Rant

[sandnsea]

What is the term for the kind of thinking that generates contemplation about consequences? Or has one think, hmmm, what else is there to the story? Or, considers the needs of somebody else? Or, recognizes political rhetoric no matter where it comes from?

Why do so many people seem to be lacking it? Is it critical thinking, or some other kind of thinking? How does a society teach it?

It isn't just the fundie right that lacks this ability.

And on the subject of thinking, southern African Americans are voting for things like the bankruptcy bill and energy bill. Why? Is there something percolating in the African American vote that liberals are missing? Do they feel like social programs targeted at minorities perpetuates the notion that they're a permanent underclass? Do they feel condescended to?

Do liberal lefties truly THINK beyond traditional liberal dogma?

I am just so tired of reactionary bullshit.

[whometense]

1. You ask some very provocative questions.

I'm in no position to answer to your questions about the African American vote, but I would love to hear someone answer them.

Critical thinking is hard work. When I read that such a large amount of Dean adulation came from middle-aged white people it really made my head snap around. When I was thinking it was coming from young people it didn't bother me as much. But where were the critical faculties of those people? Reasoned support is one thing; worshipping is quite another.

I'm starting to think that "reactionary bullshit" is a great term for it. I think when people are scared they tend to cling to their kneejerk positions. And while it seems like people on the right are scared of foreigners/terrorists, people on the left are more scared of people on the right.

P.S. Edited to add, I'm sick of the reactionary bullshit too.

[sandnsea]

5. fear

Never thought of it like that. I understood the fear and dysfunctional response from the right. Never looked at the left's response to the fear of the right. Does make it a little easier to be empathetic.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildEyedLiberal]

24. If what you claim is true

Then we're not talking about you anyway, so you don't need to worry about it.

You don't attack Kerry, but you come in here to whine about how we all don't love Dean. This isn't the Dean debate forum, and we're allowed to have our own opinions of Dean - some are postive, some negative, some ambivalent- without you butting in and 'correcting' us. Thanks.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whometense]

27. You are mis-reading what I said.

Don't want to get into a big argument here, but I did not attack Dean. I have gone out of my way in other threads to say that I see Dean as a good man and a moderate dem.

What I was talking about, and I stand by my comments, were the people who claimed to be Dean supporters, but who supported him for reasons unsubstantiated by the facts. And who continue to bitterly claim that Kerry somehow sabotaged Dean. I was in no way discussing reasonable people who liked Dean in the primaries. Big difference.

[ginnyinWI]

2. I know

Some of them can't seem to think about more than one side of an issue. You can blame lack of education, or lack of a quality education, but it's a shame. Living will teach it, too--teaches you that you aren't always right, and that there can be more than one way to look at a problem or solve it. I don't usually get into fights where I try to convince someone of something, but I do correct a post if I see they've got the basic facts wrong!

The funniest thing is when a Dem leader says ONE thing that doesn't fit into their idea of what a liberal or progressive should think, and wham!, that person is in their "Evil" column, right beside the Chimp & Cheney show. Black and white thinking. Good guys and Bad guys. :eyes:

[JohnKleeb]

3. Are you talking about people like Sanford Bishop and David Scott

voting for those? those two are more moderate than your average black caucus member, John Lewis, Cythia McKinney, etc are all southern black caucus dems who are quite liberal.

[sandnsea]

4. Here

This is the list of people who voted for both the bankruptcy bill and the energy bll. B is for the Blue Dogs.

I don't remember which are minorities and which aren't. Davis, Meeks & Ford are all DLC, so that explains that. I was just truly surprised at the number of minorities from Texas and the rest of the south that voted for this stuff. Really made me take a step back.

