Faith & Politics, Need Input

[sandnsea]

Pamela and I are planning on adding a section that will focus on liberal faith groups, of all sorts. And making an effort to post a little more on what liberal faith leaders are saying on values issues. We're looking for a name, a frame, to encompass it.

On the one hand, I think we'd kind of like to move away from the right's moral values, faith-based, etc. Something more universal and inclusive. On the other, we want to be clear to visitors what that section is about and that we are talking about liberal faith values.

Does Faith & Politics sound okay, or does it sound like another roll your eyes, somebody else is pandering to the right wing zealots.

[JI7]

1. i have mixed feelings

i guess if it was done in a way to welcome people of other faiths then that's one thing.

but i have a problem when people use religion as a reason or justification for the policy they want. this is because if we do this on issues we consider liberal than the same can be done with those that are considered conservative such as abortion.

our support for policy issues positions etc should be based on reasons that apply even if some religious belief conflicts with it.

[sandnsea]

3. Stuff like this

We'd blog more articles like these, from these people as well as new age and other beliefs. I was reading that Hindu isn't a religion, it is a way of life. Does that make sense? I forget if you said you were raised Hindu or Buddhist, just don't remember. Sorry, menopause took my memory away. The point would be that there are values besides the ones the religious right is pushing, and there are spiritual leaders talking about them. Finding the right words to encompass that without pandering or annoying.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/159/story_15998_1.html

http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=45681

[JI7]

6. i guess i can see that

if it was about presenting liberal side through different view points such as religious ones. kind of like when people discuss issues based on how they grew up and their experiences(and religious would apply here also). even if i didn't agree at times i think it would be good to learn about the different views.


yes, i was raised Hindu which is similar to Buddhism.i wasn't really raised in a "religious" sense as much as cultural though. for example i wasn't really told what or why we have to believe in certain things since we are Hindus. it was more of something we just "did" such as if there was a wedding , engagement parties, etc they might conduct a ceremony with rituals from it. and at formal events the females usually wear the ethnic type clothes. and of course there is the food.

[TayTay]

7. Sounds exactly like most of us

LOL! Really, we are all more alike than not.

This could describe my background as well.

[JI7]

8. yeah, it's like someone said

that there are probably Christians who are more in agreement or view things more similarly to Buddhists, Jews, etc, and even ahteists than they do with certain other christians.

and the same would probably apply to almost anyone of any religion or no religion.

just look at Catholics which include Kennedy,Kerry,Kucinich, but also includes Scalia, Santorum, Bill Bennett.

also i have heard Kerry and Kucinich talk about spirituality and both guys know a lot about Hinduism and they were very good at presenting their views as Catholics on life and how they are similar to views that Hindus, Buddhists etc share.

and while i am not religious myself and pretty much consider myself atheist on the issue of God i was impressed by how much Kerry knew about other cultures. he probably knows more about where my family comes from than i do. and it's one of the reasons i found him so appealing. he knows so much and loves to learn about different cultures.

[TayTay]

2. Not at all

You have read Jim Wallis' God & Politics, right? Excellent book. Came out in January. He resides a lot at sojourners.com. (Nice site.)

Let me think about this some more and get bck to you tonight. Excellent idea. I love it.

[sandnsea]

4. Exactly

I haven't read it, but one of our bloggers has and he talks about Wallis all the time. That's kind of where it hit us, duh, we need to blog on what these people are saying at least a few times a week. And have a section with the links to places like sojourners.com. What to call it because I still think the founding fathers wanted religion to flourish OUTSIDE of government. So that people would bring the VALUES into government, not the doctrine. But, considering where we're at today, if we don't pay attention to our liberal spiritual leaders, who will??

[ginnyinWI]

5. a first impression

I have is that you could call it "Voices from..." ---something, not sure what.
I mean, you want it to seem like input from the religious left, but not marching orders.

Voices from the Pew on the Left?

[kerrygoddess]

9. Interesting

Kind of like that. Maybe "Faith on the Left"

[ginnyinWI]

12. maybe

Voices of Faith on the Left

or just Faith Left

[kerrygoddess]

14. Simple is good

Faith Left

[k j]

36. again,

I'm thinking, "Voices from the Well"


but, I love the image/concept of the well for spirit.

