I need to vent: this is getting really offensive

[rockymountaindem]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1836692
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1836662

Apparently the people who shot a Jew in Seattle and attacked a Jewish library in Maryland with a Molotov Cocktail are just "letting off steam", and I should just deal with it and stop using the Holocaust as an "excuse" for my paranoia. :puke:

On edit: This reminds me of a thing I read about. Sergai Witte was the minister of Interior for Tsar Nicolas II (IMHO, Witte would have made a much better Tsar than the Tsar himself). After a Pogrom in Odessa which killed 800 Jews, he wrote in his memoirs "I recall that whenever I drew his attention to the fact that the anti-Jewish riots could not be tolerated, he was either silent or remarked, 'But it is they themselves, i.e. the Jews (His Majesty always used the opprobrious 'zhidy' ) that are to blame'". What now? Violence against Jews? It's because Israel is doing things they don't like. Sounds familiar to me. And these people say I'm paranoid when it's obvious they wouldn't lift a finger to stop this. Once they start rationalizing the actions of someone who would burn down a library, that much is clear.

[JI7]

1. i agree

i have been saying the same thing. a lot of people making excuses for bigots. how is it different from those who attacked and killed innocent Muslims after 9/11 ? it's just disgusting. i really can't stand certain people on here.

[JohnKleeb]

2. Didn't hear about what happened in Maryland

How can anyone defend throwing a Molotov Cocktail at someone just because the person was Jewish? I swear the far left is becoming just like the far right in how they view Jews. Have to say I saw a lot of Anti Semitic bullshit in those threads. There's too much hatred in the world and these fools are continuing it. I am going to say right here if it wasn't for you guys here I really think I'd be long gone from DU.

[Mass]

4. There has been some very antisemitic things posted on DU, but they

come from all sides, right, left, and center of DUers.

This crisis has divided DU along lines that are very revealing about people, but also very surprising considering where some people stood in the past. It would tend to show that antisemitism is certainly very spread and not about the extremes, even if it would be more simple to believe (too easy to make the far left the guilty party here).

I know I will offend some by not saying far left is evil (as I have offended a few by not saying any party in this conflict is evil), but frankly, I hate generalization and this is what DU has become: generalization.

[beachmom]

3. I'm pretty disgusted by DU and the far Left -- look at the Greatest Page

All "evil Israel" and "poor Lebanon". With few exceptions, there are ALWAYS two sides to a war and the conduct of its warriors. True, there are some nice liberal people in Lebanon, and it's just awful that their country is being destroyed, but Hizbollah basically operates a state within a state, and the only goal they have is the complete destruction of Israel. It's easy to judge from the relative safety of the U.S. on whether Israel has overdone it here, but when your entire existent is at stake (gee, not the first time), you must stand up and fight. Maybe I'm being politically incorrect around these parts, but I support Israel, although I am critical of them in certain actions that might have been overkill. I'm fed up with anti-semitism, and the Left attacking Israel while giving Hizbollah, a terrorist organization that prior to 9/11 had killed more Americans than any other group, a free pass.

[Mass]

5. There has been some really offensive posts on DU these last few

weeks.

Rationalization of violence is NEVER acceptable.

[beachmom]

6. Josh Marshall has a really good post, which better describes my

feelings, than my previous post:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/009318.php

He's talking about the "two conversations" -- one in reaction to the MSM and just what's happening over there (for which Josh is critical of Israel, as well as the * administration) and then there's the underground ugly conversation by lefties, quite frankly, who are virulently anti-Israel (for which Josh immediately rallies around his belief in Zionism -- the Israel state).

It makes one feel schizophrenic to both declare allegiance with Israel while being critical of their conduct of the war, but that's the best way to describe my feelings.

I will not be venturing into DU Main anytime soon -- to me they are just as bad as the Right in their blind hatred. It is just so disheartening to see in such a public way "The Longest Hatred" continuing -- from the Christianist Right, Mel Gibson's tirade and at the very same time an outbreak of anti-semitism from the Left (which was always there I may add). It's wrong and it must be condemned!

[fedupinBushcountry]

7. Hi Beachmom

:hi:

I agree, it always saddens me when innocents bare the brunt of such a conflict. I think my anger at Israel at first was mainly of killing of innocents, and having a sister-in-law that is Lebanese, it just came natural to me. But I do realize how complicated this situation is, and I do realize how much this administration has been "a do nothing" player in the last 6 years to keep this all from unfolding into what is happening now.

