*HORCRUX SPOILER THREAD*

[XemaSab]

In the interests of keeping the discussion tidy, I thought maybe we could discuss different aspects of the plot in different threads?

So who has a horcrux, and where (and what!) are the rest of Voldemort's horcruxes?

Thanks to TimeChaser, lildreamer316, Lavender Brown, Spider Jerusalem, dwickham, malmapus, intheflow, Lisa, lulu in NC, loudestchick, outraged2, realFedUp, ET Afful, Pithy Cherub, NothingWithoutHope, and mondo joe for providing the ideas here.

[XemaSab]

1. What happened to the locket? And who is RAB?

The prevailing suggestion for RAB is that it's Regulus Black, Sirius' brother. Whoever it was, the implication in the note was that it's a former Death Eater who has gone over to the other side. Regulus could have faked his own death, and may still be alive.

One or more of the Horcruxes may have been in the House of Black, and may have been mentioned in the chapter of Order of the Phoenix where they're cleaning the house. Someone from a non-DU site mentioned the locket that cannot be opened as a possible Horcrux, so the question is what happened to it?

Did Kreacher hide it or give it to the Malfoys or Bellatrix? Or did Mundungus steal it? Or is it still just sitting on the shelf in the drawing room? And if it's at Grimmauld Place, who else knows about it, and could the Death Eaters go and take it?

Or was the locket in fact a real horcrux that got swapped out at the last minute while Dumbledore was lying at the base of the tower?

[radfringe]

21. RAB and Horcruxes -- Snape and Dumbledore

RAB and Horcruxes
RAB could very well be Sirius's brother. In Order of the Phoenix - it went into detail about the Black family tree, and Sirius mentioned that Regulus Black wanted out of the death eaters

In Half-Blood Prince - remember that Harry has inherited Black's home/assests and it was mentioned that "what's-his-face" was stealing stuff out of the house to sell.

Rowlings doesn't throw details like that out unless they have some significance later on...

The set up for the last book is Harry has to find the Horucruxes (locket or whatever was in the locket) - but "what's-his-face" had unknowingly stole/sold it - so it's not just a matter of going through everything in the house and checking it out -- Harry has to track it down

---------------------

Snape and Dumbledore
just a theory - Dumbledore throughly trusted Snape, and probably most of us Screamed "NOOOOOOOO" when Snape killed Dumbledore...

:tinfoilhat: What if Dumbledore's death was a ruse? We don't really know what Dumbledore had on Snape and why he trusted Snape. We do know that Snape worked both sides - but the question of his real loyalty might still be up in the air.

What if after taking the Unbreakable Vow, and knowing about the plot to kill Dumbledore - Snape tells Dumbledore about it and they work out a plan to make it appear that Snape killed Dumbledore.

Remember during the "fight" - Snape deflects the spells Harry is throwing about. He could have just killed Harry outright instead of deflecting spells. So why didn't he take that opportunity to do so and throughly ingratiate himself to Voldemort?

At the funeral - there's just a closed casket - what if it was empty?

[XemaSab]

22. Rowling has said

That Dumbledore's dead.

Also, I don't think you can fake out an unbreakable vow.

Sorry.

[radfringe]

23. well - I did say it was tinfoil hat theory... :)

[XemaSab]

24. .

:tinfoilhat: :pals: :tinfoilhat:

I've dismissed far more plausible theories before that turned out to be right.

Cough cough lupin/tonks cough. :-)

[redsoxliberal]

25. RAB could be Amy Benson... with another first name

I doubt it, seeing as she is a muggle and all... but she had certainly been in the cave before... so she may have known what to do... and anyone can give blood.

[XemaSab]

2. What are some of Voldemort's other Horcruxes?

We know about the diary, the locket, and the ring, and we suspect Helga Hufflepuff's cup. What are some other objects mentioned that could be horcruxes?

Is Nagini a horcrux? What about the basilisk?

Is Harry a horcrux? What happens if Harry became a horcrux of Voldemort's when Voldemort killed his parents? Would that mean that he would have to die before Voldemort could be killed?

