Lest we forget!

[ginnyinWI]

There's a good thread over in Elections summarizing all of the contradictions and irregularities in the 2004 election, all without belaboring us with charts and graphs! I have no doubt at all that John Kerry is our rightful president!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x335185

[politicasista]

1. Thanks ginny

I am sick of all the Kerry bashing that goes on at DU. It really turns me off. Yesterday, I was watching the State of the Black Union and Congressman Conyers was saying yesterday that had the outcome been different, there is no doubt we would be celebrating instead of fretting over the next four years of Smirky. That made me sad yesterday, but hopefully this can go somewhere.:hi:

[GRLMGC]

2. Yeah

people need to get over their feelings of "betrayal" (As if everything happens to them) and do something proactive. Sitting on you ass at the computer, bitching and eating Doritos does not contribute anything positive to society.

[TayTay]

3. I watched some of that on C-Span

That was fun! I loved the interaction between the speakers and the audience. It ws so free-wheeling. I also noted, ruefully, how the speakers were so angry at the Democrats and at being taken for granted. (I have disagreements with this, but the anger was undeniable.)

It's a shame that some other politicans werre not present at this event. I think the Dems could learn a lot from the passion and enthusiam that was in the room. There were a lot of intelligent remarks made about how aid is not getting to the right people, how some communities are getting ignored and worse. If only the national Dems could find a way to harness that energy, that wonderful way of speaking, we would be so much better off.

By speaking style, I mean the invoking of religious tradition without the awkwardness that a lot of white politicians have. I don't mean to scold white pols who are not southerners and didn't grow up breathing in this speaking style. But it is so rousing and intelligent and heartfelt that I think all Dem speakers should take a look. So many of the speakers yesterday effortlessly included religious references to taking care of your neighbors because it is the right and moral thing to do and extolling freedom and equality as qualities that emulate Christ. I just love that. That was a great presentation. I didn't get to watch all of it, but I saw a few hours of it and enjoyed it greatly.

Hey, any panel that has Rep conyers, Rev. Sharpton, Louis Farrakhan, Tavis Smiley and the former mayor of Detroit is going to be a lively time.

[politicasista]

4. This issue about whether Dems take us for granted

has always been an issue. Tavis and Minister Farrakhan have been the most vocal about this however with Farrakhan saying, "To hell with the Democrats," (Loud applause). I am trying to understand both sides of this issue, but sometimes I wonder if the last election was a wake up call for the Democratic Party that they have a lot of work to do between now and 2006 and 2008.

[TayTay]

8. Absolutely they do

As an observation, it seems to me that some AA's can be picked off on the so called-moral issues. So can all other minority voters in America. Didn't MLK's daughter march with the anti-gay crowd last month. Sigh! AA's are no more monolithic in thought than any other group. Dems have to work to appeal to all people and not take anyone for granted. (Plus, it's insulting, I mean really, it is.)

Plus, things have been getting better only incrementally for AA's in America and they remain most vulnerable to economic downturns. (That this is still true is so sad, I mean after all this time. Sigh!) But Dems have to be very careful. Pandering won't work. You can't stride into a community once every four years (or so) and proclaim how much you care and then disappear. That is fakery and people see right through it. Sigh again! One of the things that I like about Kerry is his support for Small Business loans in minority communities as a leg up for people. These programs are now on the * cut list. That's stupid beyond words. But Kerry has to go where the people who are affected by this live and make the case NOW! (He has been a good lib in this regard, but there has to be a way to talk the talk as well.)

What are your thoughts?

[politicasista]

11. I agree.

The Democratic Party needs to understand that pandering will not work anymore. Hopefully Doc Dean will realize that. Actions speak louder than words. Tavis also said the reason that Kerry lost was because "he bring up the word GOD and didn't motivate his base." Some argued that Clinton was great an inspiring people to want to go to the polls and vote for him, all the complaints I heard was we don't like Kerry, he doesn't connect with me, but I want * out. I think some were spoiled by Clinton and that ABB thing and so called * bashing may have helped * and hurt our cause more.

Any more thoughts?

[TayTay]

15. It's that Northeast liberal thing

And it is a legit thing to bring up in this context. We in New England are very hesitant to bring up God and religion in a public venue. It's not that people around here are not believers, it's just that it sounds fake to us when the topic is brought up in public. (That is generations of social conditioning speaking. LOL!) Religion is a deeply felt, but a deeply personal and private matter. NE-ers would regard the topic as a social faux pas, and an attempt on the part of the speaker to set themselves 'above' others by showing they are more pious. (That would be seen as fakery, pure and simple. Real religious feeling is shown in actions, not words in this context. Real belief means that you walk humbly before God and don't draw attention to yourself as a better Christian than someone else. That is just simply not done.)

If Kerry runs again, he is going to have to solve this dilemma in a decisive way. I have often wondered how he would re-brand himself if he ran again. He would, obviously, have to open up more. If he can't do that, then he shouldn't run again. But there will be a cost. (You don't just shake off conditioning like that, it has a cost to the soul.)

This showing of the heart would help in connecting to the Dem base and to connecting with minority voters. (Well, all voters. He was perceived, fairly or not, as cold. That must change or another race would be in vain.) He needs to show up and tout what he has done for minority education efforts, small business creation, crime control efforts, family services support and other things that affect people on a daily basis. He has a good record on this, but he has to bring it up more. Then tell people what you will do for them. Then try and do it. Then scream as loudly as possible when those actions are blocked by conservatives. (This is advice for all Dems, not just Kerry.) And it would be nice if he could bring along a press secretary or two when he goes to minority churches and speaks. Cuz he does now and has done so for his whole professional life. If you don't tell people what you've done, they won't know. But, see, it's in a church and religion is a private matter. Except, that people want to know what you believe. But if you tell them and use scriptural references, then you might be trying to appear above yourself. and... (do you see where I'm going with this?)

