Native American? The tribe says no

[Waya]

Native American tribes are facing allegations of greed and racism as they purge members from their rolls and deny the applications of others.
The expulsions have sent tremors through Indian country. Thousands of Native Americans have lost their cultural identities and access to tribal benefits, such as medical care, housing and education. Certain gaming tribes divide casino profits among members, in some cases thousands of dollars a month per person. Those expelled lose their cut.

Tribal officials say they're protecting legitimate members by making sure everyone in the tribe is qualified.

As sovereign nations, tribes have the final say in who can — and cannot — join. Each tribe determines what degree of Indian blood is necessary for membership, a requirement that varies among the 561 federally recognized tribes.

In California, at least 2,000 Native Americans have been taken off the rolls of their tribes since 1999, says Laura Wass, executive director of the Many Lightnings American Indian Legacy Center, an education and advocacy group in Fresno. Disenrollments have surged with the rise of Indian casinos, she says.......


More:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-11-28-tribes-cover_x.htm

[itsmesgd]

1. greed or legitimate protection

Is this a movement tied to the greed of the "casino- natives" or the protection of tribes from those people seeking to claim tribal status as a means to get at some of the tribal money and other resources?

[Waya]

2. Good question.......

.....however, it does seem that disenrollment rises in direct prportion to casino revenue....of course, that could be coincidence - right? Right! :-(

[CountAllVotes]

3. The Cherokee Nation is purging loads off the Final Dawes Rolls

They are purging all "Freedmen" from the Final Dawes Rolls I heard because they are of African descent. How is that for RACISM? They claim that they have never recognized African's as being Cherokee (even though they kept them as slaves and yes, they bred with them too no doubt).

I found this really shocking and the claim is that this is a tribal tradition and that they have never accepted person's of African descent as being Cherokee even though many were on the Trail of Tears and do appear on the rolls. :mad:

Good topic btw!

:kick:

[chena]

4. heh

you can't just look at superficial things and make proclamations based from them.

is removing freedmen racism? perhaps. but there's a lot more to it than just the matter of them being black.



it's the fact that they cannot prove lineage. i believe the cherokees were *forced* to include freedmen on their rolls to begin with. now, it may just be that they are correcting the situation that was forced upon them.

did you think to look at it that way?


i'm not saying there isn't racism involved, but neither am i saying there is as you are quick to do here. there's just more to it than that.



and when you have the largest tribal nation in the country, and no real casino profits or much other enterprise, your dollars are pretty thin and getting thinner all the time stretched out to so many people. why should the cherokee or any other nation still be forced to accept those who aren't of descent or accepted by them?

ever think this might be a way for the united states to dump one of its perceived problems onto another of its perceived problems (indians)?



the cherokee have mixed black members by the way, so that isn't the issue..........

[CountAllVotes]

5. here is the debate as it stood in August 2006

<snip>Descendents of Freedmen President Marilyn Vann wants Cherokee citizens to know who the Freedmen are and what they want.

The Oklahoma City resident is organizing and attending area meetings to inform Cherokee citizens about what citizenship means to Freedmen.

She said the Freedmen want to retain citizenship rights they have had for more than 140 years, and many of them have Indian blood with the documents to prove it.

"Freedmen for the most part are Cherokee people who had rights before by treaty and under the 1975 and 1999 constitutions," she said. >

http://www.cherokee.org/home.aspx?section=phoenix&ID=Auv59ngcDXQ=

Proving it? Good luck is what I say. I have at least 3 direct ancestors that appear on these rolls but I cannot prove they are my relatives even though I know who they are. I don't want anything from the tribe personally but I believe that any Freedmen that were recognized should remain as recognized members of the Cherokee tribe.

It is difficult if not impossible to prove tribal membership because they are using the Final Dawes Rolls taken almost 100 years after the Trail of Tears. Who is anyone to say "who" is legitimate and who is not? Anyone could and can be questioned.

What this is is a big mess and I do not believe it is fair if Freedmen previously recognized as tribal members should now be dismissed.

[Broken_Hero]

6. I don't buy that...

This part, I don't buy

"and when you have the largest tribal nation in the country, and no real casino profits or much other enterprise, your dollars are pretty thin and getting thinner all the time stretched out to so many people. why should the cherokee or any other nation still be forced to accept those who aren't of descent or accepted by them?"

The dollars are not thin...the dollars are thin, because the indians in power, are effected with certain degree's of greed, and like their power in their tribal government scheme. The Freedman to me, shouldn't be the issue, the issue should be blood quantum, and putting that quantum back into place...I have seen WAY more white people, with a drop of cherokee blood with CDIB cards, than I have Freedman...I've met 6 freedman, and 1,000 upon 1,000 of white cherokee's who have 1/389434803948th drop of cherokee blood. Whats makes it worse, is that these white indians don't help promote the Cherokee tribe, but use the tribe for health care, or other percieved benefits.

If they are worrried about their membership, I say, start back with a blood quantum...but then the cherokee would shrink in number, and lose federal dollars. As for the casino's that the Cherokee have in Oklahoma...they are making profits, hand over fist...yet, a good portion of their members, are suffering because of mediocre health care...but of course, Chad Smith/and his wife are driving around in their nice cars.....just my .02 cents.

on edit:to clarify

[chena]

7. .

