Battlestar Galactica 1.8 - Flesh and Bone (Discussion/Spoilers)

[Ravenseye]

Summary: They find a cylon in the fleet and capture him. Starbuck gets sent to interrogate him and ends up torturing him/it for about half an hour. The whole time he's messing with her head. Then the President comes over after some f'd up dreams, and gets the info from him they were looking for..then spaces him. Oh yeah and the cylon said that Adama was a Cylon.

Discuss: I continue to enjoy this series. I'm thinking more and more that it is the best science fiction on television today. The only question in my head is how good does it stack up all-time. It's certainly better than the original. Starbuck's torture of the cylon in this episode seemed a bit over the top. I'm sure they're trying to make some sort of parallel to real life, but she kept actually listening to him. Bonding with him to the point she put her hand on his before they spaced him. I don't know, that seemed odd to me.

[Love Bug]

1. He got to her

In spite of herself and her continual statements about his being a "toaster," he did get to her.

I was surprised the President spaced him because she doesn't seem the type. But I don't blame her. The guy had them all running around and it was clear they were never going to get any useful information from him. If you think about it you can see they are not prepared to cut any Cylons any slack -- and that will eventually include Boomer if/when they find out about her.

I'm starting to see where the writers are drawing a lot of parallels between what is going on today (military trials, Abu Garib, etc.) and using that for BG. Good for them.

[Ravenseye]

2. The President's Actions Didn't Surprise Me

I sort of saw them coming for some reason. She has never really seemed all that 'compassionate' when it came to anyone but humans, and as far as even humans...they're a numbers game for her now. I think she's dissasociated in order to stay sane. Here's a woman who was Secretary of Education for the Colonies. 12 prime Colonies, and then numerous outlying worlds. (We know this from Boomer saying she was from Troy...implying it was a small mining planet) If they were all as advanced as Caprica then we're looking at somewhere probably between 5-10 billion per planet. Maybe more. So now she's the President of those same colonies but the total population of her species has gone from over 100 billion to under 50 thousand. That's pretty stark.

I guess the cylon did get to Starbuck but it still surprises me. I guess the fact that she had her idols in her locker shows that she is indeed spiritual and thats why he 'attacked' her that way. How would the cylon know that though?

Also another question. At the end the Cylon says to the President "Adama is a cylon". I think everyone assumes he means Commander Adama, but what about his son Apollo. He's an 'Adama' as well (and was noticably absent from this entire episode). Could he have been refering to Apollo?

[YankeyMCC]

3. spoiler...

I'm not sure about the etiquette here but the show was pretty recent people might want to be warned.

I wasn't surprised at what the President did. I was surprised at her apparent outrage at the torture and soft approach to the cylon when she met him because she's been shown to be hard line in the past. The terrorist incidents and the whole thing about Presidents not having to explain themselves.

WHen in the end she killed the cylon that made it all make sense to me. Which proves how good these writers are they keep characters complex but consistent.

Same thing with Starbuck. From what we know about her it makes sense that she would be tough on her prisoner and yet still have a "human" connection and response.

I wonder what the implications of the president's dream and this stuff about seeing the future are? I'd really hate it if they made her a cylon but I don't know how to explain the connections between her dream and actual events.

[Ravenseye]

4. Don't look online then.

All the episodes have been broadcast in the UK so don't peak if you don't want to know. I haven't read them to keep my mind fresh, but I do know they are out there, and I have a feeling that many thigns are explained and that from what I understand there are numerous storyline cliffhangers.

If I had to guess then I'd say that the alternative drug that the President is taking for her cancer is making her semi-prescient. It gives her glimpses into the future which she has a hard time interpreting. Something that could be a boon to the surviving colonials.

I don't think she's a cylon, but who knows right? I think if it's not drug induced then it's gotta be more evidence of Cylon TP - and the Cylon she eventually spaced was communicating with her.

I'd lean away from that though because the whole thing the cylons are selling is that they are 'people' or even 'human beings' as well, now. If that's the case, and they're not just utterly lying, then they wouldn't be sending mental images into a humans head because that's not something a human would do.