Baca San Bernadino CA B
Bishop Columbus GA B
Boren Muskogee OK B
Boswell IA B
Boucher SW VA
Cramer Huntsville AL B
Cuellar San Antonio TX
Davis AL Birmingham AL
Davis So Mid TN 2002 B
Edwards Ft Worth – Waco TX 1990
Ford Memphis TN 1996 B
Gonzales San Antonio TX 1998
Gordon No MID TN 1982
Green, AL Houston TX 2005
Herseth SD 2002 B
Hinojosa McAllen TX 1996
Holden Harrisburg PA B
Jackson-Lee Houston TX 1994
Jefferson New Orleans LA 1996
Matheson SE Utah 2000 B
Meeks Queens NY 1998
Melancon Houma LA B
Mollohan Wheeling WV 1983
Murtha SW PA
Ortiz Brownsville TX 1982
Peterson MN B
Pomeroy ND B
Reyes El Paso TX 1994
Ross S AR 2000 B
Scott Jonesboro GA 2002 B
Skelton Jeff City MO
Wynn Rockville MD

[JohnKleeb]

6. Ok here goes

Baca San Bernadino CA B (Hispanic I believe)
Bishop Columbus GA B (Black)
Cuellar San Antonio TX (Hispanic, in fact I was interviewed for an internship with his office)
Davis AL Birmingham AL (Black, he replaced Earl Hillard, a much more liberal dem)
Ford Memphis TN 1996 B (Black)
Gonzales San Antonio TX 1998 (Hispanic)
Jackson-Lee Houston TX 1994 (Black)
Jefferson New Orleans LA 1996 (Black)
Meeks Queens NY 1998 (Black)
Ortiz Brownsville TX 1982 (Hispanic)
Reyes El Paso TX 1994 (Hispanic)
Scott Jonesboro GA 2002 B (Black)
Wynn Rockville MD (Black)

[whometense]

7. So what's the verdict?

Some kind of tough love thing?

[JohnKleeb]

8. those who voted for both are generally more moderate in the first place

They aren't on the issues like say Jesse Jackson Jr, John Conyers, Eilijah Cummings, Melvin Watt, Barbara Lee, Charley Rangel, etc types, these types appear to be more southern and rural based with the exception of Congressman Wynn who is from a Maryland district.

[sandnsea]

11. So

Doesn't that sort of fly in the face of conventional wisdom on the minority vote? Is the Dem party stuck in the past and not listening to the needs of rural and moderate voters, no matter the skin color? Just asking questions.

[JohnKleeb]

12. I dont know

I am someone who knows who these people are and what they represent, I dont know too much about why they think a certain why. Its ok to ask me questions, I am not an anaylist that said tho.

[sandnsea]

13. Oh I know

It's just interesting to gather information. Like below, where you added that some of these are poor districts too. I guess I could phrase it in a poor white fashion, because I don't want to dump anything on minorities when I haven't got a clue. But I know poor white people who work every day want to be seen as carrying their share. It would be hard to advocate for a bankruptcy bill when you think everyone is staring at you as the one who would use it. When the truth is, you've never been able to get any credit to bankrupt. When that kind of thinking is permeated in a community, I would guess the Rep would have to vote along those lines, no matter the skin color. I don't know, I've got no better idea than you. Just hope somebody is asking the questions who does know.

[JohnKleeb]

14. Yeah its cool

I wish I knew why too honestly, I just know demographics, when I start going to college, I'll start learning why people vote certain ways and such not. Voting demographics and why people vote the way they do is very interestin, how PA went from largely Catholic Democrat in 1960 pres election to 2000 with division.

[JI7]

17. you mean there are other black congressmembers besides them ?

HAHAHAH

based on what you read some places you would think those you named and maybe a few others like Maxine Waters were the only black congressmembers there are.

but there are many others whose name you don't easily recognize . and they represent african americans and others also. they may not be as liberal as others but the fact that they are public officials and people vote for them is something we need to consider.

Harold Ford Jr stands out as among the not so liberal but mostly because he has done things to get national recognition such as go on tv shows and that whole thing where he tried to become Democratic Leader against Pelosi knowing he had no chance.

and i have seen that guy Al Davis a few times on TV and he comes across as being like Evan Bayh.