And does Harry's ability to posess Nagini mean that Harry has some of Voldemort's soul? What about Harry's ability to speak Parseltongue, and the Sorting Hat wanting to put him in Slytherin?

lulu in NC summarizes some of the questions well:

Though I said earlier I didn't think Harry could be a horcruxes,I'm beginning to wonder. Voldy DIDN'T seem to want or need to kill Lily, just wanted to get to Harry. BUT, why would Voldything implant part of his soul, knowing he'd have to kill it off later? The other horcuxes he keeps in very safe places, as if, at some point, he'd pull them out and re-incorporate them back into himself. Would he willingly give up a seventh of his soul? I'm just rambling, but the idea that Harry is a horcruxes is fascinating--would explain parseltongue, etc.

Could Voldemort have made Harry his equal by making him a horcrux, thereby fulfilling the prophecy?

Or could Voldemort have made Harry a horcrux accidentally?

And who did he kill to make his horcruxes? Harry's parents? His parents? Moaning Myrtle?

[outraged2]

6. I don't think that Harry is a horcrux

Harry's relationship to Voldemort seems too unpredictable. I mean no one, not even Dumbledore really understood the connection via the failed curse. And even Voldemort didn't realize until very late in the game that Harry was able to access his mind. I suppose it is possible that Harry was made a horcrux by accident, but it seems to me that the spell/encantation for a horcrux would be very involved and not easily done by accident.

<<And does Harry's ability to posess Nagini mean that Harry has some of Voldemort's soul?>>

I don't have any idea about what LV's relationship to Nagini, but Harry was seeing through the snake's eyes because that is where LV was at the moment (says Dumbledore)... Come to that, we don't know for sure that it was Nagini's eyes Harry was seeing through. Maybe LV is animagus in form of snake which might explain how he experienced Mr Weasley's attack via the connection.

[intheflow]

11. If Harry is a horcrux

then I think Voldemort would have done it intentionally. He liked to take significant items from his murders (Marvolo's ring, Hepzibah Smith's cup and locket). Perhaps LV thought to enslave Harry by making him a horcrux, as a trophy after killing James, but the curse backfired because Lily love-blocked the curse.

Of course there's always the possibility that either Peter Pettigrew could be a horcrux. The argument for PP would again be a trophy (for both PP and LV) that wet along with betraying the Lily and James. PP being a horcrux would explain LV's pet-owner attitude toward PP.

[Astarho]

12. I don't think so

Dumbledore said that those that would make a horcrux would be unlikely to put it in a living being because they could influence your soul. Since Voldemort liked being in control, I doubt he would put a piece of his soul in a position to be influenced by another, especially, the person the prophecy said is to be his greatest enemy.

[dhinojosa]

18. Harry's mark is the horcrux, not him himself....

that is why the sorting hat was able to feel part of slytherin in him because there is an extra soul in that mark.

My 2 cents. :)

[TimeChaser]

19. Now that

is interesting. Don't forget that the last word of book 7 is "scar" :)

[Lavender Brown]

3. Did Dumbledore tell Harry how to destroy the horcruxes before he died?

I forget.

[outraged2]

10. No I don't think so (nt)

[XemaSab]

4. What's the difference between being posessed and being a horcrux?

Namely, what about Ginny and Quirrel?

intheflow says:

Being possessed requires a whole spirit. That spirit controls your body, actions, and maybe even your brain. A human horcrux only would be only a partial soul, and it might not control your actions but be more like renting storage space. So maybe a better question would be: what's the difference between a soul and a spirit? :) ....in light of Ginny's possession in CoS via the diary horcrux, I can see how there might not be much difference between human horcruxes and possession.

[XemaSab]

5. Could Dumbledore have a horcrux?

Creating a horcrux is very dark magic, and it involves killing people, but it's been suggested that Dumbledore may have killed a few Death Eaters, thereby creating the means to create a horcrux.

Could the pain and remorse of killing provide the needed energy? If someone was good and was forced into killing another in defense, could not the pain and guilt offer the same result or a like spell with a less evil association?

And would Dumbledore be interested in immortality?

[outraged2]

8. Maybe doesn't have to be a 'horcrux' exactly

It wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that there is a light magic or positive way to acheive the same result.

[XemaSab]

7. Could Harry have a horcrux?

When Harry was attacked as a baby, two people died, so that would have provided the "energy" for two horcruxes.

Or do you have to actually kill someone yourself in order to make a horcrux?

Could Voldemort and Harry be each other's horcruxes? And what would that mean? How does that tie into the prophecy?

Could Harry have an object such as Griffindor's sword as a horcrux?

outraged2 says:

could Harry have a horcrux?