I think that the Cylons aren't after simply destroying all humanity. Something else is going on here, they have some other goal. The fact they wanted Boomer on Caprica to get Helo to fall in love with her and have sex with her (most likely to get her pregnant no?) then it's not just about elimination.

[YankeyMCC]

5. Are they trying to replace humans?

Are Boomer and Helo playing out their version of Adam and Eve?

The way the cylon Starbuck was interogating kept saying - it's all happened before it'll all happen again. Maybe there's a cycle, real or imagined by the cylons (maybe they've already been to Cobol) where one race creates the next which then rebels and replaces the first...on and on....

[Ravenseye]

6. That's An Interesting Idea

I did notice that comment about it happening before and happening again.

I tend to lean though towards the cylons, particularly this cylon, sitting outside of time. Not literally, but able to see the past and future. Adding in not just the whole concept of polytheism versus monotheism, but fate versus choice. Though it would be of course possible it's a continual cycle, that doesn't really jive with me. It seems more that we're looking at a battle of how the two percieve space and time.

The Humans are polytheistic, but generally secular humanists and not very religious who see the world as a place where they have free will. Even their prayers end with 'so say we all', a pluralistic and very humanisitc statement. It's not 'So say the gods' but a declaration that what they're stateing is supported by themselves.

The Cylons are monothesitic and generally very fundamentalist as far as their religion goes. The submit themselves to god and finish their statements with 'by your command' (though we've only seen that once in this series). They believe in the direction and command of the one god, and submit themselves to the belief that they don't have free will, but are in fact fated by god to do certain things. Their declaration of 'by your command' is one of supplication to their god, who tells them what to do.

So I see the cylon saying that it happened before, and it'll happen again being one of his humility before god and god's plan. He sees gods plan in the past, and he sees it in the future.

[YankeyMCC]

7. Interesting

way to put the two view points.

Wow, this is a good show. Anything that results in people thinking and talking about things like this...just great.

[Ravenseye]

8. They Put Alot of Thought Into It

You're right you can tell. I am thinking this is the single best season of science fiction television in recent memory. I think it's better than any season of any Star Trek franchise, the original BSG and Buck Rogers, B5, Farscape, SG-1 or Atlantis...etc...Not only is it good sci-fi but it's just so well written, and the ongoing plot points developing.

We're 8 episodes in, and if you include the original 4 hours of the miniseries as 4 episodes, puts us at 12. We're half a season in and less than a month has passed in their time, yet we're seeing plot development.

Compare that to something like 'Lost' which is basically doing the same slow character development, but the plot points there are all screwy, some brought up in one episode and not mentioned again EVER. Maybe Lost will eventually make sense, but I'm starting to think that the concept for it was summed up as 'fucked up island' and there isn't a big overarching tie in.

With BSG you really get the feeling that everything said is important and that there are multiple plot lines that are converging and diverging but all tied together.

You want to know whether the cylon meant Commander Adama or Captain Adama is a cylon, whether it was just to screw with their heads, or if it's true. Or if it's true, but to make them think he's screweing with their heads.

Like last episode. Six comes in the flesh, says Baltar worked with the cylons and he's a traitor. They lock him up, but then find out that the evidence was falsified, and that the woman has dissapeared. As six said in Baltar's head at the end....now he's had his trial by fire. They trust him. They think that someone is out to discredit him and his work. Nobody will be able to really come forward in the future and say 'Don't trust him' because they'll immediately rush to his defense next time.

So they want Baltar to continue his work on the Cylon detector (which works now as shown in this episode) and they want everyone to trust him and think the Cylons fear him, when really they're totally controlling him. The good part is you just KNOW that it's gonna come into play at some point, but how is the question.

[Technowitch]

9. In my not-so-humble opinion, the new BSG is the best TV SF I've seen, ever

Last night, my spouse and I got into a lengthy discussion of the various humanoid Cylon models we've seen, and how each seems to embody some aspect of humanity. Each with its particular traits and flaws.

