what I think is a problem.

You and another male get soooooooo defensive when someone describes how inappropriate your post is (whether intentional or not). Your words are almost a carbon copy of what another man posted in this Group when his posts were taken to task.

Then after acting all hurt, you basically attack Eloriel, saying she will do this or that to you. :nopity:

Maybe you should just say "I'm Sorry. I see the error of my posting in this Group about ______. I'm trying to learn."

How hard is it to do that? Admit your mistake without turning it around on her.

You seem like a thoughtful enough and tough enough guy to handle criticism. Too bad some other guys can't handle it...but maybe for once they'll understand how tough it is being a woman in a man's point-of-view world like the entire rest of DU. Hopefully they have been enlightened.

Hope you take this in the spirit intended.

[alarcojon]

99. Thanks, Ripley

I hope you and other posters can also appreciate, to whatever small extent, how hard it is to not get defensive when the language used against me is so charged.

Anyway, I'll be happy to say: I'm sorry. I see the error of my posting the "bad boys" topic. It was male-centered in a way which violates the rules of this group. I did not understand that then, but I understand it now. I'm trying to learn. This also extends to my early posts on the "men's role in feminism" discussions.

[lukasahero]

100. Hee

In the spirit of lightening things up a bit, and hoping we can move on from this, your suggestion of "I hope you and other posters can also appreciate, to whatever small extent, how hard it is to not get defensive when the language used against me is so charged." is, well, let's use the word ironic here.

alarcoeg, we are women. The language used against us every single day of every single one of our lives is "so charged" as to be nearly unbearable. Yes, we can appreciate it - in ways you, honestly, probably can not. (I think that was kind of Ripley's point above.)

[alarcojon]

101. I get that

Thanks. I'm sure you CAN appreciate it in ways I can't. At best, I can draw analogies with some of my experiences as a Latino in an Anglo dominated, often hostile world. Maybe that's what initially drew me to feminism - how can it be fair to work to end racism without also working to end sexism, homophobia, and all the other "isms"?

[Finder]

3. Bad boy image does not always mean misogynist...

or abusive. The rebel types/rocker types donning leather and cigs turn out to be some of the nicest guys later on. Now if you mean the bad boys as in the ones getting arrested and into fights all the time, many girls gravitate toward them in their own act of rebellion. Of course I am talking high school bad boys here. In later years women make bad choices based on believing they can change someone in the name of "love"(thanks to soap operas and romance novels)or out of desperation or fear of being alone. I used to think these women were duped by the assholes but found many who go back to these idiots in the name of "love" or some other stupid reason.

[spooky3]

4. In addition to all of the above, I'd add: physical cuteness

Before you die laughing, please hear (read) me out!

I think this applies to boys/men as well as to girls/women, but since you asked about women, I'll use women as my examples.

In reading self-help books at various times and reflecting on my own circle of friends and associates, I've come up with this. Some women are very willing to overlook boorish, misogynistic, childish, etc. behavior if guys are physically attractive, but they are totally unaware they are doing this. Instead, many of them fret and fret over why they just aren't attracted to Johnny, who is so sweet, so smart, (add more positive adjectives here) and always willing to listen to them, etc., etc., but instead want Jimmy, who treats them like dirt. Some psychologist then develops some complex theory of how these women need drama because of drama in their childhood, just can't love men who are good to them because their fathers were so cold, etc., etc. But a lot of the time, Jimmy is cute or even drop dead gorgeous, and Johnny, bless his heart, is plain or worse. I'm sure there are women who reject men who have a lot more going for them than the men they prefer, and that for some of them, these complex theories are probably valid. But in most of the cases of this I have seen, it's that the girl/woman does not want to face the simple truth that she isn't all that physically attractive and that she really enjoys the attention from a cutie. But no one wants to admit it because it means admitting one is shallow. These cuties then get away with a lot of bad behavior because there is always someone else who will put up with it.

[Kenneth ken]

5. I'd agree with that

as a species we are drawn to physical attractiveness. Those who are considered highly attractive draw a larger proportion of people to them and so have a larger pool to choose from in selecting a potential mate / date. More so in the image-oriented society we live in at present.

Those who are more plain have to find some way to try to better compete, and that may mean more time and effort spent trying to understand the other-than-physical-attractiveness aspects of what a potential mate / date is looking for.

I'm beautiful, so I don't really have to make an effort to provide anything more than that to a mate.

I'm not beautiful, so I have to find and develop assets that will attract a mate to compensate for my lack of beauty. In men, this may mean learning more compassion; in women it may mean becoming more sexually available.

[chicaloca]

33. No.

as a species we are drawn to physical attractiveness

As humans, we're told what we should find beautiful and we're taught that we should be drawn to it. If it were something innate, all cultures would find the same qualities beautiful.

[Hello_Kitty]

35. Oh c'mon now Chicaloca!

It's soooo much easier to get through life when you can attribute everything to biology. Thinking about and taking responsibility for your behavior or attitudes is just so tedious. :sarcasm:

[Kenneth ken]

36. yes

I didn't define "physical attractiveness" in my post, and I will grant that different societies define for themselves what constitutes physically attractive.