[JohnKleeb]

19. Yeah I was about to say

The CBC is diverse as the democratic caucus as a whole which I think is great since diversity in views and socioeconomics is good.

[sandnsea]

9. Al Green too

He's from Houston. I don't get it, but I think we're missing something if we don't try to understand.

[JohnKleeb]

10. Oops I Didnt notice

the ones you name are more southern and more moderate but yet some of them come from poor districts as well, weird isnt it.

[TayTay]

15. Best advice ever: Follow the money

Where do these Reps get the bulk of their campaign money? Did they get big donations from credit card PACs? There are a lot of near-loan shark places in areas where the poor live. (They charge userous rates. Some people take out small loans with interest rates that are so high, these folks end up losing their homes.)

Follow the money. Individual laws that govern campaign fund-raising vary from state to state. This could supply part of the reason why some Reps are voting for legislation that would make life harder for their constituents.

The other reason is the vaunted 'fight for the soul of the Democratic Party' that is indeed raging among us at the moment. (We all know this of course, right? The Dems are having one of those defining moments that will shape the future of the Party for decades to come. You all see this, right?) Dems are in the process of figuring out what it means to be a Democrat. Do you dance with the poor ones what brung you or do you try to lean to the Rethug side in order to lure over the centrists. (Neither argument is completely valid, btw.)

We all heard claims last year that the 2004 election was the most important one of our lifetimes. This is profoundly true. The reverberations of that election have shaken the Dems to their very core. We are now witnessing the fights and re-alignments that will determine if Dems are going to continue to play kissy-face with the Rethugs or decide that they are the 'Party of the People' and decide to embrace the interests of those people. We are in a fight for the direction we will take for many years to come. Stay tuned.

[paulk]

16. our public education system doesn't teach critical thinking

My wife and I have talked about this many times ... and it's her opinion, having grown up alternating between Italy and the US, that the American system doesn't teach students how to take facts and use them to formulate their own opinions.

Our system teaches people how to regurgitate - and too often, when challenged, the reaction is anger rather than a desire to discuss. Argument, instead of being seen as an opportunity to expand knowledge, is seen as a personal affront.

[whometense]

18. and that won't improve under

NCLB, either.

It won't suit the rethugs' purposes to have people thinking, will it??

[politicasista]

20. I was suprised that some members of the Congressional Black Caucus..

voted for this bill. They are usually on top of Anti-repuke issues like voter supression, the Iraq war, etc. Some southern dems (i.e. Ford, Bishop, Scott) have turned conservative in years. Like Kleeb said, they are more moderate than Lewis, Waters, Tubbs-Jones, etc.

The black dems who voted for this are getting slammed by black online media outlets. They have been called everything from sell-outs to traitors.

[JohnKleeb]

21. Those three have always been more moderate

Bishop reprsents where Fort Benning is in Georgia, so there's a large military presence. Ford has always been a more moderate, unlike his father who was more liberal, and Scott is only in his second term, he also interestingly enough is the brother in law of Hank Aaron.

[sandnsea]

29. I hate sounding so white, but...

What are the issues within the black community that differ, more than people might think, white people might think, which sounds so elitest to put that way, but I don't mean it that way. Is gay marriage really a huge issue that is causing people to rethink Dem support? Vouchers? Prayer in school? No economic investment? :shrug:

It isn't just black Reps either, there were plenty of hispanic minorities in Texas voting for that stuff too.

I personally saw that list I posted above as an opportunity to know exactly where to target. TX, TN, & AL. We start talking to the people in those 3 states, really combatting right wing spin, and let it spread out from there. But first we have to know why the Dem Reps in those states are voting the way they're voting.

[politicasista]

31. Our issues are the same as the rest of america

The main issues are the economy, education, jobs, health care, the Iraq war, racism/affirmative action, terrorism, crime, poverty, and the environment just to name a few are our issues.

