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KO RIPPED OFF MY RESEARCH and did not credit it... for the 2nd time!!!

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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 09:38 AM
Original message
KO RIPPED OFF MY RESEARCH and did not credit it... for the 2nd time!!!
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 09:40 AM by Julius Civitatus
This is not cool at all. Keith Olbermann ripped off my research, claimed it was his.

Yesterday KO had "his" report on fake terror alerts again, the same one he first issued last winter. This report "borrows," just about all the research leg work we did on this matter. We parsed news items between 2001 and 2004 to come to the conclussions of our study: most terror alerts did not respond to real "threats", but political reasons.

The only part of KO report that was truly his, was teh terror alter of 2005. We did all this research and posted it in my blog 2 years ago this month. Only about 10 or 15% of the Countdown report was truly his.

This is the second time Olbermann "borrows" all my research for his show without even mentioning the source. I mean, it's almost verbatim, item by item, what I posted in my blog:

http://juliusblog.blogspot.com/2004_08_01_juliusblog_ar...

Not cool, people. Not cool at all.

:-(

Last winter, when he first aired "his" report without a mere mention of our study, I email Keith Olbermann about it. I very politely explained to him this was not right. I even gave him the benefit of the doubt, saying maybe one of his staffers stole the research from my site and claimed it was his own to gain some favor.

I explained I don't mind him using my stuff as long as he was honest and mentioned where he got all this work. We did all the leg work here, lots and lots of time parsing through the news from 2001 to 2004, and posted tons of research and findings on the fake terror alerts.

He never even replied to me.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
1. We also added a graphic to visualize the timely terror alerts
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 09:42 AM by Julius Civitatus
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. Surely, you're not the only person to come up with this info.
And unless you're copyrighted, anything's fair game.

But seriously, Countdown has a staff of at least 60 people. Don't you think it might be possible that someone else did the same work that you did, and came to the same conclusions? It's all in the public record. And if I recall correctly, Keith was calling bullshit on these terror alerts long before last winter.

Remember when Howard Dean called bullshit on the terror alerts, right after the Dem Convention? Keith was all over that part, asking questions back then. From what I've briefly seen of your blog, that means Keith was asking the questions before you were.

And really, ultimately, what does it matter? I'd think you'd be thrilled that at least one journalist was willing to present the case, and ask the hard questions of the administration. Who else on TV is doing that?
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. That's wrong in so many ways
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 10:51 AM by Julius Civitatus
Where to start?

  • Anything you publish on your own blog is your intellectual property. There's a huge "copyright" sign at the bottom of every page in my blog, just in case this wasn't clear enough. Ripping off the same bloggers he claims to like and support seems to me contradictory and hypocritical.
    That is not fair game. Some people may even call it plagiarism.

  • Should I be all happy that a big-time media figure plagiarized my work, almost word-by-word? You wouldn't be so jolly if it happened to you. These things matter.

  • While KO may have mentioned some doubts or displeasure at the timely terror alerts, he didn't make a report about until October 2005. Interestingly enough, he cites the same examples and sources I use, one by one. Come on now!
I do like his show and watch it often, although I don't have the teenage fan attitude you seem to profess about KO. This guy makes lots of money in a big network, and it is not right to take the work of left-of-center blogs, the same ones that have promoted his show for years, and rip it off without attribution.

It's not fair.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Hey, you're the one whining in the KO group.
What did you expect? Accolades? :eyes:

I'm sorry you seem to think you were treated unfairly. Maybe you need to take it up with the lawyers at MSNBC. Bringing it here to "the teenage fan" site isn't going to accomplish anything but animosity... and it ain't gonna be directed at Keith.
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. actually, another DUer sent Julius over here, thinking
that perhaps one of us might have inside access to someone at Countdown.