Here's some links:

http://www.jyi.org/volumes/volume6/issue6/features/feng.html

"Today, this symmetry has been scientifically proven to be inherently attractive to the human eye. It has been defined not with proportions, but rather with similarity between the left and right sides of the face Thus, the Greeks were only partially correct. "


http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homepage/group/LangloisLAB/research/paanddev.html

" In addition to research showing that adults treat infants differently as a function of the infant's attractiveness, research shows that infants behave differently toward adults as a function of the adults' attractiveness. For example, babies look longer at faces that are rated as attractive by adults than at faces rated as unattractive by adults. "

PS - in most birds, the males are more colorful than the females, and color is used as one measure in females choosing their mates.

[Hello_Kitty]

37. Babies

That "babies look at certain faces longer" study is frequently cited by defenders of the beauty myth. So, if babies look at faces of people of a certain race longer than those of other races, would that mean that racism should just be taken as inevitable and efforts to eradicate it are pointless? Because that pretty much parallels what we're told by proponents of the biological basis of lookism and sexism.

I'm not saying that you're doing this. It's just that whenever there is a discussion of how crappy and unfair beauty standards are and what we can do to change them someone comes in with the "but it's biological!!" business. Frankly, I don't care if it is.

I don't give a shit what babies look at, what motivated Ug the Caveman's mating habits 100,000 years ago, or how various animals sniff each other's butts to determine who's "hot". The only reason I can possibly think of for this endless research is to advance someone's agenda or maintain the status quo. It's being used to prescribe and enforce "normal" behavior. You, a man, are 'supposed' to like symmetrical women with hourglass figures. If you like another type, well, you must be a deviant freak.

I object to being judged by my appearance in every situation, whether or not it bears upon it. And I don't accept "science-y" explanations for the pressure that is being exerted on vulnerable people by marketers and corporations to conform to a ridiculously unattainable image.

[Kenneth ken]

38. I think we're getting off track

The OP was why women like "bad boys" - i.e. men who are mysoginist, boorish, self-centered etc.

Spooky3 posted that part of it was attractiveness. I agreed and added that people who are considered "attractive" in their society draw a larger pool of admirers, and due to that, may not have to develop their human qualities as much as "less attractive" people.

We do it all the time, even in selecting food at the store; a dented can of peaches may taste just as good as an undented can of peaches, but most people will choose the undented can, because the dented can might indicate something wrong with the peaches inside. That's why dented canned goods are often marked down in price. It really is hard to know whether the contents are still good or not without opening the can.

We also do it with clothes shopping; the first step in purchasing clothes is finding something that appeals to the eye, then finding the right size, then looking at materials, quality of stitching etc.

I do agree that this society is overly concerned with appearance, and it causes a lot of harm, and should be fought against. I think in fighting, my argument would be that physical attractiveness may cause a person's full humanity to remain under-deveoped and thus they may actually be far more flawed than they appear at first glance.

All this sort of relates to my second post in this thread where I said maybe the reason "bad boys" seem to be so successful is that it is perception, and that they can't sustain a relationship, even though they may attract a lot of women. That would be due to flawed character traits that aren't visually obvious. So they have lots of short-term relationships. They're perceived as successful when they're really not.

[Hello_Kitty]

39. Oh yeah, I know it's not the topic and I'm not slamming on you

I promise, I'm not :hi: It's just that I really think people ought to consider what agendas might be lurking behind all these "studies" that are the latest rage and seem to have become an industry unto themselves. Human behavior is very complex and I don't think any type of research can definitively peg it down. Plus, scientists come from the same sexist culture as the rest of us so they're going to bring biases into their work no matter how much they deny it or try to control for it. And the media acts like it's the Holy Grail or something.

You used clothing as an example. OK, some types of clothing appeal to me. But others might think my taste in clothing is hideous and prefer something totally different. Similarly, I find certain men more appealing than others. Other women prefer a different look. My friends and I are often amazed at the wide variance in our physical preferences. I often won't even notice the guys my best friend thinks are to-die-for and vice versa. However, the few that we all agree on are the ones that, coincidentally (hmmm...), just so happen to bear a striking resemblence to the Brat Pitt-ish ideal that the media pushes relentlessly.

[Kenneth ken]

40. okay

whether it is innate or imposed, the quality of "attractive" still allows those who fit that criteria more options in choosing a potential mate.

Brad Pitt, even if he wasn't famous and wealthy, would have more women willing to give him a try as a potential mate, than would give, say Jason Alexander (if he wasn't famous and wealthy either), a try.

So, Mr Alexander, in order to compete, probably has to make more effort to find and develop in himself qualities/traits/characteristics that will attract women.

If neither of them make any effort to develop compassion, and remain self-obsessed, Mr Pitt would likely be seen as a womanizer or "bad boy" with a proportionately larger number of women who spent some time with him before deciding he was a lost cause, than would Mr Alexander, who would more likely whine about how women like "bad boys" or were shallow or some other whine.

[chicaloca]

52. baby studies

What I really don't get about those studies where babies stare at certain types of faces longer is, how do they know that the babies are staring at the face because it's attractive? What if the babies are thinking, "damn, that is one weird-looking person!" and the researchers interpret it as the babies looking at those faces longer because they're attractive. I mean, did they interview the babies afterward to ask why they stared at the faces longer? :shrug:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

54. Ha!

I love this line from ccbombs, too:

"I don't give a shit what babies look at..."

[Kenneth ken]

71. good question

for which I have no answer. :blush:

[Hello_Kitty]

78. Nor do most people

And yet people will constantly cite these studies as "proof" of something. And that something is often some type of behavior they don't want to change in themselves.