[TayTay]

39. Welcom KJ

You are most welcome here!

Always great to welcome another Kerryfan.

[k j]

43. TayTay

Thank you much for the welcome. Came here via sandnsea and kerrygoddess. Staunch Kerry supporter here without a doubt.

[whometense]

10. Can I be a non-hostile, (slightly) dissenting

voice here?

I'm one of those suffering agnostic losers who feels very alienated by all the god-talk that's to be found in the political discourse thse days.

Does Faith & Politics sound okay, or does it sound like another roll your eyes, somebody else is pandering to the right wing zealots.

I guess I'm one of the eye-rollers. The thing is, I certainly don't mean to say you should do anything with me or those like me in mind. Or change anything. Just to confirm, since you asked and all, that people like me exist. It's a difficult subject to talk about without people getting defensive or feeling attacked. I'm very much from the live-and-let-live branch of the party.

I don't want to go into a declaration of faith or anything, but I was the small voice at the back of the room cheering when Kerry was talking about not wearing his faith on his sleeve. I'm not sure what that makes me, except a New Englander.

Sorry to be so incoherent. I'm not used to talking about this stuff, and find the words hard to come by.

[kerrygoddess]

11. Not at all hostile.. totally get where you are coming from

Personally I feel there are a lot of viable let's call them philosophers out there that speak to and of the values of the Dems.

I too cheered when JK said he didn't wear his faith on his sleeve. I grew up in MA in family that was Catholic/Episcoplian and not at all religious.

My business is based on New Age/Old World Spirituality and I firmly believe in religious freedom and separation of church and state.

However, I also get that all values/morals/principles come from somewhere. Also as someone who has studied a varied lot of theology, philosophy and spirituality for personal knowledge and interest I believe it's not about who's got the right message or the right beliefs or the right religion, it's all the same message deep down inside and it all leads to the same thing, one source, one higher power, call it God, Goddess, a rock, Mother Earth, the Great Spirit, Buddha, whatever.

So I guess my goal in what Sandy is talking about here is sharing some of the sources that I know of that speak to the liberals and the agnostics, the new agers, the old hippies, etc. These folks teach about our values. I'm talking Marianne Williamson, Deepak Chopra, Sam Keen, Don Miquel Ruiz, Dan Millman, Ram Dass, the Dalai Lama...

I hope that helps. I just think it's important to point to some sources of our values. We've Jim Wallis doing a good job for the Christians and some others like him, but there's a wealth of others amongst us, who actually were very popular during the good ole Clinton days. The NY Times bestseller lists were filled with books by the above mentioned and there was nothing wrong with our values then.

[whometense]

15. Okay, sure.

I understand that. I'm not an atheist, but I'm most definitely Christianed-out. I was raised Jewish, in a half-assed suburban now-you-see-it-now-you-don't kind of way. By that I mean my parents got religion when the kids were old enough to notice such things (or absence of them.) My best friend was Roman Catholic, and I remember sleeping over at her house and going to Mass with her on Sunday, in the days when it was still all in Latin. Great theater.

Maybe that's why my parents decided to up the Jewish quotient about then. Though I wasn't making noises about converting or anything.

The Christian right flat out gives me the creeps. This country may have been founded by Christian runaways, but that doesn't make it a Christian nation. I've always completely bought into the freedom of religion idea.

[kerrygoddess]

19. They give me the creeps too...

I grew up near Salem, so I wonder frequently about them getting out of hand and trying to float some of us with bricks ties on to us, to see if we're witches. Joking but not. There was a great documentary a few years ago called the Burning Times. Talk about changing the way you look at the Christians.

[TayTay]

24. Hey KG, I'm from Danvers

Where are you from originally. (Cuz I know tht you now reside in the Golden State.)

[kerrygoddess]

27. Tay, Tay... Gosh we were neighbors!

I'm from Newburyport! (West Newbury until I was 11). Small world.

One of my girlfriends is from Danvers. Class of '75 I think.

[TayTay]

38. My brother's class

a year ahead of me. Small world.

[kerrygoddess]

41. A year behind me!

Yes it is.

[sandnsea]

20. How about Philosophy?

Faith & Philosophy Something like that?