Copyright exists from the time a work is created and a notice need not be attached for protection to apply. That said, the content is question is essentially a dateline of highly public events, so it's entirely possible that the staff at MSNBC constructed their own timeline independently. Since KO hasn't been reticent about crediting other bloggers, I'm thinking that's the case. As outraged as J.C. is, it sounds very much like "they stole my script!" which is an old, old story in Hollywood and a lot of the time that's not what happened.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. You said that much nicer than I did.
But seriously, you don't go into a DU group and attack the topic of the group. That's why people get defensive.
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I know how to make choux pastry and you don't.
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 11:58 AM by gkhouston
Learn. It's easy. }(


with great pastry comes great tranquility.
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CC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm not sure he
stole your work, though both are similar. Course it would be since we all (at least here) draw the same conclusions from the same incidents. He had been questioning the nexus of politics and terror for a long time before he put together the videos last year (same as this years). Most of the alerts he comments on in this story he commented on at the time. Specially the NYC ones. He tends to take those personally and with reason so I think they stick in his mind.
If you do feel he took it on purpose or even by mistake try snail mailing or calling MSNBC but keep it calm and business like. As far as I know no one here has an in that would get to through any easier. Even if he didn't get it from you he might mention you at a future date.


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Catchawave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
9. Julius !
Crikey, I just posted my GD/journal/thingy here on another thread, from KO's transcript, from yesterday....

I send about a dozen DU threads to Countdown@msnbc.com every week from the brilliant posts by, uh, DUers ! I know several other DUers do the same thing.

I'm just so glad we're all on the same page :hi:

Oh, and I have never had a response either, but I do get an auto-response !
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. The incidents you have to draw on are similar, they are all told simply
and matter-of-factly...is there any evidence here of a unique piece of knowledge, a special turn of phrase, that you used that he also did?

If you can point to several very convincing instances of that, you might have a case. Otherwise, it's going to be very hard to prove this is a case of anything other than your staff and his staff researching the same topic and drawing very similar conclusions.

And you may well be guilty of the fallacy that he says we all have to avoid when examining these incidents: the assumption that just because B followed A, that B was caused by A. Just because his report followed your blogging doesn't mean that he ripped off your blog. And it's not as if you were the only blogger or the only journalistic source doing this kind of research.

And if you're that concerned about the MSM ripping you off, then take a bold step. Go all the way. Stop blogging and become a paid journalist. You'll have more power in your corner that way. As it is, bloggers may hold the rights to what they publish, but those rights are harder to defend when you don't have a pack of lawyers behind you to back you up.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-15-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Ahem... they are not "similar"... they are THE SAME
Edited on Tue Aug-15-06 07:07 PM by Julius Civitatus
Just clearing that out. He (or his staffers) took our work for their report without attribution. Sure, there could be a remote chance their staffers researched all this without coming across my site and a study that we published 16 months before them. It's been cached on Google since 2004. Before Keith Olbermann aired "his" report, my study had been quoted and referred by (among others):

- Salon.com
- Joe Conason
- Bill Berkowitz
- Mother Jones magazine
- Air America radio

They all credited and mentioned the original study, and even linked to our blog. It's even polite to do so.

Within the first couple of days after we published it, we received over 200,000 unique hits. The study was around. I can't accept this whole KO thing would be a coincidence.

I agree becoming a professional journalist would be swell, but the market is a bit restricted and it's not so easy getting a job at NBC, for instance.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Excuse me?
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 05:42 PM by Julius Civitatus
Did you just call me a "troll"?
Why?
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. I don't know, but if you want to prove you have been ripped off
you have to present the evidence, not just say it's out there on the Internet and tell us we need to go look it up.

And if you really want to be a journalist, you'll work to break into the field. It can be done. Standing outside the world of mainstream journalism, claiming that mainstream journalists have "ripped you off" and whining about how UNFAAAAAIR it is, won't get you professional respect.

At long last, if you had the skill to do this story that you claim has been ripped off whole cloth, you have the skill to do more. Go out and do more and get hired by someone because you have the capability to do it.

One of your problems is you're acting like this is the only precious piece of journalism you had in you and now it's gone. If you're a real journalist, you can keep reporting, and you can do it for someone who'll not only credit you but pay you, and will also protect you from being "ripped off" as you claim you have been.

You want credit? Prove you can play with the big boys. Until you do, as a blogger you will always be suspected of being someone who is only playacting, and while some legit journalism sources may credit you, others will not.