You know when I go to the Discusssion page and see some of the topics, I cringe and like you I think it needs to be stopped. It is also sad how much hate is in so many (left or right) and that neither show a willingness to see that such hate is what is destroying so many right now.

Nice to have you back.

[Dr Ron]

9. Makes sense

"It makes one feel schizophrenic to both declare allegiance with Israel while being critical of their conduct of the war, but that's the best way to describe my feelings."

That's no different than supporting the United States but opposing the Iraq war and the Vietnam war.

[WildEyedLiberal]

10. You should post that article in GD if you can stand it

The BIGOTS (yes, I said it) that are infesting DU like vermin need to read it.

[beachmom]

12. Done -- please K & R

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1839526

I will probably be destroyed, but I don't care. These people are bigots and they give ammunition for the Right, and deserve being pummelled for it. It also is a problem because then it gets harder to criticize Israel in a tough love way, when you're surrounded by anti-Semite Leftists.

[beachmom]

13. 100 posts and I'm done with the thread

EVERY SINGLE comment AGAINST me. You guys -- DU is an anti-Israel site. NOBODY stuck up for Israel. Wow. Even a famous poster came out in favor of being an "anti-semite". I'm sure the thread will be locked soon, because I guess I broke a new rule that I didn't see. Whatever. I'm done with DU GD, and really hope for the day that Kerry will start his own blog, and I won't have to give any more money to this place.

Disgusted doesn't even begin to describe my feelings about these people.

Edited to add: I actually alerted the mods to lock the thread. It's SO ugly, and I broke a rule, so it's better to kill it now.

I'm now depressed. I'm so glad that Kerry came out in support of Israel's right to defend itself, because I have a very negative attitude about Democrats right now. With all their flaws, Israel is our #1 ally in the region, and the hatred and knee jerk condemnation of them from lefties just leaves me cold and wondering whether I should just go back to being an Independent. Tell me DU does NOT represent rank and file Democrats. Please?

[Dr Ron]

14. Looking for a blog?

"and really hope for the day that Kerry will start his own blog, and I won't have to give any more money to this place."

If it helps, I'll be opening a new blog soon. Ok, I'm not Kerry, but at least the blog will be something (and wont' be anti-Israel).

Plus I have lots of material over at DemBloggers http://www.dembloggers.com It is really strange over there. The Liberal Blog Network shows that page loads have jumped up to over 45,000 per week:

http://www.blogads.com/advertise/liberal_blog_advertising_network/order

That's well over double what it was before I started blogging there regularly, and four times the traffic of Democratic Daily, but not a single comment this week.

[beachmom]

21. I always like your blog posts, Ron, and was sorry to read about

your break with Dem Daily. But these things happen all the time with blogs, so I'll be looking forward to reading your posts on your new blog.

[fedupinBushcountry]

17. Don't be depressed

you said what needed to be said. The thing is that many on DU read only the words they want not the substance. I got there a bit to late it is now locked, but there were a few voices of reason, I too was surprised by a certain DUer's comment, like others he only replied to words not the reasoning behind them.

Stay out of GD, that is why I like the Kerry group so much, we may not agree on everything but at least we act like adults and talk it out with reasoned comments.

[WildEyedLiberal]

18. I'm sure 90% of Democrats support Israel

Really, the only place I've ever heard anti-Israel sentiment is on the "netroots." Support for Israel is something that unifies most Americans. I am not comfortable with aspects of the current offensive in Lebanon, but then again, where's the outrage at Hezbollah and its terrorist tactics?

Kerry is not alone in the Democratic party in expressing support for Israel. Feingold, Dean, and Hillary are three of the notable famous Dems who have expressed support for Israel.

Edit: DU is not even close to representing the mainstream of the Democratic party and the fact that they think they represent "real" Dems is such a joke. I love the Kerry forum and like a lot of posters in GD but by and large DU is so out of touch it's sad.

[JohnKleeb]

24. I don't blame you

I am thinking about leaving all together honsetly and not coming back. Don't know guys really. This is all bugging the hell out of me. And if it's any consolation the Rank and File don't think like this.

[fedupinBushcountry]

25. Kleeb

don't leave the Kerry group, you are a great young voice and we need your input here. :grouphug:

[JohnKleeb]

28. I guess I won't leave

I am just frustrated is all. I mean BeachMom did her damndest to get attention on a serious topic. The Anti Semitism is real and people are wearing blinders if they don't realize it.

