EuropeGirl, check in sweetie!

[TayTay]

Are you anywhere near the riots in France? (I dearly hope not.) Can you fill us in on what is going on?

Waiting to hear from you and hoping all is well. (Check in my dear just to let us know you are okay!)

[europegirl4jfk]

1. Don't worry, I'm fine!

Thanks, TayTay, for asking. That's really sweet of you. I live in a little town in the south and until now we don't have riots here. Nevertheless I did put the car in the closed driveway tonight. Normally I leave it in the street... but you never know. My daughter is in Lyon and I talked to her on the phone earlier. She is fine and for the moment it's still calm there. But she lives in the city and not anywhere near the suburbs.

These riots and car burnings in the Paris (and other towns') suburbs aren't really new. We have them from time to time but never as widespread as they are now. Most of the young people are North-African immigrants or descendants of those immigrants, but it's not really a religious problem. They have the French nationality and theoretically have the same rights all the French people have. But people living in these suburbs in housing projects never have a chance to get a good education and then a good job to get out. It's a vicious circle repeating itself from generation to generation. And that concerns poor Arabs and poor French people all the same.

There are two things that have changed over the years and have added to the problem. First of all the suburbs became a spreading ground for Islamic extremists. It certainly isn't too difficult to recruit these hopeless young people with no future in their French environment to the terrorists cause.

Then we have a right-wing government since Chirac is in power (okay, not like Bush but nevertheless). They use force instead of understanding against these poor people. Especially our interior minister called them scum and promised to use extreme force if necessary. This strong language didn't go down well and the riots are the result. My guess is that France can't solve these problems without making a real effort to integrate and educate these people.

[TayTay]

2. Thanks so much for checking in.

I kind of thought you were not near the rioting, but it never hurts to ask. I hope your daughter remains safe and that things quiet down. When we have civil unrest in this country it always seems that buses, homes and businesses that the very people who are rioting need are the things that get destroyed. Sigh!

This really is a global problem. When I was in Scotland this past summer they had a debate about what to do with immigrant populations that haven't been fully integrated into their society. They looked to the US and the model we use with adapting different groups of immigrants. (Americans are allowed to have dual allegiances. In some cases, it's deeply encouraged. So you can have Iranian-Americans and Iraqi-Americans, as long as both sides of the hypehn are respected. American allegiance is geographic, it's to a group of ideals. That's a fairly unique model in the world. Anyone can be an American, you just have to proclaim that you believe in American-ness, if you will.) We have failures and successes in this, of course, as class, education, woork opportunities and such interfere.

The Brits, when I was there, were having a debate over if there is a 'Britishness' that immigrants can 'swear to.' They weren't sure. They also don't think the British population would like this. (They don't want to be like Americans in this regard.)

Is this a problem in France as well? (What makes a person French?)

[Mass]

4. TayTay, most of these kids are French

They are born in France, raised in France, and have full right to French citizenship by birth, just as a person born in the US is an American citizen.

One of the issue is that the model that has worked traditionnally in France is "assimilation", not "integration". It worked very well for generations of immigrants from Eastern Europe, Italy, Spain, and Portugal, where after the first generation, the children were indistiguishable from the people whose parents were born French.

Unfortunately, the model does not work too well with people coming from Africa, for various reasons. Europegirl4jk described the situation very well. we are talking about people staying poor from generation to generation and places that have been fairly explosive for years.

[TayTay]

5. Thanks!

So this is economic based, rather than just problems with assimilation. (Or, more likely, one colliding with another?) The pictures on the news were just awful and one prayed that things would settle down. (The last thing poor areas need is more devastation or destruction.)

What other French cities has this spread to and is it ebbing?

[Mass]

6. More a mix of the two issues

I think it has reached most major cities by now, unfortunately, and I am concerned the situation will not be increased by Chirac strong words today.

I just hope the adults in these cities will succeed to calm the situation. I have seen that the main Islamic Organization has condemned the riots, which is a good sign, I guess, but it is getting worse and worse.