[Wetzelbill]

16. dammit, I'm a poor old Johnny I think

:)

[lukasahero]

19. My husband was too until we met 6 years ago... ;-)

Nothing wrong with "poor old Johnny" if you ask me.

[Wetzelbill]

20. well, I guess I will survive after all :)

[Hello_Kitty]

79. BTW spooky3, despite this tangent I fully agree w/your post. n/t

[spooky3]

84. Thanks, cc, and Kenneth, Jerry Hall (Jagger's ex) agrees:

"I think if I weren't so beautiful, maybe I'd have more character."

http://www.cybernation.com/quotationcenter/quoteshow.php?type=author&id=3835

[Kenneth ken]

6. a slightly different perspective

How much of what we see in relationships is real vs perception?

Adding on to the idea of physical attraction, do we see an attractive/handsome "bad boy" as successful with women because he is able to "get" a lot of different women? Do we overlook the underlying reality that part of the reason he may "get" a lot of different women is that because he is unable to sustain a relationship, is rejected by a lot of women after they spend some time with him and get to know him?

As a generalized example, look at Hollywood. Most known actors/actresses are physically attractive; many of them seem to cycle through relationships pretty quickly. Is it because they have so much opportunity, or is it that they are so self-obsessed that they can't sustain a relationship, and so they cycle through relationships as a consequence of their inability to sustain a relationship?

Opportunity is also a factor. A physically attractive person may not be able to sustain a relationship, but they will perhaps more opportunites to try because even though one fails, someone else is more readily available due to their physical attractiveness. A less attractive person who fails at a relationship may spend more time trying to find another opportunity.

[Finder]

7. Makes sense, but...

assuming that sustaining a relationship means one is a good guy is too general. Patriarchy dictates the whole one male/one female ideal. Just because a man doesn't want to settle down and have a family does not make him misogynist--although some females who feel rejected may accuse him of such.

I imagine some may be self-obsessed but again, that is a generalization.

[Kenneth ken]

11. true

the original question was generalized, as were my comments/questions.

Self-obsessed, controlling, violent, misogynist, dangerously unpredictable( aka exciting? ) - I don't think all of these labels would apply to any "bad boy" but probably a combination of one or more, along with a couple other labels as well would provide an umbrella description under which all "bad boys" might be grouped and generalized.

"Bad boy" in itself is a generalized label that applies to males who don't fit into the patriarchal one male/one female propagating-the-species view of what society typifies as "good" and "normal".

Maybe the solution is to move away from umbrella descriptions such as "bad boy" and more aptly applying labels like abusive to those who are violent; misogynist to those who hate and denigrate women, controlling to those who seek to dominate, etc.

So far in this thread we don't all seem to agree on the definition of "bad boy" so how can we address "bad boys" as a problem if we don't even know what the term means?

[Hello_Kitty]

9. I've enjoyed reading this thread

Something I could add is that a lot of "nice" people really aren't. Niceness is a behavioral strategy, not necessarily a sign of ethics or good moral character. Some people use agreeableness to disguise passive-aggression. A lot of the so-called nice guys I've known are pretty shallow, pissed because the hot babes they want won't date them. Or they are socially inept, incapable of reading nonverbal cues that indicate whether someone finds you attractive or not.

And there's often that whole entitlement/gatekeeper mentality lurking in the mind of the self-described nice guy, even the one who insists he's a feminist. He assumes that women are empty vessels, with no desires or wants of our own. We're just idly waiting for the first man to come along and give us some suck-uppy compliments and do a few favors for us. That will cause us to fall madly in love with him and want to have his babies and do his laundry for all eternity. But women just have this aggravating habit of having our own tastes and ideas and not just falling in line with their expectations. That's when you hear the common lament "Women just don't like nice guys!" I'm like, no dude, I just don't like you.

Which reminds me of a very excellent sticker I had once which read "I'm not afraid of commitment. I'm afraid of YOU."

[Logansquare]

67. Great sticker!

The one his/her lover can wear is:

If you truly love something, you can let it go.

And then you hunt it down and kill it.

[Wetzelbill]

73. I'm just going to check whenever you post so I can read all the

funny things you say.

[Logansquare]

75. Thanks, Wetzelbill!

[Eloriel]

93. Uh, I don't see the humor in that at all

Please explain why on earth you think it's remotely funny. This has got to be good.

I've seen that very sticker on the windows and bumpers of big honkin' pickup trucks, with oversized wheels, and lots of other offensive stickers (Confederate flags, for example) AND the obligatory gun rack or two. Believe me, that sticker wasn't meant as a joke to those guys.

In a culture where:

When a woman leaves her batterer, her risk of serious violence or death increases dramatically.

* separated/divorced women are 14 times more likely than married women to report having been a victim of violence by their spouse or ex-spouse.
Bureau of Justice Statistics: Female Victims of Violent Crime, 1991.

and:

* 65% of intimate homicide victims physically separated from the perpetrator prior to their death.
Florida Governor's Task Force on Domestic and Sexual Violence, Florida Mortality Review Project, 1997, p.47, table 17.

and:

Domestic homicide is often the culmination of an escalating history of abuse.

* female homicide victims are more than twice as likely to have been killed by an intimate partner than are male homicide victims.
Bureau of Justice Statistics: Female Victims of Violent Crime, December, 1996.