[TayTay]

26. Kleeb, there has always been a split

DU skews left. Sometimes it nearly tips the boat over it skews so much to the left. Take that into account when you read it. You are hearing 'a' voice, not 'the' voice of some Democrats.

I think I am just used to this though. Massachusetts has a very strong and very, very, very, very vocal liberal group of activists/voters. It was the norm to me to heard loud and strong dissenting voices. I just take it with a grain of salt, or, to be more accurate, a grain of what I also know to be true in the world. I like learning from the discordia of voices.

I won't leave DU. I remember last August and September when Katrina happened and Democrats all over America had the collective 'aneurysm/heart attack/stroke' that went with seeing a major American city abandoned by an unfeeling and uncaring government. DU was 'there' for me then. There were people who felt like I did. I will always disagree with some on DU, but there are more that I can have a decent talk with, especially in this group. So, I'll stay. I think I just like the view from here. Feels like home. (Yeah, it is often like that in this neck of the woods. Snarky, funny, sometimes unintelligible, sometimes makes you want to call someone out as a flaming retard and then hang out with them later on. I will agree with some one day, think they are the biggest losers ever the next. I expect there are those who feel the same way about me. Such is life!)

[JohnKleeb]

27. I guess you're right

Sorry I am just frustrated ya know. We criticize and rightfully I should add the Bush Administration for the NSA wiretapping, the abuses of the Patriot Act under Attorney General Ashcroft and then you have people who defend some of the most downright disgusting people in the world simply because that person is in opposition to Bush.

[TayTay]

29. Kleeb, they are wrong

Hold on to your own moral center. Present your arguments and assess the 'other side' in an argument. But don't let them get you down. You are your own person and not responsible for the idiocy of others.

This leads to burn-out. By all means, take a break, but I gotta tell ya, the idiots are everywhere, so you can't actually get away from them. Sigh!

[paulk]

37. you've made the mistake of thinking that DU is a liberal website

I made that mistake too, when I first joined.

DU has always been a place that attracted extreme elements. That these types think of themselves as liberal, progressive, or "on the left", doesn't mean they are. And they are most certainly not rank and file Democrats.

I think it's important to keep that in mind when reading this site. And having a couple of hundred people on ignore doesn't hurt, either.

:)

[Mass]

19. This is a pretty good and well-formed expression of the problem.

[Dr Ron]

8. The little tihngs escalate

Of course we need to accept zero tolerance for such anti-Semitism and never accept an excuse such as "letting off steam."

That's why I left Democratic Daily. I could not associate with a site which trivializes Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic tirade as meaningless words from a drunk, and which downplayed the seriousness of his father's Holocaust-denial.

When it turns to violence, such as the examples you mention, it is far worse. One leads to another. Accepting statements such as Mel Gibson's leads others to violence. Small scale violence may never lead to the type of violence seen in the Holocaust or pogroms, but that is not something which is worth risking.

If you can rationalize the behavior of a Mel Gibosn, you can rationalize the small scale violence, and ultimately rationalize the more extreme violence.

[sandnsea]

11. I am so glad to see this

Sometimes I really feel like the odd one out on DU. I understand the dynamics of it all and that the Palestinian people have been treated horribly. But I also understand how difficult it would be to exist in an environment where everyone wanted you dead. The bottom line is that Israel cannot stop the violence in the ME on its own, but the Palestinians and Muslim factions can. So no matter how badly I feel for everyone suffering violence there, I can't sidestep that basic truth to swipe a broad brush across Israel. Moreover, it's stunning to me that there are people who are 100% in the corner of Hezbollah, no matter how many times they say they don't support terrorists. You can't justify or dismiss rocket attacks on Israel by a group that has NO legitimacy in its existence at all and then claim you're being "evenhanded". The whole thing has been very unsettling and disturbing, and this kind of attitude and out and out adoration for Castro, Chavez even when they stand with Iran is exactly why people don't vote for Democrats.

[emulatorloo]

15. I gotta tell you, I just cannot stand DU right now - it is almost as if

it has become an extreme right wing site. Seems to have become increasing reactionary over the last six months.

[WildEyedLiberal]

16. The extreme left and the extreme right meet at the crossroads

of Loony and Wackjob.

I've always believe the political spectrum is a circle, not a line, where the authoritarian hatemongers from the left and right eventually blur into one.