[europegirl4jfk]

7. Most of these people are French citizens

Mass is right here. They often live in France now in second or third generation. Some of them have dual citizenship as France is allowing this as well. I still think it isn't a question of language, religion, maybe even not culture, but more the problem of poverty and no vision for the future. I've never lived in a big city here in France and especially not in a suburb, so it's difficult for me to make the right judgment. But just let me talk about some personal experience I made here in my small Mediterranean town.

When my daughter was a little kid we lived in an old townhouse in the city center with no garden and Julie played in the street where she was often joined by the neighbors' daughter and sons. We called them the "Algerians" but they were more French then we are (I still have my German citizenship because Germany - not France - doesn't allow a dual citizenship). They were very nice and polite kids and I often had long discussions with their mother, an outspoken, modern and liberal woman who criticized our then right-wing mayor and didn't hesitate to go to him directly when she didn't agree with his politics. They were poor and her husband took every seasonal job he could get. But this wasn't different from other people in our street. Unemployment is high here in the south, especially in the lower social levels of society, and most of the time only the men have a regular job while the women stay at home with the kids. When this woman's eldest son dropped out of high-school she was very sad but the courageous woman she is, she fought to find an employment for him and finally got him work with a construction company, and now in his early twenties, he is still working there.

On the other hand, Julie had a classmate back in primary school who's father was a fisherman. This boy often didn't come to school because he had to help his father selling the fishes at the market place. Especially on Saturdays he never showed up at school. The parents were convened by the teachers several times but never came because they thought school wasn't important for their son. In forth grade the poor boy still couldn't read and I think he dropped out right after primary school. This family were French people, not immigrants.

My point is, when I see the poor people here in our town, the young guys and girls who don't go to school, have no work and hang around in groups and gangs, the men in their best years spending the whole day in the pub... yes, there are a lot of "Arabs" but I see as many underprivileged, uneducated French people as well.

[Mass]

3. Thanks god, I am hearing a same voice here.

I was wondering from GDP if the situation in France had changed so much that I did not recognize anything.

Happy to see that somebody who is actually in France can tell me what the situation is and confirm to me that what I have read in French newspapers is correct.

It is actually freaking as I lived for a long time near one of these "cités", but unfortunately, for all the reasons you quote, not very surprising.

Stay safe, you and your family.

[europegirl4jfk]

8. I didn't read the threads in GDP

What are they saying? And by the way, are you of French origin? Well, I'm actually German but live here since a long time and have seen riots and also terrorists acts before. But it never was as bad as it is know. I wasn't always happy back when Mitterrand was president but since Chirac was elected I think the situation has worsened.

[Mass]

9. Trying to make this an issue of bad muslims against good white

people. At least one person is and she is so adament that this is the problem that I was really wondering. I know that a lot of people have been reacting to the situation by claiming their Muslim identity, but I have real problems believing the kids living around Evry have become fundies.

I was born in France and have lived a long time in the Paris area. My husband is from MA and we have settled here definitively, I think, though my parents still live there. So I have more or less been disconnected from the situation overseas.

[europegirl4jfk]

10. I fear that unfortunately a lot of French people start to believe that

too. My friend's husband, a normally quite rational guy stated that he will vote for Le Pen in the next election (extreme right-wing guy - for those who don't know him). People don't realize that the already tough politics of Chirac's government have fanned the flames even more.

That's funny. You are French and live in the US, I'm German and live in France. But you definitely have a big advantage over me. You live next to John Kerry, you lucky girl ;-)

[Mass]

11. People are afraid right now. They feel they need a strong hand.

Unfortunately, you are right about Chirac's policies.

I am very lucky to live in MA. It is great and I had no problem getting used to it (I knew already because I had spent all my vacations for years here in my husband's family).

I have spent some time in other states, but MA is the place I feel the more at ease, probably because people are less conservative.

[JI7]

12. it's always interesting when people say Chirac is some huge liberal

based on his response to the Bush administration and Iraq. but even in his relationship with the Bush administration , he never came off as truly opposed to Bush based on a liberal view as you saw with Schroeder of Germany and some others.

the way he dealt with some of the smaller poor nations when trying to get them to stand against BUsh on Iraq did not help either. it seemed more like he wanted them to yield to his power rather than get them to unite in opposition to something that was wrong.