Bush paid off a lot of black preachers to spread the Rovian word to their congregations about how "good" a Christian Bush was, gay marriage, abortion, school prayer, etc. Those issues are on the backburner compared to the main ones above. I don't think one preacher has regreted misleading his/her congregation by telling them to vote for Bush. (Sad, ain't it?).

There are a lot of moderate to conservative democrats, as well as Dixiecrats here in the South that are just plain ignorant, not all but some.

BTW. I didn't know the Hispanic pols supported the bill to.

[politicasista]

32. It was too late for me to add more, but another thing

When the GOP sent out that memo about how Kerry/Edwards and the Dems were going to ban the Bible, A lot of blacks believed that and started supporting the candidate who will keep the Bible (yes the politics of fear). Screw everything else, I need my Bible.

To make the long story short, Black leadership is a mess right now. If we want to fix our community, it has to start with us and the Black Caucus Dems being on the same page.


Hope that makes sense.

[JI7]

33. i think the religion stuff is where it hurt Kerry most with minorities

as you say Bush paid off some people. they did the same with Latino and other churches which are mostly Catholic which is why Bush ended up winning the Catholic votes even though Kerry himself is Catholic and attends church regularly.

they even send some videos to Muslims and other conservative religious people.

Kerry did ok mostly when he was able to get his message out on the issues like economy, education , etc. but there is still a problem with the media which mostly lies and covers up for bush.

[politicasista]

34. That's right, they did that with Latinos, Catholics, Muslims and others

They all think (or thought Bush) was a good, strong Christian man. Yes, the media lied to them period.

[sandnsea]

38. But in Ohio

We didn't lose among the hispanic vote the way we did the black vote. I don't think the Catholic vote even got hit as badly as the black vote. That's why I'm wondering if something is going on that we're completely missing.

[JI7]

41. i think Kerry campaign thought economic issues would be enough

and they didn't think the religious stuff would influence the black voters that much. so effort in black communities focused mostly on economic, education, health care etc.

i did notice towards the end Kerry started focusing more on religion when he spoke to black voters and i think they probably just started seeing how it was affecting him a bit.

he also got into a bit of trouble when he compared gay rights to the civil rights movement.

[politicasista]

44. The gay rights--civil rights comparison was a no no

I think a black woman had told him she was offended by that. Did he apologize?

[JI7]

46. yeah, it was a black woman but i don't think he apologized

i think he just tried to explain what or how he meant it instead. but i remember talking to this black girl who also supported Kerry about that and she said even among many blacks who support gay rights they tend to not view it as similar to the civil rights movement and find it offensive when it is compared.

i think it's little things like this that Kerry started to learn and understand while campaigning. he is good on the issues overall and has a good record. but sometimes the way you communicate it needs to take into account the sensitivities of the community you speak to.

[sandnsea]

35. Okay

So I guess religion is something Dems should worry about???

Trying not to offend, is the Black community angry at a perceived lack of economic interest by Dems??? Are they buying into the 'Democrats think minorities can't stand on their own two feet' stuff? That we're trying to keep minorities dependent for votes? I'm still sort of trying to figure out what "reaching out to minorities" means. Sorry to be such a doof.

Like the Meetups. Were they held in classic white areas or something? Is that the kind of thing that would make minorities feel left out?

[politicasista]

40. No, I think the Dems need to stay focused on the key domestic issues

as well as Civil Rights, Human Rights, Womens, Rights, etc. I rememember your post in one of the blogs at Light Up The Darkness on how we need to spend more time taking about our agenda instead of theirs.

You're not offending me, I think the perception is (and has always been) that the Dems take minorites for granted.

I think so many expect a politician to "stir the masses" and "move their souls" and make people support them as in Clinton. Some black leaders say Clinton was successful because he listened to their concerns and the Congresional Black caucus. I know Kerry did the same, but it was always ridiculed in the media. That's where one of the problems were. A lot of people believed the RW media lies about Kerry that they just didn't care cause he was "the lesser of two evils."

As far as meetups, I have never been to any yet. Sadly, many minorities here are politcally active compared maybe Atlanta or New Orleans.