We have "Six", aka Ms. Godfrey -- who is fixated on the strange Cylon notion of God, but she's also apparently obsessed with the concept of "love". "Did he say he loved you?" from this last episode, asking Boomer if Helo had actually said the words.

Then there's the PR guy, Leoben Conoy -- more cynical and hardline than his compatriots. In blowing himself up, he proved that he's perfectly willing to use violence to achieve the Cylon goals (whatever these may be).

The third one is Aaron Doral (I believe) -- easily the most dangerous of the Cylons we've seen so far, precisely because he does as Adama warned. He mixes truth and lies in an effort to sow far greater destruction than a mere nuke would've. As we were shown in this episode, he seems to have gotten to President Roslin and Starbuck both. He's the Philosopher.

And the fourth one, Boomer -- The most 'human' of the bunch, both the one on Galactica and the one on Caprica appear to be breaking their 'programming'. The Galactica Boomer desperately doesn't want to be a Cylon but fears she might be, while the Caprica one knows she is, but seems to be engaging in an act of defiance. She seems to be duty and loyalty personified.

I have to wonder what the other eight Cylon models will be like.

And yes, I really love the series.

[YankeyMCC]

10. You're lucky

My spouse wont go near science fiction TV shows. I have to come to places like this to talk about it. :)

[Ravenseye]

11. My Wife Normally Hates Them

She avoids the television when I'm watching sci-fi. Every Friday night though she comes downstairs at 9:55 and sets up on the couch to watch Battlestar Galactica with me.

[Beetwasher]

13. I Wonder If The "Boomer" Model Will Turn Out To Be "Defective"

I have a feeling Boomer is going to reject her cylon masters and help the humans. That seems to be what they were getting at after she was told to kill Helo. She may be developing a will of her own.

I agree, best Sci Fi series ever...

[Technowitch]

19. I don't think she was told to kill Helo right away...

...but I agree, clearly she seems to be trying to save him now. Six said they were going to set up a cabin somewhere "with all the comforts" -- and that Boomer had to get Helo to love her. It was if she failed to accomplish this soon enough, she'd have to dispose of him.

And for whatever reason, during her run back to him, she's decided she doesn't want to do that.

So, yes, I do think she's going to try to traitor to the Cylons...the question is whether she'll succeed. Also, let's not forget, we have two Boomers -- both of which aren't happy about who and what they are.

[Beetwasher]

20. Yup, Both Of Them Seem To Have a Conscience Of Sorts

Maybe the "Boomer" model is "defective"...

[Beetwasher]

12. When Did They 1st Encounter This Cylon Model (The One Being Interrogated)?

Did that happen in the first episode? I forgot, what was the deal with that?

[YankeyMCC]

14. During the Miniseries

They found him at Ragnar - the Space Station weapons depot they went to right after the attack.

[Beetwasher]

15. And What Happened?

How did he die? What did he do? I forgot!!! Thanks!

[YankeyMCC]

16. Ok real quick..

They found him there...this is before they knew cylons could look like humans - in fact I guess it was this encounter that revealed that fact to them.

He was giving them a story that he was an arms dealer and had come to steal weapons to sell. He and Cmdr Adama got trapped away from the rest of the Galactica crew and had to make their way back out through a maze like path through the station.

The station was built inside a "storm" a nebula or something were some kind of radiation was emitted that affected Cylon technology. The cylon appeared to be getting sicker and sicker (he was being affected by the radiation) and Adama realized he was a cylon.

There was a fight and Adama won, smashing the cylon's head with a pipe or something. Apparently the radiation had affected the cylon enough to weaken him enough for Adama to win. Or of course maybe "letting" Adama win is some part of the cylon plan.

[Beetwasher]

17. Ahh! Yes! I Remember Now! THANK YOU!!!

:thumbsup:

[Technowitch]

18. It was also during Adama's long talk with this one...

...that he came to the realization that this particular Cylon model was particularly incidious. "Gets inside your head." "Mixes lies and truth."

That's why of the Cylons we've seen so far, this one appears to be the most dangerous. He makes you doubt yourself, turns you against your allies, and so on.