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Need help fighting wingnut on local blog -- did Kerry miss the vote

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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:45 AM
Original message
Need help fighting wingnut on local blog -- did Kerry miss the vote
for the armor that is in that votevets.org ad? I have no clue which vote it was, or how to look it up. The wingnut said Kerry missed the vote -- the beauty is I'm going to win the argument either way. Because Allen is a senator who wants to run for president, and now cannot since he'll miss votes!!! Or . . . the guy is dead wrong on the vote. Help!!
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. He provides this link -- is it correct?
http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=108&session=1&vote=00116

Oh, I think he's wrong, and has the wrong bill, because it has a "yea" for Allen. Hmmm . . . let me research.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yea was the bad vote on this.
The bill to provide, among other things, better body armor for our troops was proposed. The Republicans did not want it to come to a vote. They used parliamentary procuedre to kill it. The bill was 'tabled' which means it was cast aside and would not be reconsidered.

The vote to not provide money for body armor was the 'Yea' vote. The vote to get the bill up for a vote and to provide funds for body armor was the 'no' vote. (Yes, the Senate is a weird place.) I have not looked into this, but if a 'point of order' on this was raised because it was a bill about raising money, then the 'Motion to Table' might have needed 3/5ths of the Senate to approve, which this bill fell far short of getting. (Yes, the Senate is it's own reality.)
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, he did.
He was campaigning. As is customary with such things, which happen to Democrats and Republicans alike, Mr. Kerry checked with his leadership to make sure he wasn't the deciding vote on this before he okayed his absence. Tom Daschle, Sen. Dem leader at the time, announced from the floor that Kerry was 'necessarily absent' and would have voted 'No' on the measure, which would have then failed 52-48. Kerry's absence did not affect the outcome.

This is a matter of public record and is stated in the Congressional Record.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 08:14 AM
Response to Original message
4. Thanks, Tay. Here was the debate from a little VB blog:
http://www.blogger.com/publish-comment.do?blogID=23585973&postID=115815477660138925&r=ok

My original comment:

beachmom1 said...
If the Dems win big this November, this ad will represent the turning point of the campaign. It is powerful, truthful, and the image tells it all.

It's all over the liberal blogosphere, with unanimous raves.

Here's John Kerry's post on HuffPost about the leader of the VoteVets.org group, a very touching story:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-kerry/a-friend-of-mine-jon-sol_b_29364.html



Insider said . . .

Shame John Kerry didn't even bother to vote on what the ad talked about.


10:04 PM


beachmom1 said...
Insider,

First -- the vote was to table the amendment -- which essentially means kill it, which means no armor. I assume you have figured that out, but just in case you didn't, that was how the vote worked. Allen voted to table it.

Your second point was interesting indeed -- you're essentially saying that no senator may run for president, because they will inevitably miss votes. So based on this reasoning, Mr. Allen should:

a. Resign from the Senate immediately, so that he may persue his dream full time of becoming president of these here United States (cough, baa haaa, cough)

b. Give up his dream of POTUS, and remain a Senator, not missing any votes so that Insider will be satisfied.

You make the choice. And if you don't like the two choices, then stop being a hypocrite by bashing Dems for doing what a Republican would have to do in the same situation.

9:06 AM


beachmom1 said...
A few more details on Kerry's absense, that I just discovered:

Senator Kerry was campaigning for president in April 2003. As is customary with such things, which happen to Democrats and Republicans alike, Mr. Kerry checked with his leadership to make sure he wasn't the deciding vote on this before he okayed his absence. Tom Daschle, Sen. Dem leader at the time, announced from the floor that Kerry was 'necessarily absent' and would have voted 'No' on the measure, which would have then failed 52-48. Kerry's absence did not affect the outcome.

Your argument falls flat, and is really quite petty. And you simply open yourself up to hypocricy if a Republican from the Senate does the same come '07/'08.

This is a matter of public record and is stated in the Congressional Record.

9:11 AM



My only mistake was confusing two wingnuts -- one was confused by the yea vote, while the other bashed Kerry for the no vote, and I combined them into one person. Hey you meet one wingnut, and they all start looking the same . . .