[JI7]

43. i do think the religion thing is something we have to deal with

i don't think people though Kerry himself was bad in itself when it came to religion.

as you say it was the media and Republican lies such as Kerry wanting to ban bibles.

we need to find ways to get around this stuff. i really think the Kerry campaign thought that nobody could believe something so ridiculous. but it's different when the church leaders say it to them and especially if they have never seen Kerry for himself and only the media lies.

i think Kerry and other Dems need to start making contact with many minority communities right now. you need some people in those areas who are "appointed" to be in charge of getting your message out.

Kerry did this in the Primary and it worked well.

[politicasista]

45. I couldn't add more, but the religion thing is an issue

cause so many Americans are socially conservative. I am new to politics, but I like the ideas that you and others have.

[karynnj]

36. Wow

Do you think this extends to all Democrats or were they just poisoned on Kerry (and maybe Edwards). If it's just Kerry, do they still believe it? What bothers me is that Kerry in reality seems a more religious person than many of our potential candidates. So, it seems that we need to deal with this in some way.

If Kerry is the candidate, how can he communicate that he respects religion and is religious himself? Kerry's greatest strength was that he was unapologetically himself. So the question is whether these people would reject the man he really is or whether they rejected a lie. At the convention, the black swiftboat guy who is now a minister in SC(?) spoke about his own faith and Kerry. Was he at all persuasive in the black community? (I'm white - but was blown away by his sincerity and his genuine affection for Kerry.)

If the candidate is another Democrat, is there a way to inoculate us from a similar attack?

[sandnsea]

37. I loved that guy!!!

I don't like to play dissect the campaign, but there were sure some puzzlements along the way. That was one of them. Why wasn't that guy EVERYWHERE???

I think you also hit what I hadn't quite gotten to, was it just Kerry, or is the entire Democratic Party being poisoned in the black community. Do you know we lost 5 points among blacks in Ohio? That's serious party problems or serious voting problems, or both.

[JI7]

39. it was the same sex marriage thing

Republican efforts at using that to get the black vote was more extensive in Ohio. the fact that there was actually a bill being voted on helped the Republicans among many voters. some who aren't really political types were influenced to go out and vote because of that measure on the ballots and most of them voted for Bush along with it.

but Kerry still did well in that he exceeded many of the turnout goals. that's one of the reasons they thought they were winning for a while.

[sandnsea]

47. We did too, in Oregon

We, not me, but the state voted in the gay marriage amendment AND Kerry. :shrug: Maybe like in Florida, they voted in a higher minimum wage AND Bush. :shrug:

In Oregon though, it seems like the gay marriage amendment ended up being more of an afterthought. Then again, we had a malpractice cap, land use deregulation, forest bill, and marijuana bill on the ballot. Plenty of stuff to bring out the conservatives. Most of the intiatives went the way of the conservatives, while voting for Kerry. Very weird. The Iraq war must have won it here, big anti-war contingent. Tony McPeak is from Oregon too and had been writing against the war for a long time before he went campaigning for Kerry. Maybe that helped more than I realize.

[JI7]

48. Oregon is still much more Democratic leaning than Ohio

it was the same with Michigan where they went for Kerry over Bush but also voted for the anti gay thing.

the Republicans also put more effort into Ohio than into some of the other states which leaned Democrat mostly and voted Gore in 2000.

another thing is that the Republicans have total control in Ohio(and Florida) in the state. i don't think people realize how much this can affect the national presidential elections. i think if we just had one statewide official in the state our party would have had a much easier time of organizing the GOTV effort.

i don't think there was any one simple thing but a combination of things. i think these conversations are good to have where it's not just making huge claims about if we only did this we would have won or there is no way we could have won.

i think one important thing is we do need to develop relationships with various communities and we can't just see it as a black community and latino community etc. even within these groups we have to see there are some differences. some are more relgious than others and we need different people to speak to us to represent them.

people talk about Republicans being bigots and whatever else. this can hurt us since we refuse to acknowledge that Republicans did reach out to Muslims on issues like abortion, same sex marriage. my parents get some newspapers and other things targeted to their communities and i often read about Republican politicians who attend these things.