-This part, I don't buy

"and when you have the largest tribal nation in the country, and no real casino profits or much other enterprise, your dollars are pretty thin and getting thinner all the time stretched out to so many people. why should the cherokee or any other nation still be forced to accept those who aren't of descent or accepted by them?"

The dollars are not thin...the dollars are thin, because the indians in power, are effected with certain degree's of greed, and like their power in their tribal government scheme.




no. the fact is, the cherokee nation and other groups which don't have huge enterprises at their disposal still have difficulties providing a lot of services for their people. sometimes numbers can assist. often they can be a detriment, because there may be only a set number of dollars to go around.


and there's nothing to buy or not buy about tribal sovereignty. either one supports it (even when exercised wrongly) or they don't.



-The Freedman to me, shouldn't be the issue, the issue should be blood quantum, and putting that quantum back into place...I have seen WAY more white people, with a drop of cherokee blood with CDIB cards, than I have Freedman...I've met 6 freedman, and 1,000 upon 1,000 of white cherokee's who have 1/389434803948th drop of cherokee blood. Whats makes it worse, is that these white indians don't help promote the Cherokee tribe, but use the tribe for health care, or other percieved benefits.




that may be true, but that's the tribe's issue to deal with. happens to a lot of peoples, and sometimes in reverse order though.

blood quantum, if anything, just needs to be kept out. if anything were to be interjected back into the process it should be traditional means of identifying who's who. to cherokee, that'd be those born to cherokee mothers only. i know some people who still operate by this means to identify even their own family as being of the tribe or not. blood quantum was never anyone's way, not that i know of.........


shit, cherokees and a lot of other tribes have had blacks and whites as citizens for a long time, and to many of us whose nations operated that way, those whites and blacks or whatever were just as (fill in blank with tribe here) as any of those who'd been born that way.




-If they are worrried about their membership, I say, start back with a blood quantum...but then the cherokee would shrink in number, and lose federal dollars. As for the casino's that the Cherokee have in Oklahoma...they are making profits, hand over fist...yet, a good portion of their members, are suffering because of mediocre health care...but of course, Chad Smith/and his wife are driving around in their nice cars.....just my .02 cents.

on edit:to clarify




well that might be true, particularly about chad smith...... i'll leave that alone.

even being "hand over fist," it's still not a whole lot when the 200,000+ people are taken into account and the needs of the government.

[chena]

8. .

just read this article today, will help clarify the fiscal situation a little:


http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061207_Ne_A15_Chero46746



the cherokee nation is expanding a casino. however, the current operation only nets 80 million dollars a year.


this figures out to less than $400 per person, if they had per capitas, or even just in general. factoring in costs of providing services, this ain't shit.



dollars are thin.

[Broken_Hero]

9. I don't buy the thin dollars argument...

its greed, plain and simple...its only thin for the people who need it...

http://www.chadsmith.com/impact.htm

"Cherokee Nation operates on a budget of more than $200 million a year. Eighty three percent of the budget is federally funded and appropriated to more than one hundred different programs and services on behalf of Cherokee citizens. Seventeen percent of the budget is Tribally generated and goes to the General Fund for the operation of Cherokee Nation government."


200 million plus, for 230,000 members...is a bit more than 400 dollars per tribal member....plus whatever profits it garners from its Casinos, granted 18 percent or so of their budget is from the Cherokee's own pockets...

The Cherokee can do a lot of good, if they choose to...its just the ones in control don't do much of anything, except erect new casino's to fatten their own pockets. I see the poverty, and depression of Cherokee nations actions, and its saddening to see a good portion of its people, being cast to the side.

I wish Cherokee Nation would follow in the path of the Ho-Chunks from Wisconsin, that tribe knows how to take care of its own(from what I've seen)....

[chena]

11. .

was just addressing the casino component alone, which folks like to imagine makes tribes insta-millionaires.

the tribe otherwise has a "typical" budget across the board, and that's never been enough.......



200 million divided among that number is still very little.


the other parts of your argument may be true, but dollars are still thin.

[Broken_Hero]

10. I disagree, blood quantum is a necessary evil....

This is basically what I think of blood quantum...


Blood Quantum, the circle of proving if you are American Indian, is a circle in which was created, when American Indians started getting benefits from past treaties/agreements from the Federal Government. I don't know how many times, I have been asked, "So, what do I get if I can prove i'm American Indian?" That question, burns me so badly, and yet I have heard it countless times. That question, I believe is one of the reasons why Blood Quantum has to be upheld, to keep out the "idiots" who just want to prove they are Indian, so they can get, or achieve some percieved "benefit."

If you throw Blood Quantum out the window, I think, we will finally have universal health care for the whole United States, because by what standard will be used to determine if you are American Indian? Descendancy? Cherokee Nation in Tahlequah, Ok is a prime example of how lax blood quantum can be taken advantage of. When I go to Claremore Hospital in Oklahoma, I see people pulling up in Escalades, and a wide assortment of upper "tier" vehicles, and yet, they cannot afford better health care? I see, predominately "white indians" who take advantage of the lax blood quantum of cherokee nation, and is that fair? I say, it isn't.