[k j]

33. Yep,

Faith and Philosophy has my vote. :)

(First impulse of mine was "Spirit Well" with a spin on the word 'well' as it could either mean 'from the well' ie drinking water... or 'well' as in wholeness and health.)

[kerrygoddess]

44. Works for me...

It's more inclusive.

[ginnyinWI]

13. I'm coming from a similar place

I am also an agnostic, and a former believer. I've been all over the religious map from right to left. But I'm still interested in the discussion of moral values and where they come from and why. I look at it from a psychological perspective, and also a philosophical one. When people talk about God, some talk about a person, others a kind of an infinite source of energy, so everyone can enter in on some level, I think. The key is to not be dogmatic about it, and let all voices join in. I think the pure teachings of Jesus are great, but that the Church corrupted them. I also appreciate Joseph Campbell's ideas on Myth and how it relates to religious faith.

So,to each his or her own. Religion serves a good purpose if it offers guidance to someone becoming a better and more fulfilled person. It doesn't if it keeps the person small and fearful. I rejected it for being the latter, but have come to appreciate the more liberal Christian denominations as something positive.

Yes, I'm with Kerry and old Abe Lincoln: don't wear your religion on your sleeve (just let it be seen in your actions).

[kerrygoddess]

16. Nail on the head!

The Church did corrupt them. If there is a way to show how the valyues all run along similar viens in the philosophical and psychological realm then we might get some where. I think a lot of Kerry supporters particularly are on the same path, talking the same realms, even JK himself.

The Bible when it comes down to it, is a book of mythology. Campbell get's that.

[whometense]

17. Wow, we really are sisters

at bottom! Recently I've found myself thinking, as I listen to the ravings of some wingnut fanatic on the tv news, wow, I'm a better Christian than these self-promoting freaks, and I'm not a Christian. I also think the pure teachings of Jesus are great. (They are also quite Jewish.)

[kerrygoddess]

18. They are quite Jewish!

I think a lot of us see ourselves as better Christians than them these days, whether we consider ourselves to be Christians or not. I don't really consider myself to be... I'm spiritually eclectic!

[ginnyinWI]

21. well, he was a Jew after all! lol

yeah, we're on the same page here, whometense! :pals:

Here's my brief religious bio: raised Lutheran as a child, got away from it in my teens, then joined the Jesus People movement in 1971, which actually turned out to be Charismatic/Fundamentalist. Stayed with that for a long time (in traditional Fundy and Pentacostal churches) while the kids were growing up. I used to listen to James Dobson on the radio everyday! :crazy:

Then I reached mid-life and just couldn't take it anymore. I just couldn't believe in their kind of a God anymore. So for at least ten years have been totally burned out on any sort of religion. My going back to college and my switch to the Democratic party happened at the same time--a mid-life awakening!
Recently have begun to realize that there is indeed a religious Left who are trying to follow what Jesus taught about taking care of the poor, and loving your neighbor and all of that, but without the weekly fire-and-brimstone stuff.
My extended family remains Fundy and Repub, so I feel like an orphan. :( But I'm a good source if anyone wants an insight into the Fundy mindset.

got to stop now--it's really late, even when you consider I'm on Central time!

[karynnj]

23. Not only Kerry and Abe Lincoln, you can add Jesus

Didn't Jesus criticize the people who simply made a show of praying in the temple and then acting badly. In the Good Samaritan the hero is the Samaritan who helped versus the observant people who didn't.

[ginnyinWI]

30. true

the New Testament warns you not to go out and pray where everybody can see you, (um, like the Schiavo protesters!) but to go home and pray in secret. And Jesus talked a lot about the Pharisees who are like whited sepulchers (tombs) on the outside, but inside are filled with rotteness (I always think of Jerry Falwell).

[karynnj]

22. I loved Kerry's comment about not wearing his religion on his sleeve too

His Abraham Lincoln quote of wanting to be on God's side was wonderful. I think a potential leader's values should be judged by the actions that he has taken in his/her life. Kerry has often used words that are values related, although not "religious" in the sense that he wasn't quoting the Bible. There were several times when he would say in response to questions on why he did something apolitical , "It was the right thing to do." Major parts of his anti-war testimony dealt with morality. My view was that he is an intensely moral, honest, principled man. He credits his parents and his religion.