* 88% of victims of domestic violence fatalities had a documented history of physical abuse.
Florida Governor's Task Force on Domestic and Sexual Violence, Florida Mortality Review Project, 1997, pp.46-48, tables 14-21.

and so forth...
http://www.abanet.org/domviol/stats.html

I just don't understand why you wouldn't find a bumper sticker like that absolutely chilling. I'll admit, domestic violence (and all violence against women) is one of my all-time hot button issues, but even if it weren't, I still wouldn't be amused.

So please tell me, where in GAWD's name is the humor in such a slogan?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

10. For every "bad boy" who gets nice women, I could name at least one

nasty, cruel, narcissistic, even sociopathic woman who has nice men pathetically trembling in anticipation of a smile from her.

Why does one man drive hundreds of miles to visit the ex-wife who told him that he was homely, not "dynamic," a lousy lover, and lacking a future, even though she's married to someone else? Why does another stay married to a woman who was spectacularly and humiliatingly unfaithful and then moved across the country with their children for no particular reason? Why does a cousin of mine stay married to a woman who treats him like a servant and is never satisfied?

Here's my take on it:

1) You think that the women who go after the "bad boys" are desirable because of how they look. A couple of years ago, a DUer in the Lounge asked why the "hot babe" he saw in the supermarket was with such an obvious jerk. My answer to him was that perhaps she was a jerkette and that they may have been perfectly suited to each other.

2) It may be that she grew up as an abused child and that abuse was the only attention that she ever got. Therefore, abuse feels better than being alone. Up to a point.

3) There are plenty of nice women out there. "Nice" men just don't see them, because they don't fit their standards of beauty. I once actually saw a personals ad in which a man asked for "a petite blond or redhead, dress size 6 to 8." What if his ideal mate is actually a brunette, dress size 14, and she leaves town or takes up with someone else while he's chasing all the short, thin blonds and redheads?

I think that part of growing up is learning to look beyond the physical and trying to perceive the personality and character. I've found that anyone whose personality appeals to me suddenly becomes attractive in my eyes. If you lined up a portrait gallery of the men I've been seriously attracted to over the decades, they would resemble each other only in looking intelligent and witty.

There's an old song: 'She's got eyes of blue/I never cared for eyes of blue/but she's got eyes of blue/and that's my weakness now."

4) Too many "nice guys" really are boring. By that I don't mean that they lack prison records: I mean that all they can talk about is work and sports and whatever conventional wisdom is being spouted on TV, all they do in their spare time is watch TV or do something outdoors. They don't read books. They think their balls will wither away if they attend a cultural event. They'd never beat a woman up, but frankly, if the choice were between lifelong spinsterhood and marrying one of those limited, scared-to-step-out-of -his-comfort-zone Typical American Guys whose major concern is What the Other Guys Think, I'd take spinsterhood every time.

5) Other "nice guys" aren't that nice at all. They're simply desperate and full of anger towards the women who have the effrontery to reject them. (Several such characters seem to frequent the Lounge.) I tell each of them to get a frank assessment from a platonic female friend, because ONLY a member of the opposite sex can really tell you how the opposite sex perceives you. But that's threatening. They might learn something about themselves that they don't want to hear. (I know I did when a friend's husband talked to me about how I came across.) But no, they won't do that. It's much more fun to believe all the other equally clueless guys who say, "Be a heartless bastard. They're all bitches," than to look at one's own failings.

[Lisa0825]

28. aren't there more than two types of guys out there?

4) Too many "nice guys" really are boring. By that I don't mean that they lack prison records: I mean that all they can talk about is work and sports and whatever conventional wisdom is being spouted on TV, all they do in their spare time is watch TV or do something outdoors. They don't read books. They think their balls will wither away if they attend a cultural event. They'd never beat a woman up, but frankly, if the choice were between lifelong spinsterhood and marrying one of those limited, scared-to-step-out-of -his-comfort-zone Typical American Guys whose major concern is What the Other Guys Think, I'd take spinsterhood every time.



I agree with this. I also think the criteria of nice and bad are ambiguous and complicated by dozens of other characteristics.

I LIKE nice guys. But I don't like nice guys who are too quiet, too shy, lacking in a spirit of adventure, etc.

I don't like bad boys who don't care about hurting people, using people, lying, cheating, etc.

I like guys who have good hearts, but like to get wild now and then (or often;-) ). I like guys who are a bit too boisterous sometimes, or too blunt because they think it's appropriate at the moment to get their point across. I like guys who can say something sweet to me in the morning, and something rather shocking at night.... in a good way of course. I like guys who have a spine and aren't afraid to stand up for themselves, or for me.

I think too many people think nice entails a lot of dull, dry factors. You can BE NICE, and still have an edge, a wild side, or even a tacky sense of humor.

[alarcojon]

61. Yes!

I've been trying to suggest that there is a middle way between the self-absorbed, abusive jerk and the passive-aggressive, boring, self-proclaimed nice guy. For me, it was hard to try to find this middle way - I didn't exactly have many role models for how to be a feminist man growing up.

[alarcojon]

12. Thanks to all for your replies

They've given me a lot to think about, and I thank you.

I live far away from my nephew, so I only see him a few times a year, but I always try to preach respect for women to him, and of course to practice what I preach. But I am no match for little Erica, who's all too glad to come over at a moment's notice and give him a quickie.

We live in a fucked up society, don't we??!!!??!?!?!

