Excellent post on dKos about the Torture Bill

[beachmom]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/14/10551/5044#c22

I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but I want to see Sen. Kerry come out against this bill, the sooner the better. Bush and McCain et al can fight all they want -- the bill is UNWORKABLE. Democrats need to STAND UP for American values and dismiss this bill out of hand. If Harry Reid won't do it, can we get some of the more liberal members to -- Durbin, Feingold, Kerry? This is an historical moment, and someone needs to seize it. I'm hoping it'll be John Kerry.

[karynnj]

1. It may be that the situation is

that now, when Warner/Graham/McCain are being hit hard by the Bush administration, Senators against more in the bill may feel it is not the time to publicly attack them. Because the alternative is still being worked on, it might be more productive for a Senator to privately tell one of the 3 Senators which things go over a line he can't cross.

I do see the danger you speak of - of Senators accepting the unacceptable because it is less unacceptable than the alternative. We've all seen that line of thought on IWR. (Here though the moral issue is far clearer - and would be the biggest flip flop Senator Kerry could ever make and seeing that he JUST used that line on Bush, I doubt he's the least tempted.)

[TayTay]

2. I think Sen. Feinstein is point on this for the Dems

for the actual floor management of any bills changing American law.

The Democrats were united against this in Committee. This was a Republican passed bill in committee. If the REthugs get their act together and really do try to pass this, then the Dems should filibuster it. Period. (This bill goes against the Constitution of the United States on a very basic level. It says, in effect, that we value civil liberties except when the ruling party thinks we are in crisis and then rights become optional.)

[sandnsea]

3. They're truly going nonpartisan on this

From reading this article, it sounds like the plan is to let Warner, Graham and McCain hash it out with Bush and that the Geneva Conventions is of specific concern. Negroponte is also fighting for torture - surprise surprise - so they've got that too. But it sounds like the Dems are going to wait to say anything on this bill until those 3 have their chance. I think that's a good approach to take, for the moment.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/14/america/web.0914spy.php

[beachmom]

4. Now Colin Powell has come out against it:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14814940

I have to say I disagree that Dems should wait. It's like we only have one party with Republicans fighting Republicans with Dems sitting out the debate. Maybe strategically, you're right, but morally I am very disappointed in Dems. And if it's Feinstein who should do it, that's fine, but for crying out loud, they need to have a position.

[sandnsea]

5. More important to get it right

I think that's the take on it, try to keep politics out of it and force people to THINK. What they're asking for is appalling and I think that will come through more clearly if it's a Republican fight first. This is too important to lose in a partisan fight, so I think it's okay to go this way for a few days.

[beachmom]

6. Good point, Sandy.

I have to say I am very upset about this bill, and perhaps my emotions are ahead of my head. It is so DAMNED devious of the president to submit a bill to Congress to legalize torture. I also commented on Kerry's LTTE above, but perhaps it's best to wait for this bill to go on the floor of the Senate so I can get his full take. It also might die (McCain's), and then it'll be easy to vote nay on it.

[TayTay]

7. It my (possibly mistaken) understand that this starts up later on today

and that there should be a very interesting discussion on the Senate floor about it. Let's see what gets introduced and who speaks first on it. The dimbulb DeMint checked in on the subject of torture a little while ago. He's not against it, then again, it ain't happening to him either.

[beachmom]

8. The McCain/Warner/Graham bill just passed committee

I have a feeling this "victory" of "defying the WH" is short lived.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aothcPLzAytM&refer=us

Legal guys at this website still say the bill is not good:

http://balkin.blogspot.com/

They're comparing what's going on in Congress as "Weimarization", as in the German government that preceeded Hitler, and for which gave him the loopholes to seize power. That analogy just gives me the warm fuzzies . . .

Also, here on dKos -- Harry Reid has declared Spector's wireless bill dead:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/14/184331/715