Possible but unlikely I think. Dumbledore emphasized the importance of having one's soul whole and the relationship between an intact soul and the power/protection of love.... LV survived because of the horcruxes and though there may be more to it, I believe Lily's love and sacrifice repelled Avada Kedavra much the same way Harry's capacity for love made it impossible for LV to possess him in OotP. I am open to other possibilities, but that's what I believe now.

[XemaSab]

9. What does the word "horcrux" mean?

XemaSab says:

>-crux = cross... easy enough.

>hor- is a bit trickier...

>horo= limit, boundary, season, time

>horre= dreadful, bristle, stand on end, tremble

>horre= storehouse


intheflow responds:

>According to Merriam-Webster online...

>Etymology: Latin cruc-, crux cross, torture

>1 : a puzzling or difficult problem : an unsolved question

>2 : an essential point requiring resolution or resolving an outcome (the crux of the problem)

>3 : a main or central feature (as of an argument)

>So etymologically, it could mean "horrible torture," which would match your "horre" root.

>But the idea of a storehouse is also intriguing. With M-W's 3rd definition for crux, taking the soul to be central to being, it might >mean "soul storehouse."

[Pithy Cherub]

13. Truly believe we are overlooking some crucial information.

The soul is an intergral part of the entire series. How one guards their own and what happens when you make bad choices.
Now for some hidden text to illustrate the point regarding where souls are featured in the books:

Harry's parents give up their lives (PS) to save Harry. Their essence is preserved in pictures and the Mirror of Erised. When Harry looks in the mirror he reflects loves. Meanwhile Quirrel dies and wasn't he a human horcrux - would he count as one of the 4 remaining?

In CoS Riddle put a part of his soul in the Diary as a horcrux. The age of the horcrux based on when the soul is split seems to be the time you make the horcrux. That explains why TR showed up in the Chamber and NOT Voldemort and the reason Ginny explained in writing in the diary what had been happening in the last 30 years.

Then POA, Dementors are Soul Eaters. Could a Dementor or the head dementor hold a horcrux for Voldybear?

In GoF, Voldemortis is restored to his body with Nagini's oversight and the blood of his enemy.

In OOtP, Nearly headless Nick explains about being to afraid to cross over so he's a ghost. It makes me wonder is the what Voldemort would choose as a last resort to be immortal?

And now how to round up the entire series, because in the end it will be Voldemort vs. Harry until Voldemort is down to his last fragment and Harry will have a whole soul.

Engarde! Peace be with you Harry!

[intheflow]

14. Very perceptive post.

7 is the perfect number, says Voldemort. So he fragments into 7 pieces, chronicled over 7 books, so that the totality of Harry's soul in the end matches the totality of the books in the series (the whole, not fragmented story). Veeeeeeery iiiiinteresting!

[Pithy Cherub]

15. Why thank you. Your clue about the 7 books is GREAT!

JKR is going to take us on a wild philosophical rollercoaster before she's done. Harry is having all of his beliefs and value systems tested and he still chooses to believe in goodness and redemption. Voldy, well its all about personal power and preservation of his power. The classical story with wonderful writing.

Now we wait, and while we wait we have time to discover more/deeper meanings and hidden clues...

[intheflow]

16. Interesting stuff about "7" and "soul" from the internets:

The Seven Stages:
http://www.iloveulove.com/psychology/psychspirit/sevenstages.htm

Seven Stages of Alchemical Transformation
http://www.deeptrancenow.com/exc3_7operations.htm

A Process Theory of Spiritual Transformation
http://tarotcanada.tripod.com/Individuation.html

The Seven Faces of the Soul:
http://www.lazaris.com/publibrary/pubsoul1.cfm

Although each of these unique pages has different labels for each of the seven steps they list, each step illustrates a transformation that I can correspond almost completely with Harry's journey in each of the 6 books thus far.

:hi:

[Twillig]

17. A possible Horcrux not yet given a punt:

Tom Riddle's award for "Special Services to Hogwarts."

Horcrux, Schmore-Crux. Destroy it anyway. :nuke:

[Mist]

20. Wow, good idea! In as much as Riddle has any nostalgic feelings

he would have them for Hogwarts, the place that taught him wizardry and took him out of the orphanage. He liked Hogwarts enough to want to stay and teach, so, yeah, one of his horcruxes may very well be at the school.