[Misunderestimator]

13. Why is it that I only hear men ask why "so many" women like "bad boys"...

I don't ever hear women say that a lot of women like bad boys. There are some of course, but certainly not "so many." And those "some" can do whatever they like. I don't judge them for their taste in men.

I do however think you'll find VERY FEW women on a progressive site like this who would put up with a "boorish, violent, misogynistic, homophobic, childish" man... so, I'm not really getting the point of the thread. :shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. You said it, Misunderestimator

That topic seems to come up in the Lounge with depressing regularity, usually when some young guy has been rejected by a woman he tried to bribe into loving him.

"I'm a nice guy," he whines. "I took her out to dinner, sent her flowers, paid off her credit cards, and changed the oil in her car for free. Why didn't she fall in love with me instead of with that jerk?"

Underlying those complaints is the notion that there's something wrong with any woman who rejects them.

Maybe the women who reject them are users and manipulators. Maybe the women who reject them find them "boring and tedious and deadly-deadly dull." Maybe the women who reject them can sense a passive-aggressive whiner at 100 yards. Maybe the women find it creepy that someone they sense no rapport with is taking them out to dinner, sending them flowers, paying off their credit cards, and changing the oil in their car for free.

[Finder]

17. Thanks for the chuckle....

"Maybe the women who reject them are users and manipulators. Maybe the women who reject them find them "boring and tedious and deadly-deadly dull." Maybe the women who reject them can sense a passive-aggressive whiner at 100 yards. Maybe the women find it creepy that someone they sense no rapport with is taking them out to dinner, sending them flowers, paying off their credit cards, and changing the oil in their car for free."

:rofl:

[Hello_Kitty]

18. The rule seems to be

If you're a woman and can't get a man - it's your fault. The solution is to lose weight, get a makeover, become more interesting and accomodating, etc. etc.

If you're a man and can't get a woman - it's women's fault. They are obviously incapable of seeing the prize that you are due to them being man-hating witches and/or stupid masochists who like to be mistreated. The solution is to complain to anyone who will listen what a 'nice' guy you are and possibly get yourself a mail order bride from a poverty stricken and oppressive country. They know how to appreciate a guy.


At least there's consistency :shrug: It's always my fault.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Yup, that's exactly the way it is!

:thumbsup:

(Only they don't say "witches") :-)

[Logansquare]

69. Funny/creepy anecdote about mail order brides

and the "men" who "love" them. I work at a university which allows alumni to use the computer labs. We have a regular, about 50 years old, with very few physical charms to recommend him. Now I've known some bald, pot-bellied men who were very disarming and even sexy, but this guy is a black hole of personality and charisma. He comes in all the time to troll the "cherry-blossoms" websites. Today he brought a friend, the human personification of a weasel. Really, I don't know how these guys found each other. I walked in to troubleshoot a technical problem with a student, and saw that they were checking out Russian brides. Weasel complained, "Where are all the PRETTY girls?"

Now that's male entitlement!

[Wetzelbill]

72. ha! you're a clown.....you amuse me

[Logansquare]

76. But, I'm funny how?

Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to fuckin' amuse you?

Apologies to "Goodfellas" Thanks for the ultimate compliment, IMO. I value humor a lot.

[Wetzelbill]

83. you really are a funneee gu,,,,,gir.....woman

:)

[chicaloca]

32. EXACTLY!

This attitude reeks of yet another way to control women's actions in the guise of "protecting" us.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

21. Why would a nice guy

want to be with a woman who didnt like nice guys?
Does the nice guy know that the woman he's trying/wants
to be with doesnt go for nice guys?
Is there some reason the nice guy
doesnt go for a woman who's LOOKING for a nice guy?
Either way, you gotta be who you are sooner or later.
If youre an ahole acting like a nice guy
for manipulative purposes, your aholeness will come out
sooner or later and youll be seen for who you are--
Oh my God it's an ahole, RUN!
If youre a nice guy acting like an ahole to be with
those "many women" who allegedly dig bad boys, your
niceness will come out sooner or later and youll be
caught out without your ahole bad boy mask on.
Oh no it's a Nice Guy, RUN!
If youre who you are (might take a while), then youll learn
just what youre meant to learn about yrself & women & love.
If youre somebody other than who you really are, then youre
moving thoo life backwards & everything will be going before
you even see it.

The reason theres so much sexism on this site is that it
takes more than a hatred of George Bush to make a person who
wants to discover who they really are & how to be
a better human being among other human beings.

[Misunderestimator]

29. Wow. Great post!

:thumbsup:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

30. Thank you.

I learned the hard way. If only there were shortcuts.

[Logansquare]

43. That post, in addition to your "pet" post, has made you one of my faves

on this site. Thanks.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

45. I thank you

& Oscar thanks you.

[Wetzelbill]

62. you know I never quite caught this before

I must've kept skipping over it. Really interesting. That last little paragraph about Bush hatred and sexism was nothing short of genius. Nice observation. Good post.

[Hello_Kitty]

23. Guilt

That's another thing I thought of when reading this thread. Looking back on my life, I have to admit there were many times when I kicked sweet, gentle men to the curb in favor of assholes who were none too kind to me. Much as I liked the nicer guys, there was always this underlying sense of guilt. Guilt for not being as attracted to them as they were to me and for knowing that I would never live up to the high estimation they had of me. People (guys especially) have a bad habit of putting those they find physically attractive on a pedestal. Well, I for sure don't belong on one. I'll reveal my feet of clay in numerous ways. I fart, belch, disarm verbal opponents with scathing sarcasm, and am frequently in a shitty mood. I don't always have charitable thoughts of people and when I've shared them with a nice guy, he'd often recoil in shock at it. It just wasn't fun to date nice guys. It felt like an obligation and like I couldn't be myself.