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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
5. Here's what I could find
I think there was body armor in the famous $87 billion supplemental bills - but this could not be it as Kerry quite famously voted.

Looking at the Thomas roll call of votes and doing a query on the Congressional Record. I could VERY EASILY have missed something because the bills and amendments are sometimes weirdly described. In all cases, Kerry's vote would clearly not have made a difference and he went on record. It is very normal for Presidential candidates to do this - co-ordinating to return for close votes.

S RES NO. 1317 (July 22, 2003)

(includsed for completeness)
This was a Byrd amendment to the Homeland Security bill that add money for first responders, including the National Guard. Some money was specifically for body armor. This passed and Kerry was not present.

“Mr. REID. I announce that the Senator from North Carolina (Mr. EDWARDS), the Senator from Florida (Mr. GRAHAM), the Senator from Massachusetts (Mr. KERRY), the Senator from Vermont (Mr. LEAHY), and the Senator from Connecticut (Mr. LIEBERMAN) are necessarily absent.
I further announce that, if present and voting, the Senator from Massachusetts (Mr. KERRY) and the Senator from Vermont (Mr. LEAHY) would each vote ``yea.''
The PRESIDING OFFICER (Mr. TALENT). Are there any other Senators in the Chamber desiring to vote?
The yeas and nays resulted--yeas 43, nays 50, as follows: - Allen voted against it.


S RES 1817 (October 2, 2003)

This may be the amendment referred to – it increased the money for body armor – reducing money to things like paying $1 million for one Iraqi family needing witness protection. This was Dodd’s amendment.

(Bonus – a very callous Steven’s comment:
“Now, I have been overseas. I said the other day, I remember going overseas, and on the way I bought boots. I did not like my boots. I bought shirts. I did not like my shirts. I bought gloves I would rather wear. Kids are kids, and they are going to buy what they want. This idea that they have to buy armor , armor is available on the basis of how rapidly it is produced. And we have put up money in here, more than enough to buy everything to be produced in this time that he mentioned between now and--what?--about 5 months away.”

This bill was tabled on a party line vote – Kerry was not present, but alone out of those not there indicated he would vote “nay” Allen voted “yes” (This was tabled – 49 – 37 , with 14 not voting)

Mr. REID. I announce that the Senator from Delaware (Mr. CARPER), the Senator from North Carolina (Mr. EDWARDS), the Senator from Florida (Mr. GRAHAM), the Senator from South Carolina (Mr. HOLLINGS), the Senator from Hawaii (Mr. INOUYE), the Senator from South Dakota (Mr. JOHNSON), the Senator from Massachusetts (Mr. KERRY), the Senator from Connecticut (Mr. LIEBERMAN), and the Senator from Arkansas (Mr. PRYOR), are necessarily absent.
I further announce that, if present and voting, the Senator from Massachusetts (Mr. KERRY) would vote ``nay.''



S. Con. Res. 84 (November 21, 2003)
SENATE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION 84--RECOGNIZING THE SACRIFICES MADE BY MEMBERS OF THE REGULAR AND RESERVE COMPONENTS OF THE ARMED FORCES, EXPRESSING CONCERN ABOUT THEIR SAFETY AND SECURITY, AND URGING THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE TO TAKE IMMEDIATE STEPS TO ENSURE THAT THE RESERVE COMPONENTS ARE PROVIDED WITH THE SAME EQUIPMENT AS REGULAR COMPONENTS -- (Senate - November 21, 2003)

Mr. DASCHLE (for Mr. KERRY) submitted the following concurrent resolution; which was referred to the Committee on Armed Services


Despite this fact, the equipment of the National Guard and Reserves has been substandard when compared to the equipment available to members of the active units for far too long. This peace-time nuisance is a mortal danger in war. It is inexcusable that any U.S. units, whether active or reserve, would deploy to a combat zone without the latest equipment and technology.
But we have heard concerns about National Guard and Reserve units lacking the latest gear or technology: helicopters lacking basic defense systems; Humvees without the additional armor needed to protect their occupants; and inadequate supplies of personal body armor . It is a dereliction of duty to send anyone into harm's way without basic protective gear.
The Concurrent Resolution submit today, expresses our concern for the welfare and security of all the men and women of the United states military, whether they serve in the active duty military, the National Guard, or the reserves. If this is to truly be a ``total-force,'' then we must also commit ourselves to equipping it as such. The courageous, young men and women of our armed forces deserve no less.