[sandnsea]

49. Yes, Michigan too

Yes, I guess it's important to remember the impact of people like Granholm. Oregon has alot of state Dems and I know it helped a couple of times in our election to have a Dem SOS.

I always forget that your family is Hindu, right? Part of that white affliction I guess, a tendency to think of everybody being just like you.

Anyway, that's kind of what I mean. We white liberal Dems have a tendency to think of minority needs in terms of poverty, equal rights and opportunity. And gangs. Other issues that minorities are thinking about, we might well miss altogether. Family, morality, city pollution, rural outdoors, prison population, business mentoring, I don't know. Maybe we do beat to death the image of the minority as the oppressed, poor, criminal; and don't say enough about anything else.

I don't know, just blathering.

[JI7]

50. i don't know much about these things either

it's only now that i'm paying more attention because of the whole electoral thing. i'm not religious and grew up here so most of the political issues that i think about are probably the same as yours.

Kerry understands these things though. one of the reasons i knew what his religious freedom bill was about was because i remember reading about how for Sikhs their wearing a turban is something that affects them when it comes to work and other things. it's also an issue that is important to Muslims and Jews. Hindus don't have any religious required clothing as these other religions do so i would never know from personal experience. but some of these people are discriminated against because of what they wear even if their wearing it has nothing to do with their job.

but these are the things that i think the party needs to understand. many view the religious freedom bill as pandering to the Christian right but if they knew about concerns for these different groups they would see it isn't just about the Christian right.

Kerry had first sponsered that bill in the 90's in part because of the religious minorities in his state. remember Boston is half minority so Kerry understands these things.

and i have seen Kerry talk to other groups where he is very knowledgeable about specific issues that affect their community. things i had never heard of he could easily have a conversation with these different people about. it's one of the reasons i like him.

[politicasista]

42. I think the RW media was the biggest problem

As far as Reverend Alston's influence in the black community, I am sure it was successful, but I didn't hear anything about it here in the southern media. I think this was one of the campaign's biggest mistakes (writing off the South).

I am sure if Kerry had visit SC, GA, TN, AL or Arkansas during the election, it probably would have made a difference. Of course, the repukes rigged the election, but it would have shown people that he wasn't "aloof" or "ignorant" to Southern values like the media kept repeating. Kerry had a lot of support down here in TN even though some blacks weren't overly impressed with him.

As far as religion, this is a tough one. Kerry was criticized by the media (Tavis Smiley included) for pandering to Black churches "when the polls showed he was in trouble." I would say it's okay to mix it up and talk religion and economy on the trail, but that's might be tricky since the Dems need a clear, strong, and unified message that will resonate with voters.

As I have said, the main problem is the media. The repukes would have smeared Dean, Clark, or Hillary any chance they got. I think we have to get organized and take back Congress, the media, and emphazized voting reform before 2008. As Momma T said, if we don't do that, than no democrat will have a chance.

Hope this helps.

[k j]

22. "I am just so tired of reactionary bullshit."

sandnsea, so am I.

[fedupinBushcountry]

26. OT, Question?

Why is it that we can not have a conversation about certain things, and then have someone that does not even belong here, start a flamebait and the thread ends up locked ? :shrug:

The other day Dr. Ron started a discussion, and I saw nothing wrong with it and it disappeared.

I am new at posting and I think I have had a couple of my posts deleted, and I didn't think I said anything wrong. I just don't want to be banned, it seems like certain people can flame all they want and when you counter them you get deleted. :shrug:

[paulk]

28. you should send a message to the mods with your concerns

especially concerning people coming on to this forum with the purpose of disrupting.

I have, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

[kerrygoddess]

30. Ain't that special...

Yet the thread by the one who disrupted here is still going strong in GDP.