Sort of OT: This is just bloody PERFECT.

[Firespirit]

Or not.

Saudis Say They Might Back Sunnis if U.S. Leaves Iraq

(I can't get the link to work unless I post it outright like this. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/13/world/middleeast/13saudi.html)

Is this what it's come to? Threats by the House of Oil that they will start a region-wide war that will spread through the whole Middle East, unless we continue to sacrifice American blood?

Not to mention that they're unlikely to keep their end of a "deal." I suspect that they are covertly aiding the violence already.

I sincerely hope that JK can accomplish something over the Middle East trip. He can if anyone can, but honestly, though, I am not holding my breath waiting for it.

I'm sure that the nutball Rapturists are squeeing with glee over this. In their minds, it's one step closer to the Battle of Armageddon. A conflagration in the whole Middle East serves their sick, deranged, genocidal purposes perfectly. Too bad for the rest of us that there is already one nuclear power there (Israel) and another in the making.

Thanks so much, George Bush. I guess it wasn't enough to allow a major American city and its adjoining booming metropolis to be all but obliterated. It wasn't even enough to literally destroy one country and seriously damage another. This evil megalomaniac and his oil friends are going to send the most volatile region of the world into utter chaos. This is far, far worse than Vietnam ever thought of being.

[ProSense]

1. Only thing to say is:

It's beginning to look like collusion. What kind of threat is that from the Saudis? Bush considered staying the course with the same (only more likely real) results, slaughter of the Sunnis:

U.S. Considers Ending Outreach to Insurgents

Besides, why the hell should the Saudis play a role in the common sense decision to get American troops out of Iraq's civil war! They sound like they're spewing the neocons' line! Also, the Saudis are already funding the Sunnis:

Saudi Arabia: Iraq a major terror base

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/12/07/africa/ME_GEN_Iraq_Insurgency_Saudi.php">Officials say Saudis major provider of finance to Iraqi Sunni insurgents


Hi Firespirit! :)

[wisteria]

2. This is a lot to digest. I will have to read it carefully before commenting.

I believe I also read that the Saudi's are against any talks with Iran. Makes me wonder who is calling some of the shots.

[ProSense]

3. This is the reality

Dying for 'Maybe'

By Richard Cohen
Wednesday, December 13, 2006; Page A21

James A. Baker III, the renowned foreign policy realist, looked realism in the eye -- and blinked. The Iraq report he co-authored with Lee Hamilton recommended many things, but shied from the most realistic one of all: Get the hell out as soon as possible.

Snip...

As for the rest of this nightmare scenario, who knows? It's likely that Sunnis and Shiites would battle it out, but that's what they are already doing. A U.S. withdrawal will make things worse, of course, but America has to withdraw sooner or later, and then the civil war that our guys have (barely) managed to contain will break out with a vengeance. We cannot stop it; we can only delay it -- at the cost of more American lives. As for Iraq's loathsome neighbors -- Iran and Syria -- you could argue that they have a stake in keeping Iraq stable, lest a flood of refugees swamp them both.

The truth is that no one knows what will happen to Iraq if U.S. troops pull out more or less precipitously because, among other things, no one knows what's going on in Iraq now. (See the Baker-Hamilton report for depressing details.) My guess is that the civil war will deepen and that Iraq, after having history imposed on it by Brits in pith helmets, will make its own history. Maybe the Kurdish region will go its own way, taking its oil with it. Maybe the Shiites in the south will embrace Iranian hegemony -- or maybe they will remember they're not Persians who speak Farsi but Arabs who speak Arabic, and resume the old enmity. Maybe Osama bin Laden will buy a condo in Baghdad. Maybe, maybe, maybe.

Maybes are not sufficient reason for Americans to continue to die. Baker, the realist, understood that back when he was George H.W. Bush's secretary of state. The United States ended the Persian Gulf War with Saddam Hussein still in power, the Republican Guard mostly intact and with enough helicopter gunships to massacre as many as 150,000 Shiite insurrectionists in the south. The United States encouraged the rebellion and then, shamefully, looked the other way. You could argue that we fight a war today because we refused to really fight one the first time around.

more...

[ProSense]

4. Withdrawal:

It's the sensible writing on the wall!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3015066&mesg_id=3015066

[sandnsea]

5. They won't, and shouldn't, let Iran take over

That is the exact problem of pulling out, the war will spill over into the rest of the region. Iran has most certainly been aiding the Shi'ites, so I don't think it's reasonable to put a different expectation on Saudi Arabia and the rest of the region. We've got a truly terrible mess and there really aren't any easy answers.