With the bad boys, that wasn't the case. I rarely felt guilty with them because it was they who were failing to fulfill obligations and I could focus on that. Besides, I didn't feel like *I* had to be so frigging nice all the time.

Now, I've matured so I actually prefer the company of guys who actually like me. But I'll never be a sweet demure little thing so I do get along better with a man who has a bit of a hard edge to him.

[spooky3]

24. I'll take your rejects! I like nice guys. But a wicked sense of humor

is a nice asset.

[alarcojon]

25. As a nice guy with an edge

(or so my wife tells me) I appreciate your response. As I was growing up, I know that I did put women on a pedestal, but that changes with maturity. My wife farts, belches, and all of those other things...

[all.of.me]

41. i can only speak for myself

bad boys affirm low self esteem. i have changed my patterns with a lot of hard work and counseling over the last 30 years, but my choices in men came directly from my father telling me i was not good enough - not smart enough, not pretty enough, not capapble to do anything. that was coupled with having been given up for adoption as an infant, which has its own set of consequences, mostly in the relationship area. it's all very complex, but bad boys kept my childhood cycle going.

i truly believe that if every single person on the planet worked on their childhood issues, instead of blaming everyone around them and acting out, there would be world peace. until we deal with what is inside, what is outside will never change.

[alarcojon]

50. Yes, and this is tragic

and we as a society need to figure out a way to break this cycle of abuse and low self-esteem. And one way to do that has GOT to be to teach our boys to treat women as equals. But, also, we have to teach our girls to find self-esteem and worth in themselves, so they are less likely to be taken in by the assholes.

[Logansquare]

42. Attributing this behavior to one gender is bullshit. Maturity will help.

I used to bemoan the fact that men I was crushing on only wanted to go out with conventionally beautiful, and very often mean or psycho women. Somewhere down the line I grew up, and had a stunning revelation: people are not puppets or chess pieces that you get to move whereever it pleases you. Both men and women have the right to be attracted to whomever they want, and my "needs" or anyone else's do not take precedence over their right to love. That's what your question is really about: why don't all these hot women come to their senses and want ME?

[Misunderestimator]

44. why don't all these hot women come to their senses and want ME?"

That is EXACTLY what his question is. Really well put. :thumbsup:

[Wetzelbill]

47. well he is married, so I think he is genuinely asking a question

Not necessarily "why don't they come to their senses and want me."

But, yeah, all too often men feel like that, I have sometimes, but it isn't right to sit around and play that game. Yeah, it sucks that she isn't attracted to you, but that's tough, you need to move on. Maybe she's being shallow, but then maybe you're being shallow for liking someone like her when a wonderful women is out there wondering what you see in someone who doesn't want you when you could be with them. Men need to examine a woman's POV a little more. Well, a lot more.

But, I do understand what you mean. I just think he was hoping to get some insight on male behavior, why women are attracted to that type and how can you go about changing it. Imho, anyway.

BTW, it's nice to see you somewhere other than GD and the Lounge. :hi:

[Misunderestimator]

48. I was quoting the line from above, as it does really fit...

regardless of someone's marital status.

I've been posting in this forum quite a bit... surprised you're surprised to see me here. :shrug: But... :hi:

yes, men need to examine a woman's POV a lot more. ;)

[Wetzelbill]

51. oh I see what you meant, ok.....

Not surprised to see you. Just said it was good to see you. :)

[Finder]

49. The challenge...

of the whole dating/mating game is an attraction to humans, male and female.

[Wetzelbill]

46. Personally, I have had some serious bad taste myself....

I had a wonderful girlfriend who loved me, respected me for my brain and my athletic career, she, in retrospect, was everything I could ever dream of. She did move away, and it was a long distance thing after awhile, but I never gave her what I should have. I wasn't as attracted to her as I was to other women. The distance made it unworkable, as we were young and she lived in another state, but I let her go way to easy, thinking that maybe I could do better. I haven't .

I also was attracted to a very good looking girl, she was a great student, has a great career now and outwardly was all a man could want. I wanted her for 5 years, I was totally infatuated with her. Sure, I dated a few women here and there, but everyone knew who I wanted. Now, I say this with no bitterness at all, but you mentioned that men you were crushing on only wanted conventionally beautiful and very often mean women, well, you hit the nail on the head with that. This woman was awful to me, and I say that, not in a way to mean:"she doesn't want me so she has to be a *itch." I mean she was flat out awful. I worshipped the very dirt that she treated me like, too, haha. Our mutual friends were disgusted with how she acted. She was just a psycho about even getting along. I couldn't say hello to her without her going behind my back telling people the meanest stuff possible. I used to think it was my fault,and that people thought less of me for what she would say. But, I had so many people tell me otherwise, that she was just mean and vindictive with regards to me.

And, I tell you honestly, she wasn't half the woman that my former gf was. I never realized it until later, but by then it was too late. My former gf is a beautiful woman too. Funny how shallow and dumb we all can be.

