Traditional religion and feminism. Are they mutually exclusive or moving

[efhmc]

in the right direction? My church has "allowed" women into the ministry since the early 70's, otherwise I would not still be a member. In changing their doctrine, part of the statement about equality was well stated and I include it here:

(a) sexuality is a part of life but not the whole of life;
(b) men and women are persons, not things;
(c) men and women are equal as persons, complementary in their sexuality, mutually related in their wholeness;
(d) under God and in relation to other persons each human being possesses unique worth and integrity;
(e) the right to make decisions affecting one's life is of the essence of personhood;
(f) men and women have the freedom to make choices related to work, community service, education, marriage, parenthood, and the like;
(g) freedom is a release from bondage to sin and self and a release for service to others as to Christ;
(h) responsible self-fulfillment is rewarding to the person and beneficial to church and society;
(i) neither pride nor the quest for self-satisfaction on the part of either men or women should cause neglect of children, overlook their welfare, or deny them the care and nurture they need;
(j) to do the will of God on earth as the Spirit gives understanding, the needs of others require, and resources permit is part of every person’s calling.

Here is the source for this information: http://www.elca.org/jle/alc/alc.women_men_church_society.html

Edited to add this. (Did you notice how the word "men" is always first? Nit picking but it irritated me.)

[donsu]

1. I don't think a woman can be a complete feminist & be religious

note: I said "complete".

[efhmc]

2. You think they cannot be part of any religion or just the more traditional

religions? Could you please explain your thoughts on this a little more?

[donsu]

4. religions are a male made construct that demeans women

if you still believe religious stuff then you are not a complete feminist because you are buying into their fantasy put into practice that demeans you.

[Finder]

9. I agree

Monotheistic Religion and feminism are like oil and water. Although, as I stated elsewhere, Pagan and UU are very compatible.IMO+

[trotsky]

3. Mutually exclusive.

Though Wicca and earth religions predate the "big three" monotheistic religions, so in a way, they would be the "traditional" religions, wouldn't they? And certainly one can be a Wiccan and a feminist.

I'm an atheist, though, so I'm going to be hard-pressed to find much of value in religion.

[efhmc]

5. So those who are followers of relgions are not real feminists? Doesn't

being a feminist mean believing that all people are equal? How does the preclude being religious if your religion practices that ideal?

[trotsky]

6. The key word you used is "traditional."

And by that, I assume you meant the major sects of the big three religions - Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

All three are patriarchal in nature, and even liberal versions of them have a tough time escaping that.

[Finder]

8. Wicca was started by a male...

I do think most pagan religions are compatible with feminism however.

[trotsky]

10. Hey, I learned something today.

Here I thought Wicca was itself one of the old earth religions.

Turns out it's just loosely modeled on them, and heavily adapted from Victorian-era occult stuff. Interesting.

And I agree with you about pagan religions.

[beam me up scottie]

7. Here are some quotes from one of my heroes.

Elizabeth Cady Stanton (1815-1902)
American feminist and social reformer

"When women understand that governments and religions are human inventions; that bibles, prayer-books, catechisms, and encyclical letters are all emanations from the brain of man, they will no longer be oppressed by the injunctions that come to them with the divine authority of "thus saith the Lord." "
-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, quoted from Thomas S. Vernon, Great Infidels, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

"The Bible teaches that woman brought sin and death into the world, that she precipitated the fall of the race, that she was arraigned before the judgment seat of Heaven, tried, condemned and sentenced. Marriage for her was to be a condition of bondage, maternity a period of suffering and anguish, and in silence and subjection, she was to play the role of a dependent on man's bounty for all her material wants, and for all the information she might desire.... Here is the Bible position of woman briefly summed up."
-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton (attributed: source unknown)

"The memory of my own suffering has prevented me from ever shadowing one young soul with the superstitions of the Christian religion."
-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Eight Years and More (1898), p. 26

"The religious superstitions of women perpetuate their bondage more than all other adverse influences."
-- Elizabeth Cady Stanton, from Laird Wilcox and John George, eds., Be Reasonable: Selected Quotations for Inquiring Minds, quoted from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief

[Solly Mack]

11. I find "traditional" religion to be the enemy of women

as such, I can not reconcile a relationship with said religion to be in any way beneficial to women.

If you're religious and are now offended by my opinion, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to offend, it's just how I see it.

[Chovexani]

12. I think they're mutually exclusive

At least, organized religion. I support women who are making strides for equality in these faiths, but I really don't understand why they stay in them. I don't mean that in a bashing way, I'm serious, I just don't get it. I used to be a born again Christian until I realized beating my head against the wall only left me with a big lump.

Most organized religions, at least the "Big Three", are inherently sexist because they start from the assumption God is male (or, even if they believe God has masculine and feminine attributes, God is almost always seen as a paternalistic figure). I think any time you have a hierarchical system that is set up by men, it's going to be anti-woman by its very nature. It's that nasty "power-over" model that seems to go hand-in-hand with sexism.

Most people don't know it, but early Christianity was very loosely organized and very egalitarian, and the average Christian group looked more like a modern Pagan grove. The problem was when the Paulines ran roughshod over the others and forced their views on Christendom as a whole. I often wonder how different Western Civilization would be if the Paulines hadn't "won" (we wouldn't be arguing over women priests, that's for sure!).

[Senior citizen]

13. I think some religions are moving closer to feminism.

And I think they might actually arrive at it someday, I just don't personally happen to have another 5,000 years to wait.

They'd need to do more that admit females to all previously exclusively-male held offices, and adopt language reforms--they'd have to jettison all sexist texts and traditions.

And they'd have to stop being primarily about marrying people off.

I was listening to PBS news today about an Egyptian female who is bringing a lawsuit against a movie star for fathering their child but not recognizing or supporting it. And it was interesting that they mentioned how "family values" groups were protesting, because they believed that males should not have to support children born out of wedlock just because DNA shows that they fathered them. In other words, family values means restricting "legitimacy," support, and inheritance, to kids born into a marriage recognized by their religion. So family values means that so long as a male supports the children he fathers by his wife, he doesn't have to support any other children he may father. That sounds less like values than like a license for profligacy and irresponsibility to me.

[geniph]

16. The whole "family values" thing is about property

women and children as wholly-owned chattels of the prosperous males. They'd really like to own the less-prosperous males, too, but our society's not set up quite as well to permit that openly.

Decode a lot of "family values" rhetoric, and you'll get to the meat of it - women should be submissive to their fathers until they're sold to their husbands, at which time they should be submissive to their husbands. They are expected to provide sons (the daughters are irrelevant) to their husbands, and should their husbands die before they do, they're expected to be submissive to their sons.

Children are likewise expected to be submissive to their parents. It's all about property. "Family values" is nothing but code for this. They don't actually support families that look like the ones the majority of us live in, families where there's a mother and children, GLBT families, blended families where the parents have divorced and remarried, because none of those fit their model of ownership.

[cally]

14. I think you can be a feminist and religious

Many churches have active women pastors, have changed the image of God to be genderless, and have recaptured herstory of all the active female religious leaders in early times. No question that the three large religions are based on patriarchy but I have seen tremendous change. One of my pastors, since moved on from my church, taught me much about feminism and it's roll in Christianity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. Same here

The revolution in both the Episcopal and ELCA Lutheran churches within my lifetime has been amazing.

When I was growing up, girls couldn't even be acolytes and women couldn't serve on governing bodies such as church councils or parish vestries. Now both denominations have women clergy and, at least in the case of the Episcopalians (I'm not up to date on the Lutherans) women bishops.

My own parish has never-married single mothers, gay and lesbian couples, and even a transgendered rock musician.