What wrong with some people?

[ProSense]

Check out the first few responses to this post at Daou:

http://daoureport.salon.com/synopsis.aspx?synopsisId=b5ec3773-8bba-4e16-8ce8-a810e1b22208#



I posted a comment:

Compared to the right wing, the current level of corruption in the GOP and Bush's reasons for going to war and a host of other malfeasance supported by the GOP, the left can claim the moral high ground. No amount of swearing and claims that both sides are the same can change that. Until the right begins to speak out about the war, clean up their corrupt party and stop using smear tactics such as those used on McCain, the left will hold the higher moral ground. JMO!

[k j]

1. My guess is...

"Steve" is a Libertarian. At least, he sounds like one I used to TRY to talk to everyday for too many years.

I think he is also a known troll over there. LUTD's old troll, "Fritz," was also there the other day. :eyes:

[ProSense]

2. So that's it! I came across this article from American Prospect:

The Book of Liberal Virtues
Yes, they exist. And they’re the best tools we have for countering the right’s assertion that everything is political.
By Kevin Mattson
Issue Date: 02.05.06

Snip...

Liberal Virtues

All of this adds up to something that conservatives deny: that liberals have a conception of the good life. For some time, conservatives have charged that liberals lack a moral structure or that their moral structure is too paltry to require anything of citizens of a liberal democracy. Some on the left agreed. But as numerous political theorists have shown, liberals have their own set of expectations for citizens. It is a demanding set of expectations that centers around what political theorist Stephen Macedo called “public reasonableness,” a belief that citizens should enter debate about the future of their society with “broad sympathies, self-critical reflectiveness, a willingness to experiment, to try and to accept new things.” This is the value of liberal humility.

Snip...

I realize that the arguments made here are not easily transferred into bulleted points. Nor are they “talking points” for those looking to win scream-fests against the right. On the other hand, none of what I’ve spelled out here is terribly difficult to articulate coherently for a wider audience: We want citizens to be thoughtful, capable of entertaining ideas that they might not subscribe to at first. We believe that these values are engrained in the American past and speak to America’s better side. We believe that they rely upon good schools and a responsible media. As much as there’s a strong streak of anti-intellectualism coursing through the American past, there’s also been a belief that education can be open to all and can nurture intelligence and thoughtfulness among all citizens. That’s the liberal hope for the future.

Our hope is grounded in a faith that citizens still want something more than what the right’s culture wars offer. The right makes clear what it wants every time we hear the red-faced screaming of Bill O’Reilly, the he-man antics of Sean Hannity, the coarse and ugly bellowing of Ann Coulter (whose hero is, not surprisingly, Joe McCarthy), the calls to “political war” by David Horowitz, and the anti-intellectual steadfastness of our president, who refuses to believe that facts matter. It is a culture that portrays America’s teachers as liberal dogmatists and elitists eager to indoctrinate students and America’s journalists as opinionated propagandists. It is a culture that ironically degrades authority. Some Americans might like this bullying, but many find it disturbing. It is the role of liberals to articulate why that’s so.

In so doing, liberals must be ready for battles on the culture front. We are indeed in the midst of another round of culture wars, and it can be a good thing. Liberals have values that they stand for, and plenty more can emerge if we debate openly with ourselves about what we believe (to be honest, that is, that there are divisions within our ranks). In the meantime, we need to explain to the American public why postmodern conservatives are wrong for the country and what we have to offer against them. That’s the type of culture war that liberals should feel ready and sure about fighting -- and even winning.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewPrint&articleId=10829

From Daou,this is a good comment by another poster:

I'm not sure how all of this turned into a debate about which side is "more moral," or who should be in power. Maybe because Steve got all defensive and started sniping...

My understanding was that Daou was discussing the different outlooks that the left and the right have on international relations. The right seem to think that intimidation is the right way to go, a la "shock and awe", and that there isn't much value in cultivating the moral high ground with respect to other countries. The left feels that how we're perceived by the rest of the world matters very much, and that cultivating that high ground will help us accomplish more than intimidation would.

I think we've pretty much discovered the limits of intimidation in Iraq--it's amazing how stubborn human beings can be when it comes to self-determination.

[k j]

3. It's also amazing...

how stubborn human beings can be when it comes to self-realization. :think:

That was a great post and loved reading the snip from Kevin Mattson, will have to print that out and read in full. Thanks!
Interesting, I was just commenting to a post at Pam and Ron's about the culture wars still being alive and well for the boomer generation, and sadly, that particular war has been extended to their children. (My comment is in the Kerry Refuting Swift Boat Lies blog by Ron that I linked to on another thread. Hope it's okay if I link to it here, don't want to be accused of blogwhoring, I just thought the blog and comments were interesting to read: http://blog.thedemocraticdaily.com/?p=3133#comments)

Immediately after November, 2004, I started reading and thinking again about symbols and metaphors and simple, simple language (which is my profession as a poet and editor. Although being a poet and editor doesn't do much for our bills but pay for our internet connection, LOL) And I still think the articulation has to be simple, strong and focused. I used to talk a lot on the old Kerry blog about that... about a simple message (issue) that would resonate across Red/Blue lines, and let all the other issues be like spokes off the main hub of a wheel. I still think that would speak to Red and Blue, and for my money, that issue is American Energy. And, hopefully Gore's movie will keep the issue in the front of news.

I live in Red, Red, Rural Red (at least for now), and I'm telling you, it's tough to get through to people here.

[ProSense]

5. I read through the post and

your response! If age is the only parameter for why Vietnam is important, why would anyone try to make the argument that it is irrelevant when Vietnam vets can be as young as their early 50s? They are parents and grandparents. On the families' side, there are many who losts parents, spouses and loved ones in Vietnam. I guess the assumption is that every Vietnam vet is in full health, with full benefits and families and veterans aren't having to cope (still) with the aftermath of Vietnam.

Beyond age of veterans, there are many reasons why Vietnam is relevant today, or is it the only war (tragic as they all are) that deserves the distinction of being irrelevant?

[k j]

6. The conversation is continuing...

I like this person I'm disagreeing with, but I still think he's (bad pun coming up!) missing the boat on the Swiftboating and Vietnam. Go make your points and help me out, LOL

Because it's true, why is Vietnam irrelevent? It's about as relevent as anything I can think of!

Gotta go eat supper.

[k j]

9. Nice post!

am just now printing out Kevin Mattson's article to read. Thanks again.

[ProSense]

10. Thanks!

The stats are from the VA.

[sandnsea]

4. I saw Fritz

I was sure to say hello, and asked him if he'd gotten a new assignment. :rofl:

[k j]

7. LOLOLOL

I didn't want to talk to him, but was so tempted to ask him how "The Wife" was and if he'd watched Dr. Phil lately. :crazy: :freak:

[ray of light]

8. really good post!