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What's the standard for page width these days?

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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-10-05 07:48 PM
Original message
What's the standard for page width these days?
Hundreds of years ago, when the web was young :) the standard width for was 590 pixels -- 'cuz monitors were so tiny.

Has that changed, now that the typical screen size is so much bigger?



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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 01:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. I tend to build for 800x600
Edited on Fri Mar-11-05 01:04 AM by GregD
and use a table size of 768. That seems to prevent horizontal scrolling, unless the browser is really low-res. Sometimes my outer table may be larger than that, but make a few tests and see what works for you.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-11-05 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Tables?!?!?!
Who uses tables for layout anymore? CSS can do the same thing, while at the same time being friendlier to a wider range of browsers. I don't think I've done a tabled site in about five years (and I've developed about 40 sites in that time).

For the OP: According to my logs and tests on a number of sites, the majority of users today are running 1024x768 (default res on most new computers), but there's still a significant number of users (maybe 25%) who are at 800x600. Less than 5% of browsers are still at 640x480, and about the same are at 1280x1024 and above. The parent poster was right...if you are doing a fixed width site, you should target between 760 and 768.

Or do like I do...write the page in CSS and set your width to a percentage of the screen width. I don't know why, but fixed width pages have always annoyed me. Sites that fit the entire screen take a bit more though to develop, but don't waste valuable screen space.
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Yes, a lot of people use tables.
As we discussed privately, I found your response a bit abrupt and arrogant. Where you may be a utopian and purist as you put it, I'm a pragmatist (in many aspects of life.) Regardless, I'm open to learning new strategies with technology, and have spent my career doing just that...

I find that the online references on CSS in terms of how to use the full capabilities of CSS to be lacking. has never proven to me an effective resource for thoroughly learning such strategies as using CSS for layout, although perhaps I've just not had the patience to read that entire site. It just seems too great a burden to dig through everything there, or perhaps the structure and/or examples just are not working for me.

I have found that using CSS exclusively (not only for font styling but for actual page layout) goes beyond what I've been interested in tackling for most sites. Many of the applications I use (such as shopping carts) are based on tables. I'm certainly not interested in migrating those to the "purist style". And since there was not an adequate reference to learn all the fine points of what browsers play nice, and which need this or that tweak, I just take the easy route and retain tables, which I find eminently manageable.

For example, I occasionally encounter stylesheets on sites I visit which include some self-declared style which is inserted into the .css as a bug-fix for some particular issue. Where does one locate a reference a solid cross reference of identified bugs, and how one overcomes those in a manner that works reliably.

With that said, I'm open to your thoughts. I'm interested in knowing how you (as an educator/purist) feel is the best way to overcome the learning curve that is necessary to completely do away with tables.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I think that you're making it too hard on yourself.
Edited on Tue Mar-15-05 02:03 PM by Xithras
Most people that I've taught CSS actually have a pretty simple time of it once they get the basic concept down.

At its core, CSS positioning revolves around the DIV tag. DIV is short for DIVIDER, and the DIV tag does what that name implies...it divides the page up into a series of boxes. CSS-P is simply the way to define the properties of those boxes...width, height, background colors, positions relative to each other or the browser window, even whether or not you want to stack them on top of each other. CSS positioning is simply the art of stacking boxes.

My personal method for page design is as simple as it is old fashioned. I figure out what I want the page to LOOK like first, and then sketch it onto a piece of paper (you can prototype any way you're comfortable with, but I prefer paper). Too many people get this step backwards. They want to jump into the CSS, start coding the look of the page, and complain when the resulting look isn't as professional as they'd like. Design first, THEN figure out how to make that design real through CSS. When the prototyping is done, I take a few copies and start carving the design apart by pen, dividing it into it's element boxes. When I come up with a box design that will allow the structure I want, I give each box a name and work out the basics...i.e. "Box A holds the header logo and is 768 pixels wide. It's at the very top of the page and should be 90 pixels tall." That way, when I start writing the initial CSS I'll already know what elements I need and roughly what its properties should be.

As to the learning curve, all languages have learning curves so there will be some trial and error, but I have yet to meet one developer who didn't think that the CSS transition was worthwhile after completing it. That said, I completely agree that the W3 CSS docs are horrible for beginners. While there may be http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Guide/Style">some reasonably written tutorial content on their site, it certainly isn't a great place to start. It's references are better suited to people who have a handle on basic CSS and are looking to improve their knowledge.

One resource that I recommend is at W3Schools: http://www.w3schools.com/css/. If you're not familiar with it, W3Schools has some of the most approachable CSS tutorials on the Internet. While there are a lot of great resources, they'd be the first I'd recommend checking out. You'll have to ignore their constant attempts to sell you one of their certifications, but since that's the only cost to access their high quality tutorials, it's worth it.

As for hacks to deal with browser incompatibilities, I recommend first looking at http://www.quirksmode.org. This is the personal site of an extremely experienced CSS developer, and one who hates hacks. Rather that show you all the ways to break the rules to fix browser bugs, he shows you how to adapt your designs to work in all browsers AND validate when they're done. http://www.alistapart.com also has article archives covering most common CSS issues and non-hack ways to work around them (it's also a really great web resource in general).

As to true CSS hack sites; there aren't any good compilation sites, but a quick Google search typically brings up dozens dealing with just about every specific problem you could conceive of. One that popped up was http://www.sitepoint.com/article/browser-specific-css-hacks, which covered the most common workarounds in a short and easy to read tutorial.

And if you really question the value of CSS, take a look at http://www.csszengarden.com. As you click through the designs, realize that NOTHING in the page is changing other than the called CSS file. It really shows off the power and flexibility of CSS better than any other site on the Internet. Just to show you the practical value of this sort of thing, I personally have clients who want to redesign their websites once a year or so to keep them "fresh". I have clients with thousands of pages who have told me repeatedly that other web developers want thousands of dollars to redesign their site and rebuild it with a new design, and that the process would take months. I charge existing clients $499, take less than a week, and do it by updating a single CSS file. I turned these people into lifetime clients by offering them a service that nobody else wanted to offer (complete separation of design and content) at a price that nobody else was willing to match.
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-15-05 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I'm speechless...
My goodness, what masterpieces you demonstrate at http://www.csszengarden.com. They are nothing short of visual treats. I have much to study there. I'll be in touch if I may, after I've looked further at these great resources.

Thanks.
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-16-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Another great site
for learning very practical CSS tips, tricks and just all around better layout skills is http://www.alistapart.com
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-04-05 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. I use tables.
My whole site is based on them.

I'm an armature 'tho. I don't know how to use CSS.
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Zenlitened Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-13-05 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Thanks!
:) :hi:
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