S. 1991 (December 9, 2003)

By Mr. DASCHLE (for Mr. KERRY (for himself and Mr. KENNEDY)):
S. 1991. A bill to require the reimbursement of members of the Armed Forces or their family members for the costs of protective body armor purchased by or on behalf of members of the Armed Forces; to the Committee on Armed Services.
(At the request of Mr. DASCHLE, the following statement was ordered to be printed in the RECORD).

Mr. KERRY. Mr. President, it is the responsibility of the military departments to ``organize, train, and equip,'' the armed forces of the United States. Yet, reports indicate that nearly a quarter of the 130,000 U.S. troops in Iraq still wait for the latest ``Interceptor'' body armor , which is a Kevlar vest with ``small-arms protective inserts''--boron carbide ceramic plates--that protect critical organs from weapons fired by assault rifles like the Ak-47s favored by Iraqi insurgents.
While the Congress has taken measures to provide the latest personal protective gear to all U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, over the last several months we have heard alarming reports of family members scurrying to buy bullet-proof vests to send to their loved ones in Iraq. Military families are patriotic and selfless. Their devotion is no less than that of those serving in harm's way. They have more than enough to worry about, let alone whether or not they can find and buy the gear that might save their child's life. This is the responsibility of the Department of Defense, plain and simple. There is no excuse for their failure.
On November 19, 2003, acting-Secretary of the Army Les Brownlee admitted to Congress that the administration failed to provide basic equipment, like body armor , to all of our forces in Iraq because, as he put it, ``Events since the end of major combat operations in Iraq have differed from our expectations and have combined to cause problems.'' The Washington Post reported recently that, ``Going into the war in Iraq, the Army decided to outfit only dismounted combat soldiers with the plated vests, which cost about $1,500 each. But when Iraqi insurgents began ambushing convoys and killing clerks as well as combat troops, controversy erupted.'' I ask unanimous consent that the full text of this article be included in the RECORD.
Stories abound of family members, fathers and mothers, wives, and others paying for personal body armor out of their own pockets and shipping the much needed equipment to Iraq. Consider the case of Mimi McCreary of Victorville, CA, whose son Olaf received his bullet-proof vest not from his reserve unit, but from his colleagues on the Clinton, SC, police department. Or consider the 120 members of the National Guard from Marin County, CA, who were unsure of when their body armor would be made available. Instead of letting their neighbors go off to war, the men and women of law enforcement in Marin County donated more than 60 vests so that they would have ``at least some protection.'' Or consider Army Specialist Richard Murphy of Sciota, PA, whose parents, Susan and Joe Werfelman, purchased the ceramic plates missing from their son's vest. According to Murphy's step-father, he ``called us frantically three or four times on this . . . We said, ``If the Army is not going to protect him, we've got to do it.''
We owe Mr. and Mrs. Werfelman and Mrs. McCreary and every other military family an incredible debt of gratitude. They raised children who believe in this country and are risking all in service to it. The last thing we should ask of them now is to
take money out of their own pockets to buy the gear their kids should have had in the first place. But that's exactly what poor planning has led to.
The legislation I introduce today with Senator KENNEDY requires the Department of Defense to reimburse family members who paid money out of their own pockets to provide the personal body armor that the government failed to provide our troops. Lives and blood will always be the cost of war. But it is a dereliction of duty to send anyone into harm's way without basic protective gear, and it is disgusting for family members to have to take this burden of outfitting their loved ones for war. This grateful Nation must make right by those family members and reimburse their expenses in providing these materials to their sons and daughters, husbands and wives. Let families send pictures and letters from home. The Department of Defense should provide the gear.
There being no objection, the letter was ordered to be printed in the RECORD, as follows:

Body Armor Saves Lives in Iraq


AMENDMENT NO. 3312, AS MODIFIED (June 14, 2004)

Dodd’s amendment

SEC. 1068. REIMBURSEMENT FOR CERTAIN PROTECTIVE, SAFETY, OR HEALTH EQUIPMENT PURCHASED BY OR FOR MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES FOR DEPLOYMENT IN OPERATIONS IN IRAQ AND CENTRAL ASIA.
(a) REIMBURSEMENT REQUIRED.--(1) Subject to subsections (c) and (d), the Secretary of Defense shall reimburse a member of the Armed Forces, or a person or entity referred to in paragraph (2), for the cost (including shipping cost) of any protective, safety, or health equipment that was purchased by such member, or such person or entity on behalf of such member, before or during the deployment of such member in Operation Noble Eagle, Operation Enduring Freedom, or Operation Iraqi Freedom for the use of such member in connection with such operation if the unit commander of such member certifies that such equipment was critical to the protection, safety, or health of such member.
(2) A person or entity referred to in this paragraph is a family member or relative of a member of the Armed Forces, a non-profit organization, or a community group.
(b) COVERED PROTECTIVE, SAFETY, AND HEALTH EQUIPMENT.--(1) Subject to paragraph (2), protective, safety, and health equipment for which reimbursement shall be made under subsection (a) shall include personal body armor , collective armor or protective equipment (including armor or protective equipment for high mobility multi-purpose wheeled vehicles), and items provided through the Rapid Fielding Initiative of the Army such as the advanced (on-the-move) hydration system, the advanced combat helmet, the close combat optics system, a Global Positioning System (GPS) receiver, and a soldier intercommunication device.
(2) Non-military equipment may be treated as protective, safety, and health equipment for purposes of paragraph (1) only if such equipment provides protection, safety, or health benefits, as the case may be, such as would be provided by equipment meeting military specifications.
(c) LIMITATIONS REGARDING DATE OF PURCHASE OF EQUIPMENT.--(1) In the case of armor or protective equipment for high mobility multi-purpose wheeled vehicles (known as HUMVEEs), reimbursement shall be made under subsection (a) only for armor or equipment purchased during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on July 31, 2004 or any date thereafter as determined by the Secretary of Defense.
(2) In the case of any other protective, safety, and health equipment, reimbursement shall be made under subsection (a) only for equipment purchased during the period beginning on September 11, 2001, and ending on December 31, 2003 or any date thereafter as determined by the Secretary of Defense.
(d) LIMITATION REGARDING AMOUNT OF REIMBURSEMENT.--The aggregate amount of reimbursement provided under subsection (a) for any protective, safety, and health equipment purchased by or on behalf of any given member of the Armed Forces may not exceed the lesser of--
(1) the cost of such equipment (including shipping cost); or
(2) $1,100.
(e) OWNERSHIP OF EQUIPMENT.--The Secretary may provide, in regulations prescribed by the Secretary, that the United States shall assume title or ownership of any protective, safety, or health equipment for which reimbursement is provided under subsection (a).
(f) FUNDING.--Amounts for reimbursements under subsection (a) shall be derived from amounts any amounts authorized to be appropriated by this Act.

This passed 91 – 0 (Kerry not voting , but would have voted “yes”
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Thanks, Karynnj!
I ended up going to the votevets.org website, and the wingnut did have the right link. Tay Tay's explanation above seems to have been about right. I think I got the guy because he is essentially saying NO U.S. Senator can run for president because they will miss votes (and as Tay explained, had his vote been crucial, he would have returned to the Senate to vote). Which means Allen can't run for POTUS. Ha ha!

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. I saw that
I had gone over to play in the Congressional record and hadn't seen Tay's answer before posting.

Tay's answer, as usual was great and to the point. The only relevent point from the thing I did was that Allen voted against it more than once.
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-14-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. That is highly relevent
It shows a pattern of serial neglect on the part of the Junior Senator from Virginia. That is, as ever, not nothing.
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