My religious background was that I grew up in a large Catholic family in the Chicago area (Indiana). The particular priests in my church were pretty conservative and succeeded in driving me away. After many years, I felt the need for a religious affiliation. I ended up converting to Judaism, liking the social activism and because after a lot of thought I realized that I did not believe that Jesus was God. What is strange is that I would probably have never left a Catholicism as described by Kerry (or for that matter as Holy Cross explained the Jesuit principles behind their school during their tour.)

I then met and married a Jewish friend of one of my co-workers. We have three kids. Our kids all started Hebrew school at age 4 or 5 and stayed through their Bnai Mitzvahs. We took them to synagogue fairly regularly and they observed the various holidays.

The middle one, who will be attending Holy Cross, is intensely interested in theology. While studying for Bat Mitzvah, she read a huge number of books on religion - the Jewish ones were suggested by the Rabbi. She chose to get her D'var Torah, not explaining the Torah portion of the week, but a speech on the Jewish law as it relates to the Death Penalty. (Culminating in using a quote to infer that Texas is "a court of murders")

In spite of this, she did not feel really at home in Judaism. She looked at some of the new age religions, but rejected them quickly as having no substance. After a few years of reading more books (she has hundreds in her room) on Christianity than some people who have majored in the field, she has chosen to attend an Orthodox church and will convert soon. Her search for spirituality easily put my to shame. My husband and I support her completely and see that in most important ways her values are very similar to ours though her beliefs are, of course, different.

During the last election, She was for Kerry - though she was very put off that he was pushed to speak about religion. (Partially because she was tired of hearing he was an altar boy) She did have one interesting observation from being on the religion boards. She said some people felt that when Kerry said he accepted his church's belief that life begins at conception and then argues the separation of church and state, that some people felt this showed a complete lack of morality beyond that of people who accepted the legality of abortion, but argued the fetus was not a life. I think it has to do with the meaning of the word believe - where I take believe to mean "accept as an article of faith without proof" while the people on the boards were substituting the word "know", as in "If he knows life begins... In the first case, Kerry's position (which I agree with completely) is rational -he lives by what he accepts as true, but does not impose his beliefs on others. In the second case, they reach a conclusion that will be a problem for any Democrat who answers that there IS a life taken. (Hillary has it easier not being Catholic, but I believe she is going towards this same trap, whether she says it's a tragedy or not.)

I do think that there is a need to look at religion and politics, though I really would prefer very very strongly that the country remember it is secular. As so many people are making religion an issue, it's probably a good idea to carefully look at this.

[k j]

37. one way...

I go around the whole "do you believe in God" debate is to tell people either "I'm an American Taoist, whatever that is..." or else tell them I'm a Gnostic. I love the Gnostic Gospels and the word 'gnostic' basically means 'to know.' "As in, I know what I know, and what I know is inside me. Take that, you Religious Rightyiac." LOL (Not meaning you of course, I'm talking mostly about my in-laws and other folks I've met here in Rural Red Land.)

[TayTay]

40. I love the Gnostics

But I can understand why you couldn't build a structure on a belief that says that the world that we inhabit is so imporperly constructed that it is basically not real. (Strange stuff here.)

Doesn't make for a hierarchy now does it. No wonder Gnostics lost in the great faith debates and their Gospels were considered heresies.

[k j]

42. TayTay....

Yes, the whole "fallen pieces of light" is a bit strange. In fact, the idea of a bunch of Gnostics running around saying, "I know!" "Hey! I know too!" sort of reminds me of Democrats. ;)

[TayTay]

25. The study of religion is one of the great loves of my life.

Religion is one of the great forces in human life. There is almost nothing else that has been a greater force in determining the outcome of nations, social movements, etc.

That said, I am sort of an agnostic. (But in the broadest sense. I think there is wisdom in every religion. That is sort of syncretic and a deeply offensive thought to fundamentalists, but there you go.)