So I guess what I'm saying is, it works both ways. Often times both men and women are enthralled by someone who isn't good for them. I don't necessarily think it's a gender exclusive thing. Not at all. In fact, guys are more superficial than women. I'm just as likely to go out with a woman for shallow reasons as a woman would be. Probably more so.

[chicaloca]

53. wow.

I wish more men would be as honest as you are about their past motivations for liking women. I mean, all the straight guys I know will come right out and talk about how they like this girl because she's hot, blah blah blah, but when I call them on it they either won't admit that it's wrong to like someone based only on their looks or they'll deny ever saying things like that. Argh. And as your experience clearly demonstrates, the "hot women are everything" attitude also serves to hurt men when they end up chasing or going out with a "hot" woman who treats them like shit. Gee guys, maybe you wouldn't end up hurt so often if you went after women based on personality and not looks!

Anyhow, thanks for your insights. Hope to see you around here a lot! :hi:

[Wetzelbill]

65. thank you

Yeah, I hope to be around here alot. I plan to be anyway.

The thing is, I consider myself to be someone who really cares for a woman for non-superficial reasons. And, by and large, I do. However, sometimes a man can get it into his head that someone is something that she is not. That's where I got into trouble with the one girl. I saw an attractive, intelligent woman who was special. Well, she was attractive, she was a good student, but after that it got a lot more ugly. She really only had one friend. She got along with people here and there, but I knew that most people didn't like her. I can't tell you how many times I might be talking to somebody - usually a woman - and having a friendly discussion and they might ask me if I had a gf or was interested in someone. I would mention this girl's name and the person I was talking to would just be shocked, as in: "YOU like HER." It was as if, I put her on a pedestal so much, that I couldn't see what she was truly like. Now, I should say that we since have made up, and she e-mailed me a few years ago and congratulated me on some of my successes and stuff, and that's fine. We haven't saw each other at all in over 5 years, and I pretty much wouldn't care if we ever did, in all honesty. She just got married and good for her, too. But, we could never get along. Not in person. Ever. I could have avoided all of this if I wasn't being superficial. I didn't realize I was, I thought I liked her for all the right reasons, but I didn't.

If you like someone based on only their looks and they don't have much else to offer than you probably are setting yourself up for a fall. That applies to a person of any gender. Anyway, I guess I was being redundant. But, yeah, thanks for reading this and all.

[UCLA Dem]

56. Q: It always seemed to me that "nice" guys liked the jerky girls. Why?

Many of the guys I liked always wanted to go out with the really bratty and mean "popular" girls, who didn't care about anyone and just used people.

I think maybe it works both ways. Nice girls get passed over too.

[alarcojon]

59. I completely agree - it works both ways. eom

[Wetzelbill]

66. Because guys are morons until we are at least 30 or so......

:)

Nice girls do get passed over. Nice guys, like myself - I'm nice to a fault - sometimes look at popular women and try to find ways that aren't superficial to like them, so it justifies their natural lust. If a popular girl is a good student, well, a nice guy will convince himself that she has looks and "brains" and that's why he likes her, because she is a total package. Then we go and put those women on a pedestal, and find ways to convince us that we have a chance. "Oh she laughed at my joke." "She smiled and called me sweet when I said she looked pretty." It's easy for a guy to get manipulated and used. We pretty much walk into it. Then we are often just too stupid to see that nice cute girl who is right under our noses, because we are too wrapped up noticing someone who has us wrapped around her finger. In my case, I'm just a complete goofball. A woman practically has to club me over the head and drag me back to her cave before I realize she's interested. I had many a "friend" who, in retrospect, would have like to have been more, yet I was too blind to see it.

[UCLA Dem]

77. Amen to that!!!

[Hello_Kitty]

80. The more shallow and materialistic a woman is

The more guys are salivating over her. Or so it seems to me. I've got one acquaintance who totally judges men by their incomes and demands expensive stuff from them. They eat it up. Guys are smitten with her, which I can't understand because although she's fairly attractive (not spectacularly so), she's not very interesting. But I'm not a guy so I don't know what they see in her. I've known women like her my whole life and they always have a man, often a poor sap who can't afford all the crap she wants.

My best friend and I, on the other hand, are self-supporting with good jobs. Neither one of us would even think of behaving that way. It's not that we don't attract men, but we are both often told that we're "intimidating". When I've asked people why this is they can't really explain it. One guy told me it was because I seemed very smart and independent. Smart and independent. Very frightening qualities, apparently. Oh well, their loss.

[Finder]

81. But look at it this way...

Self-confidence is very attractive. You state your friend isn't particularily beautiful(there goes the beauty standard myth)but she acts beautiful by being self-confident. I think we all agree perception is a powerful factor. Perhaps your "friend" is shallow and materialistic or she could just be self-confident and has a high self-worth.

[Hello_Kitty]

85. Possibly around guys she seems confident

Around her female friends she's actually very needy. We constantly have to reassure her that she's attractive. It's "Do you think I'm fat?" all the freakin' time! Going shopping with her is a bit of a chore. Maybe she gets that out of her system with us and acts more poised around men :shrug:

[Misunderestimator]

57. Why do so many women like "boys" at all?

Is just as valid a question... After all, the fact that the vast majority of women date men, leaves a very small percentage for me. I could complain until the cows come home about how I would be a better match for these women who go for men, but that wouldn't change anything. Instead, I try to find women who are suited to me.

