I need religious guidance; I'm very worried about doing the wrong thing.

[Taxloss]

As you all know by now, I'm an atheist. However, as few of you know, I used to be a raging theist. I was devoutly Christian for a decade, from my mid teens until a few years ago.

I wasn't a fundie. I was a "low Anglican" - in that I believed in a simple, pure faith, disapproved of proselytisation, and wanted to worship in a simple, humble environment away from icons, idols and mummery. Intensely protestant.

My rise from faith we don't need to examine - suffice to say, it was gradual, and profound. It was like the end of Fight Club, when the skyscrapers blow up and collapse one by one in the background. I was about to convert to Quakerism when the final elements of any belief in a divine being disappeared. Doubt disappeared.

My problem is this.

I was most devout at university - a chapel warden, three services a week. We worshipped in one of the most wonderful buildings in England - the chapel of Clare, my college.



It was a small, close community. We knew and loved each other. I lived about ten metres away from that building; I met Mrs Taxloss outside the chapel. It is a place that has enormous personal significance to me and Mrs Taxloss.

Now, six years later, I intend to marry and would like to marry in the chapel. I am eligible because of my service as a warden, but college does not know that I have stopped believing in God. (Mrs Taxloss is also atheist, FYI.)

I am not going to lie about my beliefs, nor will I let my wedding be based on a deceit. But before I go through the suitability interviews, I feel like I should call the Dean, lay it on the line, and see if it's still OK to be married under a Christian rite in a place I still feel a deep connection with.

Should I call him and find out, or wait for the interviews?

[trotsky]

1. From what I understand about the UK and Europe...

Not only is atheism much more common than here in the U.S., a whole lot of atheists just go through the motions of religion out of tradition.

If that is the case, you might just find the Dean to be most understanding.

Basically it's your personal call. Will it cause you greater discomfort to lie, or to not get married in this place you love?

[Taxloss]

6. We want so much to marry there.

But I can't lie, even if it's to a false God. I'm not saying I'm some kind of saint who never lies, but this is very important to me. I'm just putting off what I suppose might be inevitable.

[Book Lover]

2. Speak frankly to the Dean

It's not likely, I suspect, that you are the first former warden in this circumstance. But be prepared should he deny your request, particularly if you ask for a Christian rite.

[Taxloss]

7. It has to be a Christian rite, that's the point.

It we could wed civilly there, we would, but it's a Christian chapel.

I really need to come clean. It's becoming clearer and clearer.

[Book Lover]

9. I see

I googled Clare College (we are talking about Clare College, Cambridge, yes?) and I see the gardens are celebrated. Perhaps the gardens, or the lawn beside the chapel, instead of the chapel itself? Or is it the chapel itself that is the point, rather than Clare itself?

[Taxloss]

10. You know, that's a very, very good point.

I wonder if the gardens are licensed for weddings?

[Book Lover]

12. A quick search at

http://www.theweddingguide.co.uk/articles/16.php indicates that it is not, but of course I am not familiar with local customs, place names, etc. And as the website says, these regulations change often.

I didn't realize that weddings in England and Wales were so regulated; in California (as long as you are a different-sex couple) you can get married anywhere, by anyone (any person can be granted a one-day license to marry two specific people).

[Taxloss]

13. If only it were so here.

Here, you must remember, church and state are not separated. The Church of England has legal clout.

[Az]

3. Difficult dilema

First let me ask if you think any other chapel will do? There are many Unitarian Universalist congregations around and their facilities may be worth checking out. Some can be quite stunning. And the UUs have no problems with atheists.

Personally being married under a rite I no longer believe in would not be the basis I would want to start my life with someone I cherish. Although I understand the emotional connection to the place, the rite would still exist in my mind as a lie and not the basis of expression of love I have for the one I choose to spend my life with.

Ask if you can have a UU minister perform the service. They can tailor the ceremony to your particular beliefs. This may be a way to alleviate some of the impact.

The words committing you to the person you love should reflect your real feelings and not some false ceremony you no longer have commitment to. IMHO.

Good luck and congrats!

[Taxloss]

8. Thanks, Az. It's not that we want to marry in a Christian chapel,

it's that we want to marry in Clare chapel. If it was ruled out, we'd have a civil wedding in a registry office - probably Marylebone town hall.

And your words on the truth or falsity of the rite ring true. I suspect that the dean will forbid the union at Clare when I tell him I no longer believe; if he wants an excuse, he can merely say that the archbishop would not grant a licence.

I feel there is no hypocrisy in my actions if I am honest. I have not yet been honest. I need to be honest.

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. Taxloss, by an amazing coincidence, I was at Clare too

although I was an atheist, and so not involved in the Chapel. I still know someone well who was a warden, and who is now a minister (non-Anglican), and who may well still have contact with people in the chapel. If you want me to ask his advice, I'd be glad to.

I think I know of some people who have got married there where only the non-Clare partner is religious, so I'd think there's a reasonable chance.

Actually, maybe it's not a coincidence - we know that Clare was a good liberal place, that always agonised about ideological soundness ... ;-)
I'm guessing you were there a few years after me, from your description of the timeline.

[Taxloss]

5. Amazing! What a coincidence.

Clare people turn up everywhere. There was one on Dr Tatiana's Sex Guide To All Creation on C4 earlier this evening.

Your offer of contacts, though extremely kind, is unnecessary since I have all the leverage I need, and probably more than I deserve. It's a basic question of whether I am commiting a deceit. Openness is probably the best and only approach, but you know how it is about "creating a scene".

By the way, the present dean strikes me as a traditionalist.

[fshrink]

11. Hard to give advice.

Looks like you kept the "protestant" core by pushing it to the limit. "Deceit", "lie"... You can however consider things not under the belief angle, but under that of the meaningful connections with your history, your companion and your life. This is extremely personal business that concerns no one but you and Mrs. Taxloss. No one really needs to know. You don't lie to yourself or to her and the others are probably too caught up in their closed system to be accessible to your logic and wishes. Basically, you are now the master of your own ritual... But the protestant surviving in you needs to come clean (which has good sides!)

[Taxloss]

14. You're right, but the whole episode has exposed what a weird business this

is. Asking a non-existent being to approve an abstract union in the centre of a lavish ceremony. It's all very odd.

[Synnical]

15. Oh, just call and talk to him!

Stop being so meek!

:)

That is, if you're comfortable doing so.

-Cindy in Fort Lauderdale - taking a break from packing boxes (moving two miles east on Saturday)

[A HERETIC I AM]

16. There isn't any reason in the world why you shouldn't be able to marry in

a place you feel is special and that you both have a history with. Go and talk to the Dean.

You have shed your belief in the xtian myth but i might surmise you and The future Mrs. Taxloss have not shed every ounce of spirituality, am i correct? May i suggest that you approach the Dean with the intent of making it clear to him the following:

1) This building has ENORMOUS importance to you and your affianced.
2) You would like your marriage ceremony to take place there.
3) You are insisting on an alternate marriage ceremony that fits with your evolving spiritual point of view.
4) You no longer consider yourself a Christian but the central core teachings of Christ (Do unto others, be charitable, etc.) are things you hold dearly. (I am guessing you feel that way)

Perhaps if you gently emphasize #4, the man would see his way clear on allowing you to use the chapel.

I agree with AZ in his post above that a Unitarian minister might be your best bet. Ask the Dean if that is possible.


Best of luck regardless of where you tie the knot and many, many happy returns of the day!!!