Well, it's a beginning of a conversation.

[politicasista]

16. Thanks Tay Tay, hope I didn't offend you

I live in the South and Kerry had a lot of support down here. I felt it was a mistake by the campaign to ignore the South. I guess I am just sad that Kerry can't be president. I don't know why people want 2004 to be his only chance, but he was cool with me, sure mistakes were made. He would have made a good president, but I guess too many were too busy complaining during the election. You guys have a nice haven here away from those evil people at GD.

[ginnyinWI]

17. well, he needs to remain his authentic self, I think

I don't really think it is necessary for him to wear his religion on his sleeve. It would seem like an "Al Gore" transformation. He, and all Dems, just need to speak out more forcefully about moral injustice--speak out with moral outrage at what has been going on, more than they have been. He doesn't need to get into his own specific religious beliefs. That can be a trap, because everyone's religious perspective is a little different, and it can be divisive. What is more uniting is our basic American values, which religion contributes to. I think Dean has talked about this: we don't need to change, we just need to get our message out.

I think Lakoff is right on this: concentrate less on getting facts and figures out to convince people intellectually to vote for you, and focus on showing, with feeling, what you believe in and value, and contrast your character with the other candidate. Get them to indentify with you emotionally. I think Cheney, especially, but also Bush, concentrated on casting doubt on our guys' characters and capacities, rather than their own record. They told outright lies, and people believed. If you go back and watch the debates you will see it in action. Our guys would explain the facts of what Bushco was doing wrong, and they would come back with some accusation about Kerry or Edwards being incompetent in some way. Character issues. They barely defended their own actions, just kept pounding away and casting doubt about their opponents.

We need to start taking them down, all of them, right now! Not just Bush, because he's outta here, but the repub hypocrisy of pretending they care about the middle class.

[ginnyinWI]

5. turns out that...

If you go to the link posted in the thread and read almost to the end, the author is a Kucinich supporter, and asserts that Kerry/Edwards were involved in throwing the election! :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:

So I posted an objection to that! That is the most ridiculous idea, and not supported by any facts. Sigh (again). We need a smilie for "sigh"--I use it so much! I guess :eyes: will have to do!

[elshiva]

13. This is the new lefty freeper junk theory that they threw

the election like JK and Dubya are buddies cos of Skull and Bones. Give me a break! So sad that it was written by a "Koochie." I don't think Kucinich would go in for this crap, would you think so?

[ginnyinWI]

18. no, the Dem leaders are not a party to this kind of crap

It's their small-minded followers who don't see how damaging they are being. Why can't they support all the good Dems who are fighting for the same things? Dean, and Kucinich, all of them were at the convention supporting Kerry/Edwards. :eyes:

[elshiva]

21. Yep, Dean and Kucinich were all one happy family

at the DNC 2004!

[Firespirit]

6. Not a chance of forgetting.

I've been working on it in some form ever since the middle of November, when I first started to believe that there had been fraud. Number-crunching, then (post 1/6/05) designing some things to make electronic mischief virtually impossible.

Believe me, I'm not going to forget. And I'm not going to fail my candidate again. :pals: If they are still involved in legal actions related to that travesty of a recount (and they are), then reminding ourselves of what happened is the least we can do.

[ginnyinWI]

7. thanks for your efforts, Firespirit

I know I speak for all the Kerrycrats--thanks for hanging in the fight. :)

[Hans Delbrook]

9. Amen

Thanks to people like you whoa re carrying on the fight while people like me (hang head in shame) were mired in depression.

[Firespirit]

10. Don't be ashamed.

Depression is nothing to be ashamed of, and I wouldn't wish anyone to experience the emotions that I experienced last year and still experience to some degree. Like I said, initially I brushed off the reports of fraud myself, but I couldn't ignore them forever.

I just took this extremely personally, regarded it as a personal failure, because of my area of expertise and the fact that I'd followed it for two or three years but had been counting on others to save the day. I recall actually giving a persuasive speech in summer of 2001, for my freshman speech class, about election reform. Then when I actually obtained some expertise in security, I sat on my butt and didn't use it. One thing I don't have on my conscience is that I never blamed Kerry; he was quite rightly concentrating on his campaign and not on this sort of thing.

There's a back story to this, one that's remarkably similar, about the high school graduation of one of my best friends, who was defrauded of being valedictorian because the person who was valedictorian had been bribing teachers and administrators for higher grades. I knew about it and didn't do anything until it was too late and there were no documents to prove it. So. Not happening again. I'm not going to let my friends down a THIRD time. :(

[Hans Delbrook]

14. Hey, now don't you be too hard on yourself!

You've learned from a mistake and now you're using that experience for good! You're my hero!:yourock:

[politicasista]

12. Thanks Ginny.

:bounce:

[texpatriot2004]

19. Hi FireSpirit, I won't forget the second stolen election either

I like your orange ribbon, the "no more hacked elections." Where did you get it? I want one too.

[Firespirit]

20. Hi tex..

I just modified one of the existing ribbon avatars that you'll find all over the web because it was actually less work for me to do that than to search for an existing orange ribbon. And by all means, download the graphic (right click and "Save Image") for yourself.