If large numbers of women didn't date men at all, I think we would have MUCH better success advancing women's rights. How about them apples? :)

[alarcojon]

60. Interesting point

Not sure I agree, but....

I know my thread is heterosexist, but that is in the nature of the subject matter. Though it would be an interesting question as to whether this sort of dynamic exists, and if so to what extent, among lesbians (and gay men, for that matter). Perhaps a subject for another thread?

[Misunderestimator]

63. My point was an analogy...

(though it could perhaps be a subject for another thread). The point being... There are a HUGE number of women out there to choose from, why even worry about women who choose "bad boys?"

As for the other point of the thread, sure, it would probably help to have more women in the feminist movement who are proud to call themselves feminists. But, it's not logical to strive to recruit everyone to behave a certain way or to be attracted to certain types of people. It's like worrying about right-wing fundamentalists who will ALWAYS vote republican. I don't waste my time on that group. And I don't waste my time recruiting women who have values like those you describe or worry about whether their behavior affects me.

And for another analogy.... it would definitely be helpful to the gay "movement" if we could convince a lot more people to "join" us and behave like we do. Now that's odd, isn't it? Behave like we do... doesn't sound right. Expecting all women to behave in a certain way doesn't sound right either.

[Wetzelbill]

64. hey! no fair!

I had a friend of mine tell me recently that she likes girls also (well, she likes me but we live a little far away now, so we aren't a couple or anything) but she said she has dated girls before. Then she added, "Women are so much more beautiful than guys are."

Now, how are us men going to compete with that? :) You women have it all over us.

[Logansquare]

68. Well, other men might find you cute

:)

[Wetzelbill]

70. well as a matter of fact.......

:)

[lukasahero]

74. On the flip side

my best friend when I was growing up was a gay male. The fact that, from my experience, I (representative of females in my young mind) found males more attractive and he, (representatives of males) found males more attractive led to some rather strange understanding of feminine beauty on my part - like, it didn't exist strange...

Just thought I'd share an alternative perspective on the "beauty" issue.

[Wetzelbill]

82. that is an interesting pov

[kalibex]

90. My 2 cents:

'Bad Boys', with their aggressive ways, offer the illusion of competency.

Since, of course, it takes much more than obsessive self-assertion to work well as part of a community.

-B

[Hello_Kitty]

91. Yep.

I agree with that. And since most women are brought up to consider themselves not competent, particularly at "manly" skills, a lot of us tend to gravitate to guys that exude confidence and competence and stay away from guys who don't.

[Hello_Kitty]

92. Something else to consider

Which has been an issue for me, so maybe some of you have experienced it as well. Ever been out with a guy who doesn't embody the macho he-man stereotype in whatever way, maybe he's smaller or soft-spoken and comes off more sensitive and run into a typical Alpha Male, or even worse, a group of them? They are like sharks. I've had them come right up and hit on me in front of my boyfriend! They do it to humiliate him, and to let me know that I'm supposed to be dating someone like him.

I'm not just imagining this. I work with mostly men and I've learned never to bring anyone I'm dating around them. They tear him apart. They have no qualms about making audible disparaging comments about my date in his presence and then letting me know exactly what they think is wrong with him afterward. I think it's partly a function of them feeling sort of paternalistic toward me but it's also partly a way to enforce certain standards on me. I honestly think a lot of women choose their mates based upon who will get the least picked on by the guys she knows.

And they call us catty....Sheesh!! :eyes:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

96. I've seen something similar

when men can't understand how a man who is not stereotypically masculine or whose looks aren't the greatest can win the heart of an attractive woman or has a lot of women clamoring for his attention.

Well, duh, maybe it's because he is a genuine sweetheart (not a passive-aggressive type who goes around wailing about how "sensitive" he is), maybe it's because he genuinely likes women (not just lusts after them), maybe it's because he's interesting to talk to.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

102. Why on earth would you come to a feminist forum to generalize women?

I am very happy you consider us equals except when accepting our judgement on which man or woman to be with..which indicates you don't consider us equals at all based on your paternal "father knows best" ideas about who should be with whom.

I doubt you can actually PROVE that men would stop being boorish etc if all us women didn't poison them all by dating them (uh, sort of reminds me about that bullshit biblical story about Eve giving Adam an apple so it's all our fault)

Either way...you posted a huge generalization that clearly doesn't belong in this forum and is not our problem.

Our problem is people with preconceived notions dictating our rights, our bodies, our lives and how we "should" be and who we "should" be with.

[alarcojon]

103. As I have mentioned, I made a mistake in posting this here

and I have apologized for that. You will not be seeing future posts like this from me in this group.

I accept your point - it is paternalistic to presume to tell women whom to be with. I think there's more to the story, but this group is not the place to discuss it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

104. If you had posted what you posted in post #8, I would have no issue

that was about a specific person (your nephew) and specifically the women that would go out with him.

It was also about your experiences in high school. I have no issue with people sharing their specific incidents in life. I do have a problem with women being stereotyped for this.

YOur nephew probably gets all the girls he wants because some girls are substance abusers just like some guys are, and girls with a substance abuse issue will find a guy with substances to abuse attractive. They're kids at an age where environment shapes all.

[alarcojon]

105. Thanks for your insight

I am trying to educate myself, and I made a mistake there, from which I'm trying to learn.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. And that much is totally cool with me. None of us wants to fit the mold

others lay out for us. :thumbsup: