Another thread about Kerry running - Another series of strong

[Mass]

reactions by anti-Kerry people, pro-Hillary or not. My question:


Kerry is the only one people ask not to run. This puzzles me.

That you do not want him to win is one thing, but, if he is as bad as people claim, whether he runs or not should not make any more difference than Biden or Vilsack running?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2232292&mesg_id=2232386

[beachmom]

1. I just told the "operatives" to get over themselves

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2232292&mesg_id=2232470

[wisteria]

2. Well, it doesn't make any sense unless you consider he may just

be popular enough and smart enough to get the nomination again. I can think of no other reason for all these attacks against him. If he doesn't have a chance, people don't like him and his loss was all his fault, why all the fuss? These people have to be worried about something.

[Mass]

3. Half of the people in the thread have supported Bill and Hillary in

the recent days. It is very telling about who she thinks may be her worst ennemy.

[wisteria]

4. Yes, I think you are absolutely right. n/t

[beachmom]

5. Do you think this is payback for the Take Back America conference?

That was not a great moment for her. She was booed, and he gave it to her. He was reasonably good at the Student forum, but he needs to come up with something hard hitting to counteract this "didn't fight back" business. I feel like he's conceding the point -- that he should have thrown more money at the lies -- which is fine if he can pin something on them. I think he should maybe use BLM's reasoning -- why didn't the Clintons defend their legacy in '02? Why did they wait FIVE YEARS?

[Mass]

6. No pay back here. A long term strategy. With a few exceptions,

her people were already there in 04 whining about Kerry and how he did not connect and all this BS. They were never fully onboard with Kerry (remember Bill pushing his wife as president during interviews for his book in August 04). They were the most vociferous about the "do not connect" after Nov 04 (even if I dont see how she connects better, but it was a way to push away Kerry without pushing Hill in front of the pack too early), and they are there now.

A long term strategy by the Clinton people to gain the WH back (which they could not have done with Gore or Kerry president).

[WildEyedLiberal]

10. Bingo. n/t

[AtomicKitten]

7. I have been nudged to comment.

I'd like to think that nobody here at DU is anti any Democrat, but that isn't true and perhaps not possible. From my perspective, I am learning to stay clear of homage threads if I don't have anything nice to say, with the exception of commenting on current news. I have expressed my POV that I am not happy with Kerry's response to the Swift Boat liars and that precludes me from supporting another run by him in 2008. That doesn't mean I think any less of Kerry. What that is is a commentary on the insipid mean-spirited, morally bankrupt GOP Wrecking Machine.

I would like to think anybody is entitled to run if they want without derision but, again, that doesn't seem to hold water here at DU. The problem is tolerating another POV, trying to change that opinion with a blizzard of factoids, not understanding that that has already been digested with the resultant POV already in place. Other than dispelling the myths about candidates that are pervasive in some instances, all we can do is debate respectfully and let the chips fall where they may.

I am not responsible for how others commune here and can only try to be sensitive to other POV, a particular grace I am still working on. I find that much easier when people are respectful of my POV. Primary season is coming up and I have been warned from a variety of sources that that particular time is brutal here at DU. There will always be some that are nasty no matter what, but what we can do is take stock of ourselves and try to tout our candidate of choice respectfully, noninvasively, and with a bit of humor.

May the best candidate win the nomination.

[wisteria]

8. I certainly hope so. That is what I am out to see happen.

Thanks for sharing your POV.

[AtomicKitten]

12. if that is true

I would ask that you examine how you talk about other possible contenders.

My point is larger than the candidates. My point is that ultimately we may be faced with a candidate chosen in the primary, and it will be a hell of a lot easier to support that candidate in the general and not have to make a 180-degree turn from the nastiness we've posted here if we tone it down now.

I have made the mistake of lumping in this case Kerry supporters together with a negative view based on the bad behavior of a few, and I will take more care in doing so in the future.

[beachmom]

14. Nothing wrong with anti-Hillary POLICY rhetoric

I happen to disagree with Mrs. Clinton on the Iraq War, and I don't plan to tone that down. She is not the right person to head our party if she sticks with what she is saying now -- criticism of the conduct of the war while essentially wanting to "stay the course". It does make me wonder if she believes what she's saying or it's all a matter of political calculus.

I think personal attacks on her are immature and pointless, but there is no way any side is going to hold their gunfire in this open primary race in regards to REAL POLICY questions.

We went through a pretty nasty primary Senate race in Virginia, and Allen took all of the personal attacks on Webb coming from Harris Miller and made them his own (Webb is sexist and antisemitic). So it will be a delicate balance. But I think Kerry's (and ours) criticisms of Hillary will be mostly coming from the left, and probably wouldn't be used by the GOP in the General.

[AtomicKitten]

17. I agree.

and I am glad you are being fair enough to discern the difference

[wisteria]

15. When she stops promoting herself at others expense, then I will adjust

my comments. My comments are honest and represent my extreme disappointment in her. Sorry if you are sensitive to my opinion and in certain case -the facts.
You will notice, I do not comment on other candidates. I may express an opinion over something they have proposed, but that is where it ends. I'm sorry that Senator Clinton behaved the way she did, she knows what she is doing, and for that reason I do not feel inclined to take back my statements about her.

[AtomicKitten]

16. you have no insight into what you are doing

You are making excuses for your caustic rhetoric. Every possible candidate will promote themselves at others' expense. That is unavoidable and the balance of things. You have to be able to view this from others' shoes. You can't possibly be happy with the way some people talk about JK. Imagine that when you post about others. If you expect truth and fairness about JK, you must exhibit that yourself in talking about other candidates. Now you are rationalizing your nasty comments, and until you gain some insight into that, you will be standing still and things will just get uglier. If you really want to make these boards less nasty, and it is only going to accelerate, try some judicious censorship. Or not.

[wisteria]

19. I am expressing the truth. I will not be silent while she tries to steal

the thunder of others. I normally do not take part in any Clinton bashing,I stay out of the polls, I stay out of the policy threads, etc, but this was over the line in my opinion. What is wrong with expressing dissatisfaction with someone? Are we to have pointless praising posts just to please the sensitive ones among us? Again, you accuse me of being caustic on a regular basis when this is not true. Perhaps, you misunderstand what defending a candidate means. She attacked Kerry and that meant it was fair to criticize her. You fail to see my point of view in this, and you won't even meet me half way. I think this conversation is going nowhere at this point, so I will end it here.

[karynnj]

11. Thank you for this post

As in the other thread, I agree that trashing the other candidates for the sole purpose of futhering your own is counter productive. It hurts everyone.

I agree with your last sentence, may the best candidate win.

[AtomicKitten]

18. no, thank you

You have really helped open my eyes and caused me to be more discerning when it comes to individuality as opposed to groupthink.

[AtomicKitten]

32. ignore my post above - I was clearly misled

It won't happen again.

[Mass]

35. I am very confused by the exchange. I posted this thead as an answer to

a post that was asking explicitely to Kerry not to run.

Some people may be a little agressive in defending Kerry, but I imagine it comes with the fact that we have all been burnt by senseless attacks against Kerry and that we tend sometimes to answer to stridently to attacks, without making a difference between the ones that come from people who are just in disagreement with something and the ones that come from serial Kerry-bashers.

I was going to answer to your last post, but I am at a loss to answer.

[ProSense]

9. All these people have ulterior motives:

It's all driven by their support for another candidate. Period!

[AtomicKitten]

13. live it - learn it - believe it

Instead of turning people against the entire Kerry camp and a possible candidacy of Kerry himself with bad behavior, you have the power to change the tone.

What goes around comes around. If you want what's coming back to you to be better, it starts with you. Many people will not separate out your tone from the rest of the Kerry camp and that is not fair to the rest of the JK supporters. I hope you at least agree with that.

[ProSense]

20. What do you mean turning people against a possible candidacy?

That is exactly the kind of response I expect from you. I have much too much respect for Senator Kerry to want to be linked to him as a supporter who resorts to personal attacks and disingenuous comments! Having said that, I will not stand for attacks on me personally and will continue to call out baseless attacks on the Senator's record.

On the other hand, you have resorted over and over again to vicious name-calling when presented with facts that you cannot refute!

There seems to be a prevailing notion with some of the constant critics that Senator Kerry's supporters not allowed to defend his record as vigorously as they defend the candidate they support.

If the tone of the debate is to change, it will require respect for the facts, which doesn't preclude anyone from having an opinion!

[AtomicKitten]

21. let me just say this

I have been snotty to other Kerry supporters because of the way you act. I have seen the light in that regard and have taken steps to remedy that mistaken impression. If you had any respect for your co-supporters and for John Kerry himself, you would not act the way you do.

But nobody is going to be able to convince you of that. That sort of insight comes from within, and it is pretty clear you don't have the right stuff.

I suggest a mutual ignore because I have nothing further to say to you.

[ProSense]

22. Please don't pretend you respect anyone!

I haven't been "snotty" to anyone because you're completely disingenuous. You are here trying to plead for unity and still insulting people!

[WildEyedLiberal]

23. What do you mean by "bad behavior"?

The only thing that unifies the "Kerry group" is support of Kerry. Well, that's not the ONLY thing, but politically speaking, it's true. There are people here who are very left and do not like the Clintons. There are people here who are more centrist and like the Clintons and do not like the left. Lately, a lot of us are pissed at Hillary Clinton because of her comments insinuating that Democrats "need to learn to fight back" - well, coming from Hillary, who has made a deliberate point of staking out a centrist image and promoting the idea of compromise with the Republicans, that just strikes a lot of us as false. And it's certainly not "bad behavior" or unfair or caustic for any of us to say so.

I have never called Hillary Clinton a DINO, Republican-lite, a corporate whore, or any base vulgar slur like that, and I won't. But I will criticize her words, her actions, and her positions if I disagree with her - and yes, it's perfectly valid to question her motives. That is not unfair. I will also criticize other Dems' actions if I do not agree with them. That is, as they say, politics.

I have never made any pretense to hide that I am an ardent Kerry supporter or that I will campaign vigorously for him in 2008. Primaries are not for the weak - I'm not saying that because I think it's going to be fun, I'm saying it because it's true. Other people question the motives of John Kerry, personally attack him, and make negative posts about him all the time, all because they do not want him to win the nomination in 2008. Yes, I'm going to fight that - forcefully. And yes, I'm going to point out what I don't like about other candidates. That's what happens in a primary. If they are going to invest their time and effort in taking Kerry out, it would be foolhardy to play nice. Given your take on the Swift Boat situation, I would expect you to understand that.

I do NOT intend to Swiftboat any other candidate, and I have not. I don't lie about other candidates. I don't namecall other candidates. But if you expect us to not point out their deficiencies - as so many on DU are so eager to do with Kerry - then you are essentially asking us to fight with one hand tied behind our back. In other words, what's acceptable for other candidate supporters is not acceptable for us. We are disadvataged even now, because I see plenty of outright lies about Kerry on DU all the time, while I can honestly say I've never seen any Kerry supporter purposefully and blatantly spread untruths about any other Dem. If it has happened, I have never seen it.

I made my admittedly angry comments to you the other day because honestly, your comments to anyone who posted what YOU deemed to be unfair criticisms of Hillary were snippy, rude, and patronizing. Before you advise others to change their tone, you should look in the mirror. I am not trying to pick a fight with you now, but please take your own advice re: improving the level of discourse at DU. I would never have responded to you if you hadn't made the comments you did.

[AtomicKitten]

24. did it occur to you that my post was not intended for your consumption?

Since it wasn't in response to anything you wrote, I would think that was obvious. And since one of YOUR posts was deleted the other day, I'd reassess your own behavior before casting aspersions.

I have come to the conclusion with the help of some let's just say more reasonable Kerry supporters is that I had formulated an overall bad impression of Kerry supporters based on a few bad apples, so to speak. I have taken steps to remedy that.

And that's really all I have to say to you.

[ProSense]

25. This is a discussion board!

People are allowed to respond to comments by other posters! You have been responsible for entire subthreads being deleted. You should take your own advice!

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. Yeah, but she's civil and we're "bad apples."

Projection is such a wonderful thing, isn't it? :eyes:

[karynnj]

30. My apologies to everyone

After a number of none productive fights with ATomic Kitten, I tried to get her to see that in general we were not guilty of the type of candidate bashing that will cause people to hate Democratic candidates they are not supporting. I gave her the link - I thought to the referenced thread - but probably gave her the one here. I am really sorry because this has completely backfired. I never thought she would think we can't prefer Kerry to other candidates in the Kerry group.

I apologize.

I do agree 100% with the first post - that senseless bashing of other candidates is counterproductive. I also think we do it far less than any other people on the board.

[AtomicKitten]

31. for clarification (not that that matters to you folks here)

I didn't realize this was the Kerry forum - I just followed the link.

I, in fact, do not think that you can't prefer Kerry to other candidates on this forum nor anywhere else on DU for that matter. That is an absurd, presumptuous, inflammatory statement to make.

As I mentioned below, I have never been to this forum before and will not come again; didn't realize I was here in the first place.

Proceed with the trashing. I should have known better. The Kerry clan's bad reputation at DU prevails. Well done.

[WildEyedLiberal]

33. YOU started with the rudeness in here. Not me, not ProSense.

If anyone is going to get a bad reputation from this little debacle, it's you and your incessant rude, vicious, and hypocritical posts.

[WildEyedLiberal]

26. Thanks for proving my point.

I don't think you have ANY business lecturing anyone about civility. I TRIED to be civil in my response and you respond with this catty, childish bullshit? "I wasn't talking to you"? Are you five years old?

You are rude, patronizing, and condescending and you just proved it in this post. Taking advice on proper DU behavior from you would be like taking advice on compassion from George W. Bush. I'm so sorry I thought you actually came into this board with sincere motives. Thanks - I'll never overestimate you again, you can be sure of that.

Take your double standards and shove them.

[Blaukraut]

28. Atomic Kitten, this is the Kerry forum

I've followed your posts outside in GD and GDP and you are definitely as guilty as some of our more passionate Kerry supporters in losing your cool and becoming personal in your attacks. Tempers get heated, and we all understand this. What I don't understand, however, is why you feel the need to come into our safe haven to lecture us on how you think we should conduct ourselves. That's just not cool.

[AtomicKitten]

29. I was asked via PM to comment here by a Kerry supporter.

Otherwise I have and will continue to stay out of your niche here at DU.

On edit: And I will also utilize the ignore function to preclude any further participation on my part in flame wars. I never claimed to be the epitome of civility; I along with a few others across these boards have made a pact to try to improve the situation, and that's my motivation. If we are successful, that would be cool.

[TayTay]

34. Well, this whole this was an exercise in uselessness

1. No matter what the primaries in '08 are going to be nasty. Primaries are about investing yourself in a candidate and working for that person and that can become emotional. It happened in '04 and it will happen in '08, perhaps even more so.

2. Politics is an ugly and messy game that has winners and losers. The losers never forget a slight. They never have. In some respects, nobody ever buries the hatchet, you just put it away until next time. That is the nature of the game, especially one that asks people to make emotional investments of time, energy, imagination and commitment.

3. There is nothing that can be done in advance to make DU a saner and less hostile place for the '08 primaries. It's a nice fluffy thought and everyone, on an intellectual level at least, wants this. There is no chance in hell that this will happen because real people will be talking about this online and real people form real opinions. Nobody wants the viciousness and there is no way to avoid it. That is politics. Toughen up.

4. It is up to the winner of any race to reach out to the other candidates and give them a reason to come aboard. Sometimes the reason is as simple as the greater good, sometimes it can be through appeals to mutual goals etc. The candidate that survives '08 primaries will, of course, have to make a strong reason for other people to come aboard the Good Ship Democrat. It was ever so. It is naive to think otherwise. Cheeses, people care about this stuff on a near cellular level. The idea that it can suddenly become some academic and intellectual study group thing is just silly. That's not how human being think or act.