One more question: If your stuff was used by so many other sources, how come you don't know Olbermann used them, and credited them? Oh, and did you come up with 13 incidents, like he did on his blog?
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. It's very simple
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 08:22 PM by Julius Civitatus
See Olbermann's report, then read my study. Or viceversa. Mine was done two years ago.
You'll see the similarities, case by case, example by example he uses. I mean, our study reads like a script for KO's report on the fake terror alerts, only written about 16 months earlier.

And Olbermann did not credit me, or any the other journalists that used and referred to my work.

One thing that bothers me about your comments, besides your incredible contempt for bloggers in general, is that you seem to excuse the fact that a big media player can take the work of a blogger without proper attribution, and we should just shut up because we are not a big media personality like he is. Is it because Olbermann is on our side? I recently saw people in these boards raising hell over the fact that Ann Coulter ripped off other authors, articles and bloggers without attribution in her latest excuse for a book.
I don't know, but I'm starting to get a sense of selective outrage since I've been posting about this matter, a matter which I consider unfair to me and to Biltud. So when Coulter plagiarizes other authors and bloggers without crediting them it's bad. But when Olbermann makes a report that seems taken step-by-step from my study (and for evidence, the post is right there in the links I posted for anyone to see), then I should shut up and be grateful that Olbermann (or a cunning staffer) took it? Furthermore, that makes me "suspect to be a troll"?

Nice.

I see the consistency in these arguments.

But you may be right. Maybe instead of commenting on these matters here I should study this matter with a lawyer.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Why are you bringing your argument to the KO teenage fan site?
I'd think you'd get better response in GD or somewhere else. Here, you're preaching to the choir that the pastor's a thief. Did you really expect we'd suddenly rally behind you?

Seriously, if you want sympathy, take it somewhere else.
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Julius Civitatus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. As they already explained, someone else sent me here
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 08:38 PM by Julius Civitatus
Since KO or his producer did not respond to me or to Biltud, someone in another thread suggested I post here to see if someone knew how to contact KO directly, or if anyone ever got a reply from him. As I have mentioned from the beginning, I suspect this may the case of one of his staffers copying my stuff to look good or get promoted, who knows. I've seen stuff like this before in the academic world.

But yes, as you say, "teenage fanclub" indeed!

:eyes:

Fine, I get it.
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Kire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. You should have done some independent research before posting here.
Edited on Wed Aug-16-06 09:04 PM by Kire
Like reading the mission statement.

Maybe if you asked us if anybody had contacts instead of shouting to the rooftops about how KO ripped you off, then you would have a better experience.

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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. Don't let the door hit ya.
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WolverineDG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. Let's see
You come in here throwing a temper tantrum & calling names, accusing Keith of plagiarism & "stealing" your work, get a negative response from us & it's OUR FAULT? **WE'RE** the teenagers? Get a grip. :eyes:

You apparently had the same idea & were doing the same research that many people were doing about the same time. Unless you can prove that Keith or one of his staff had their eyeballs on your work, they didn't "steal" it from you. Also, only complaining about it months after it happened instead of the usual net-savvy response of seconds & minutes seems a bit suspicious to me. YMMV

dg
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gkhouston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-17-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. actually, JC complained about it the first time, too.
and I visited his blog (you know, the one that's had so many hits that KO must have seen it, yet is so small that he felt he didn't have to credit it the way he does other blogs... would that make it a 2 bedroom, 1.5 bath blog?) for the first time and saw that there were similarities but it wasn't the obvious case of plagiarism that JC is so certain has taken place. People do independently come up with similar ideas and given all the skepticism that's been floating around for years about the terror alerts, it's hardly surprising that a time-line correlating terror alerts with public events would be one of them. A lack of uniqueness doesn't detract from the quality of the work JC did, but to imagine that only he could have thought of it is hubris.
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Berry Cool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-18-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Question to Julius
If your research is two years old, how can he possibly have ripped it off whole cloth and added nothing to it that was not yours? His research and reporting includes events that hadn't yet happened two years ago.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-16-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
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