[rockymountaindem]

23. I've heard it described as a horseshoe

It's not a circle, but it's close, ya know?

[Mass]

20. One of the problems is that people who cared about the issues and

were willing to be at the same time supportive of the state of Israel, while still opposing what was done in its name right now have been once again unable to express themselves on DU (as usual), being called at the same time Zionist supporters and baby killers from one side and antisemitic from the other side for the same post (it happened to me).

From there, all rational dialogue has disappeared and an extreme post has led to another.

As for what I have felt all along, I think it is best described by this editorial written at the beginning of the conflict:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/comment/0,,1821605,00.html

In Lebanon as in Gaza, it is not Israel's right to protect its civilian population from terrorist aggression that is at issue. It is the way Israel goes about exercising that right.

Despite bitter lessons from the past, Israel's political and military leaders remain addicted to the notion that, whatever they have a right to do, they have a right to overdo, to the point where they lose what international support they had when they began their retaliatory measures.

...
Henry Siegman is a Senior Fellow on the Middle East at the Council on Foreign Relations, a visiting professor at the Sir Joseph Hotung Middle East Program of the School of Oriental and African Studies in London and former head of the American Jewish Congress.

Sadly, while a lot of rational DUers would have been ready to discuss along these lines or similar (whether they agree or disagree), their voices were regularly drowned by the non-dialogue between the two extremes.

[Dr Ron]

22. Can't even agree on the issue

"In Lebanon as in Gaza, it is not Israel's right to protect its civilian population from terrorist aggression that is at issue. It is the way Israel goes about exercising that right."

There are so many issues here, and different people are discussing different issues without even agreeing on what they are talking about.

The way Israel goes about defending itself is the more meaningful issue to discuss, but even though this aritcle says it is the issue not everyone talking is discussing this.

It looks like many in GD are actually discussing Israel's very right to protect itself and its right to exist. These aren't very useful discussions to hold as people are not going to budge from their opinions on these. Hopefully those who question Israel's right to exist and defend themselves are in the minority, but a noisy croud on a site like this can give the appearance of being a majority viewpoint.

[Dr Ron]

30. Media coverage

Check out http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008763

At first I thought it was just another one of those conservative articles claiming that support for Lamont over Lieberman is due to anti-Semitism on the left, but that's not what it turned out to be. It is by a liberal noting anti-Semitic comments at sites such as Huffington and Kos. The article does not claim that this is the major support for Lamont or reason for Lieberman's political problems as some right wing blogs have but has identified a real problem.

[Mass]

31. Lanny Davis trying to put Lieberman's loss on antisemitism from the left.

Yes, these emails exists, he is right, but it is a shame that Lieberman's supporters (and he is one of them) are using a few stupid idiots from the Huffington Post to shame Democrats not to vote for him.

Lanny Davis is not just another liberal, he is one of the most important Lieberman supporters.

[Dr Ron]

33. Yes, but unfortuantely they have these examples

Lieberman people have long been trying to falsely claim that the opposition to Lieberman is based upon anti-Semitism.

This op-ed tries to have it both way. He insinuates it with the examples and then backs down, saying enough so he can come back and claim "oh no, that's not what I'm accusing."

Unfortunately the damage is done. The conservative blogs are picking up on the examples he gives and ignoring the weak disclaimer at the end to spread the claims of anti-Semitism on the left. Unfortunately there are enough examples so they can make such a case, even though they are likely a small percentage of liberals.

[Mass]

32. David Sirota's answer to this.

http://www.davidsirota.com/

[Dr Ron]

34. Wonder how it will work for Lieberman

Will Lieberman pick up more votes due to people falling for the line that the campaign against him is based upon anti-Semitism? He might pick up some this way, but this tactic is also likely to antagonize Jewish voters who realize the game Lieberman is playing and could also shift some votes to Lamont.

[Mass]

35. I am not sure where the primary will go. Of course, on DU, it seems that

Lamont would get 90 % of the vote, but in real life, from what I have seen in Northern Connecticut, I expect the result to be very close.

[Dr Ron]

36. Don't know either

Obviously it won't be anyway near 90%. Polling before primaries is so poor that it can wind up virtually anywhere. I agree the most likely result is a close race but a 10% differential is also possible.

I'd like to see Lamont win by enough to make an indepenedent run by Lieberman implausible. It would be best if this ends now rather than continuing Lieberman vs. Lamont in a three way race all the way to November, distracting from beating Republicans elsewhere.