Example: My wife's aunt, broke her wrist 6 yrs ago, and she attempted to have her wrist fixed by surgery at Claremore Indian Hospital, but Cherokee Nation denied her, because she lived out of state, she lived in Missouri. They denied, a full blooded cherokee, who could speak her language, who attends stomp dances, and lives her culture...and yet, and yet??? Cherokee Nation allows millionaires, to abuse their system,

Example: My friend Tom, who is Osage, had a computer business, which he sold to his business partner. After Tom sold his part of his business, he ran into his friend at Claremore, and Tom asked, "what the hell are you doing here? His friend replied "I'm here, with my wife who broke her leg, and they are fixing her up." Tom replied "Bud, you are a millionaire, I know how good your business is doing, and how much of what I sold you was worth, so, why are you here, of all places, you know IHS isn't all that." His friend replied "It's free." and he walked off....

Now, is their something wrong with this picture? BTW, I forgot to mention his friend, was 1/260th cherokee(who never participated in his culture)...is their something wrong with this picture? A full blooded cherokee woman, swept aside over a inane technacality, and Cherokee Nation providing health care to a white millionaire? I say hell freaking yes. If Indians, recieved no "benefits" from the Federal Government, I believe the roles of Cherokee Nation wouldn't have grown at all, or any tribes for that matter, but Cherokee Nation is the whipping boy of Blood Quantum debates. It seems to me, through my travels and experience encounter people who only want to prove they are "indian" to get some percieved benefit, and if that "benefit" wasn't there, I believe the whole Blood Quantum issue would be just about non-existant.

In my travels, and life experience, I have only come across maybe, 2, or 3 people who were(at least to me) truly interested in their Indian heritage, and paid no mind to what "benefits" awaited them if they got their CDIB card. And I have encountered over hundreds, hundreds of people who ask "what do i get if i can prove i am?" This scenario, i believe is why Blood Quantum needs to be enforced.

I can also, see the other side of the coin. Its hard for me to begrudge anyone health care, because of race or any factor, I'm of the mind, everyone should have healthcare. I wouldn't turn anyone away, my heart cannot turn away anyone in need...but my heart would be "awfully" tempted to turn away a millionaire, who abuses the IHS system, because he is too cheap to have another provider. I know a lot of Indians who would turn him away in a heart beat, but my heart is a bit bigger... :) It makes no sense to me, and that millionaire example is not the only one either....Abuses of the system, happen by all sorts of different parties.

I have inlaws in Grove Oklahoma, who get commodoties, and when they get them, they throw them in the garbage...yes, reread that sentence, you read it right the first time. I got inlaws in Grove, who get commodoties, and they throw them away. Does this make any sense to you? It makes zero sense to me. These inlaws are all half, to full blooded cherokee's, and they throw their commodoties away. I have asked them "why get them, if you are just going to throw them away?" The response I get from 99% of my inlaws..."I get them, because its mine, and I can do whatever I want with it." The point of this example, is to show, that even full blooded Indians, can act like complete and idiotic fools...but, I think it also ties in with the white millionaire, maybe, just maybe he thought "it was what was owed him too?" Its a question worth thinking on....

That in a nutshell, is the response I get. Now, is that a brain teaser or what? I get them, cause they are mine, so I can throw them away? While countless Indian families are below the poverty line, while FAS, and the education of our Indian children is in jeopardy, and yet, there are Indians who think, that the commodities they get are a "given gift of whats owed"...the abuses of the system, are on both sides.

The behavior of American Indians is truly bizzare in some cases, and I'm sure quite a few of you, have similiar stories, or experiences, or maybe not... :) But, i'm off point again dammit! Back to Blood Quantum...

I have seen "white indians" act more indian than full blooded ones, damn, I'm only 1/5th Haida, and its only because i'm a direct descedant from a 1/4 or higher Haida(mother), that I have a CDIB card. If i married a non-indian woman, my child would not be able to claim Haida, and get a CDIB card by the Blood Quantum standard, albiet i would raise him/her as a "Haida" and my child would learn about the culture. When my wife and I have a child, he/she will be a a Keetowah Band Cherokee, their blood quantum is 1/4 or more, but again, I would raise them as a Haida as well...

Blood Quantum, I see as necessary evil of sorts, to keep the "idiots" who want to prove they are indian, to get a percieved "benefit."

******

Cherokee nations does have a good handful of enterprises to draw from, and in fact, they flush some of those helping hands down the proverbial toilet. My wife works for a big corporation, and she has tried numerous times to get her company to help out Cherokee Nation and The Keetowah Band Cherokee...the Keetowahs have met with my wife's company and they have thrived...and what did Chad Smith do? He, nor any of his buds even put forth effort...they tossed aside a helping hand, ready to donate millions to their cause...

IMO, until Chad Smith and his cronies get voted out, I think Cherokee Nations is in for a bumpy ride...and lets not forget what Wilma Mankiller did either...money/power corrupts, and its sad that many cherokee who need their help/money are forgotten in the daily hussle...