The study of religion in society can be, for a liberal, both a heartening and disheartening thing. The press gets so much of true relgion wrong, just flat out wrong. They make it sound as if it is easy to be, for example, a Christian. It is not. It is a transcendant experience that is supposed to (supposed to) dictate your behavior to others, to yourself and to God. Too much of the press coverage makes it sound like Christians are mental midgets and whack jobs. This is incorrect. But if the press says it enough times, then the press view becomes the defining view of the religion. This is wrong.

But religion has a strong place in liberalism. (That position should never, ever be jammed down someone's throat. Yuck!) Good Lord, take a look at the influence of Christianity on the abolition movement. (Ever read the Battle Hymm of the Republic. Pure Christian fundamentalist view of the End Times.) Religion was a deep and fundamental force in the civil rights movement. (The music world wouldn't be the same without influence of southern AA Gospel. One of the most powerful forces in America came from those roots.)

I would help in this in any way I can. (The study of religion as a social force fascinates me. I'm there. Wonky TayTay strikes again.) And hey, I live in the only state that used to be a Theocracy. We have monuments to how screwed up a concept that was. (Whew! Let's not try that again. Theocracy sucks.)

[sandnsea]

26. Yes, that's good

Include historical theology as well.

Interestingly, while Christianity played a large role in abolition; at the exact same time it was playing a large role in justifying slavery. What exactly is it about the south that keeps getting Christianty wrong?? If it is something about the south.

[kerrygoddess]

29. I think the South is stuck in the past...

If MA had not woken up and stopped the Witch Burnings the South would have jumped on that movement. The KKK always reminded me of the Witch Burning movement.

[TayTay]

32. It is inherent in the religion

There are the three Synoptic Gospels which are contemporary with Christ. These can be viewed, within the context of Judaism and the battle for the liberation of the area that was taking place during the time of Christ as liberation oriented. (Within a Jewish context.) That can give a great deal of comfort to those who seek to liberate.

The last Gospel is the book of John. This is not a Synoptic text. It was clearly written a hundred or more years after the last of the others and has a different look and feel. And it is the text from which most of the anti-Jewish sentiment that permeated Christianity came from. (It is a beautifully written gospel, no doubt, but whew, are there ever problems in it for dealing with non-Christians.)

The letters and espistles that follow the Gospels support a lot of the control problems that we have now. Once a movement gains power and followers it can become exacting, didactic and controlling. The problem of having rules and enforcing authority comes into play. This is standard stuff. But you can actually have a great many contradictions that can feed opposing sides in a debate. So it is here.

What the hell is TayTay talking about:
Best Religious Site on the Internet: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_ntb1.htm

Best site for problems with Synoptic Gospels and what the hell happned with that stuff anyway 2,000 years ago:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/

It's a start. And yes, this will be on the final exam.

[kerrygoddess]

28. Yes, there are monuments!

LOL! There's a whole town that is a testimony to how screwed up it was. Not just Salem, it radiated into other towns in the area.

Sounds like you and I have a lot of common Tay Tay. We'll have to swap notes.

So much music is rooted in Relgion, Jazz and Blues, the foundation of Rock. Just listen to Springsteen's the Rising and you hear the religious connotations through out the whole CD. Many have said that going to a Springsteen concert is like going to a Revival. He's one hell of a Preacher, the Boss is.

We're going backwards these days instead of forwards and that's a scarey thing. There's a lot of good stuff in the liberal movement that some many identify with and I think a lot of people are too afraid to talk about it, lest it is more misconstrued.

[k j]

35. Yep!!!

Did you see Bruce's intro of U2 in the 2005 Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? He (along with U2's playing!) was just simply fantastic. He said something like Bono had the most nakedly enduring messianic complexes in the history of rock and roll... after the laugher died down, Bruce looked over at Bono and said something like, "It takes one to know one."

Bruce IS the preacher man. The references to growing up Catholic are just everwhere in his lyrics.

[ginnyinWI]

31. I think you'd like Joseph Campbell

Bill Moyers interviewed him a bunch of years back--ever see them? Libraries have them. He was a philosopher and expert on world religions.

What fascinates me is how he sees all religions as bridges people of all faiths use to get to the same place--to a sense of the infinite, or Bliss, I think he called it. It really makes sense.

[k j]

34. Me too...

Have a fairly good library of books on religions, philosophy and myth right here at home.

Nice to feel at home here so quickly!